[Withay]

I know that I, as I imagine many of you have, have been following the case of the FLDS sect in Texas. The attached article was brought to my attention as a subject for discussion.

I urge everyone to give great thought and consideration to their replies. Remember, we only know one side of the story - that which the media shares with us.

The ground rules are very simple. Keep all responses polite and respectful.

Hearing For Children At Polygamist Retreat Grinds To Halt - News Story - KXAS | Dallas

[tvs4]

I think from what the media tells us it is impossible to know if these kids should go back "home". Maybe many of the mothers are great moms and the dads good dads - hard to tell with a case load of 400+ and they can't even determine whose child is whose. It seems to me what touched off the case was that a girl was pregnant allegedly by 50 year old man. Allegedly there are other pregnant girls (teenage girls) too with confirmed tests. So who are the fathers of those girl's children? Maybe anoter teen (well then no matter what we think it maynot be illegal. It might also be legal in TX for a girl to marry at 16 with concent and maybe her parents concented and again then there is no legal issues to keep the kids away. But, I'm thinking there might be something to the older girls be taken advantage of sexually ... does that mean the smaller children are in danger? without seeing the real evidence it is hard to say.

I do think that after the AWFUL Waco incident in the 1990s that Texas is going to move the kids first and ask questions later. I'm not compairing this group to the Waco group in anyway except they were both "closed" socieities that isolated many of their members and had very strong religous convictions and strong leaders. Please don't think I'm labling all the FDLS as Waco like in terms of mentality. But Imagine if Texas didn't pull the kids out and then another Waco like incident happened. We'd be up in arms they didn't do "something". So while I feel sorry for families if they are truely loving, safe families until a judge can decide that I'm glad the kids are safe. I think texas is operating in the "once bitten twice shy" mode and personally I'm glad they are watching over the kids and from the number of lawers for the children, mom, etc, I think the truth will eventually come out and the kids will be kept safe - however that is.

[AuntT]

I think whichever way this goes, it is so sad.

I was telling my DH the other day that the sad thing is that 18 year old girls may have their babies taken away for something that they have no idea is wrong. Then it made me realize that all of the women who have grown up in that environment don't know either. It would be like us going to another country where children are married very young and telling them it is illegal and wrong. Don't get me wrong, I do not think what is going on is okay. But, I see the dilemma CPS is facing regarding the young mothers.

I just don't know how the state is going to handle the workload from these children. And how do you change the thinking that has been ingrained into these girls and women in order to reunify.

So sad

[stevenstwin]

I'm hopeful that the will be able to return these children to their mothers, but I think that is going to have to be based on a lot of work - what are the attitudes and parenting skills of the women? Are these children going to end up in danger again? And I think whichever way it goes, they are going to need a LOT of long term therapy and counselling. I'm not thinking that a lot of the parents will be eager to agree to that. The LEAST appealing alternative is long-term foster care; if they can't go back to their mothers, I think adoption should be accomplished as expediently as possible.

[chevyjewel]

From the link:

"They deny children were abused."

Of course they deny it, because they don't believe a grown (at times elderly) man marrying multiple children and making babies with all of them at the same time is abuse.

Despite the fact that CPS is having a tough time finding homes for all the children right now that's a temporary issue. Sending the kids back would condemn them permanently to a life full of brainwashing and abuse. Many of them will grow to perpetuate the abuse themselves and the cycle will continue.

The cycle needs to be broken, now. Just as freedom of religion is part of what makes our country great, so is the right for children to live their childhoods as happy healthy CHILDREN. If the two issues clash, the law needs to take the side of the kids and protect them first and foremost.

[Yash]

chevyjewel,

I agree with you. The children need to be protected first.

[Forever_family]

This is so embarrasing and I'm only saying this once and only anonymously on this board. I have a distant relative who was the former prophet of the FLDS group. I am not and never have or wanted to or thought of being a polygamist FIRM feelings against that...just had to make that clear ! However, my Grandma, mom and dad went to meet the "prophet" because my grandma needed some family history information. After what I learned through them through first hand accounts, this removal is the only shot these kids will have at any kind of a "normal" life. They have been brainwashed so it is hard to be angry even at most of the adults but every one of my foster children's parents were also victims of abuse, doesn't make it right or okay. I hope that they can really help some of these young girls get out, show these kids there is more to life.

[ranoutofnames]

What a difficult decision Texas has to go through.

Although Texas may be concerned about another Waco, and I do agree children should be protected... it does concern me the state came in and removed 400+ children on the basis of one phone call and they supposedly still haven't found that girl. The media is provided limited information and then the public gets what's left... still...

I guess the part that bothers me the most is they removed hundreds of children and they did not have allegations on most of them.

If they can't "prove" abuse, neglect, or anything illegal against a child to the extent the law requires then the child(ren) should be returned.

Unfortunately due to the number of children that came in at once, lack of specific allegations on many of the children to investigate, slow court system, etc these children/families will likely not be afforded due process in the time frame the law provides... and I don't think that is fair.

Doesn't mean I agree with their beliefs or their teachings.

[AngelArrow]

I think the case should have been handle differently.The kids and families are not used to mainstream sociaty. Weather I agree with the religion or not it does not matter here. I think the media represents only what the public wants to see and hear so this is how the case is represented. I think further investegation should be done before judgements are being passed. I do agree the children need to be safe,but, people also need to take inconsideration these kids background and ubbringing before the word safe comes into play.

[onhazier]

I truly do not see how they could hope to get through even half of those cases in one day with one judge. They needed more judges and should have broken the cases to smaller groups.

Yes, I do think the kids should be removed. The former leader of the FLDS group, Warren Jeffs, is currently in prison. While only convicted of two charges, he was initially facing numerous other charges. (Look him up on Wikipedia for the full list.) The fact that several members of this community have been convicted of such crimes should begin to clue the others in that maybe what they're doing is wrong.

Unfortunately, if they believe they're mandated by God to have child brides and multiple wives, it is going to be an up hill battle to convince them otherwise. If they are couching all this abuse in religious justifications, the whole thing is even uglier and a bigger mess to sort out. Also, this is deeply entrenched and generationally established patterns of behavior.

In many ways, I view the women as victims here too. Why have we seen only one man from the community before the cameras? If these men are concerned for their families, why are they not standing with their wives?

[vegaschristina]

I put "other" as my choice, because with a case this large, there's not going to be a one-size-fits-all answer. Some of those children may be perfectly safe going home. Some may need to be in foster care for a short while, and some may need to be put up for adoption.

I think one of the hard things about the case is that these children have been programed from the beginning to distrust authority and they've been giving different names and parents names to the CPS workers when asked. What a hard case and I'm SO SO glad I'm not the one trying to figure it out.

[chevyjewel]

Adding an update to this story that I came across this morning:

Investigator says girls pregnant in polygamist sect

Investigator says girls pregnant in polygamist sect - Yahoo! News

[Chancey]

Interesting stuff. This is a couple counties away from us! We have told our CW that if they need homes that we can take a couple kids. We'll see what happens...

[Nicole28]

I do feel terrible for the grieving mother's who are missing their children, as do I feel for the children who are missing their mom's and dad's and have anxiety and fear related to their separation.

However, if these mothers are allowing their daughters to be married to men three times their age - which implies that their daughters are also having sex with these men - then I believe that these mothers are directly involved in child abuse. These young girls clearly cannot speak for themselves, and a mother who allows her child to be sexually abused by a man who may even be older than she is NOT acting in the best interest of her child. I understand that these women are presumably being oppressed and do not have much in the way of standing up for themselves, but it truly comes down to what is right and what is wrong - and failing to protect your child, in my heart & mind, is wrong, and it qualifies as abuse.

I see the removal of these children as an opportunity to provide them with a new life - long-term foster care would be an incredible adjustment for these children, but, in the long term, it will prevent these young girls from sexual abuse and it will ultimately be a step towards breaking this cycle of brainwashing and abuse.

[Withay]

Thanks for the update article Chevy.