[Suziebearhugs]

It is a known fact already that at least (20) underage girls in custody ARE pregnant by these older men (PROOF) that these girls are being raped...wether they are consenting or not it doesn't matter they ARE underage and the men involved SHOULD be put in jail and held accountable for their actions with these minors.

It is a FACT that several of the babies taken into custody were sick enough that they had to be hospitalized. Isn't that Medical neglect? Yes.

There IS proof that these children are in danger and since they ALL live together and are all intertwined it was necessary for them to protect ALL the children.

It's not a matter of religion or culture at this point. They are not above the law and when an allegation has been made, DCFS must investigate. It seems like they certinaly had enough evidence of abuse, neglect, endangerment etc or they would have never removed the kids from their homes. It was a major undertaking. The judges and DCFS people are under the microscope of the world here. Do you really think they would make such a GROSS mistake of removing the kids based on religious persecution. I don't think so. They are doing this because there is EVIDENCE that these children are in danger.

Do I want them to go out and raid all FLDS believers and groups around the USA "searching" for more abuse. NO. But if allegations are made I'd expect DCFS to follow through and investigate, just as they did in this situation. Just as they would if someone made allegations against you or I. Wether they be true or false, it's up the state to come in an investigate to make sure the kids are safe.

I applaud the actions TEXAS has taken to protect it's children. I applaud the lengths it is going to try and keep all the kids together and to keep things as normal for them as possible. They are trying to accomodate them as much as possible. They aren't trying to teach them another religion or bring them "into" the world. At this point they are just trying to keep them SAFE.

Only time will tell what will happen from here on out. But for right now...those kids are safe. They are getting medical attention. They are learning that abuse and sexual abuse are AGAINST the law and that there are other people in the world. Nice people, who are ready and willing to help keep them safe.

[hkolln]

I can't believe anyone would be so blind as to think there is NO evidence of child abuse here. There are 13, 14, 15 yr old girls giving BIRTH to babies from men 3x's their age!!! If that happened in our society it would be statutory rape.... and it mean jail time and that IS child abuse! I want these men to be accountable too...once they figure out who fathered these kids by underage girls I would hope they would pursue some type of punishment for the men involved. I just pray they stop the abuse of the innocent kids and they are protected from future abuse.

[Boulderbabe]

As far as I have heard, because the FLDS are refusing to give correct names and family relationships, the state has yet to prove that there are underage women who have given birth.

I simply think the state needs to prove its case. You don't grab 416 kids on hearsay.

Look, I'm opposed to marrying off underage women, just as much as you all are. But as long as the participants in these marriages are above the age of consent, we need to leave them alone. And we need to take kids who are REALLY at risk of abuse or neglect, not take all the kids because we don't like their lifestyle.

[Boulderbabe]

Suzie,

I haven't heard of any sick children (at least not until they were all herded into protective custody, and chicken pox spread). Nor have I heard about any proven pregnancies of minors.

Until we have actual facts, let's avoid the juicy rumors.

[paigeturner]

My question is this: are these sect members the product of religious prosecution or are they hiding their perversions behind religion?

There are religions that advocate female circumcision which is really mutilation of the female body. But that is illegal in this country. Such a practice would be prosecuted regardless of a 13-year-old’s willingness to participate…And what 13 year old would agree to such a procedure? What 13 year old would agree to be married off to a man many times her senior?

This is pedophilia at its worst: because it is sanctioned by “religion”. It makes me sick.

Boulderbabe: the difference between this and other religions is that even though there may be parental influence behind many religions there is still an opportunity for a child to walk away….not so easy in a closed society.

[longingtomeetyou]

be sure your sin will find you out!!
and it did!!
i would take some of those kids in a heart beat im so glad it split wide open

[sethsmommy]

Boulderbabe's argument is that we have no substantiated(correct word?) evidence..that we have heard all rumors thus far.

I think it would have been ok to leave mom's and kids together but again I don't know all the details.

I guess we will see what they find. I still support the state's decision. They may know things we have not been told.

[sethsmommy]

Here is today's Fox news report:


FOXNews.com - Polygamist Sect Mothers Separated From Children After Legal Efforts Fail - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

[Suziebearhugs]

The report I heard was not "rumors" it was on my local news station.

[Suziebearhugs]

Sethsmommy,

Thanks for the updated report.

Yes it's sad that these mothers are seperated from their children. But this happens EVERYDAY in normal DCFS cases. Usually it happens the MOMENT they take the children into custody. It is sad but it is necessary.

I like what it said regarding the possible "false call". It doesn't matter so much what brought them there only What they found there and THAT is the reason why they had to take action to protect these kids.

[chevyjewel]

Along with the DNA testing all the adults and children have had done I wish they would also exhume the bodies of the reported entire FIELD of dead babies they have buried on that property.

Very young girls will often miscarry if pregnant because their little bodies can't handle carrying a baby to term. I would be willing to bet nearly everything I own that many of those babies were born to babies themselves.

Also kudos to child protective services for staying strong and ultimately making the tough decision to separate the mothers from the children. There must be some very good reason to sever those ties for now, I can't imagine the ridicule they are dealing with as a result. Not being able to report WHY they made that decision in the face of such backlash must be extremely frustrating.


We'll probably never know all the details of all these cases because obviously there is confidentiality. NO one here can say kids were abused or not abused but there's got to be something going on because of the turns this has taken thus far. There's got to be loads of evidence to keep that many children in custody. I don't believe this is any sort of religious persecution simply because there are SOOOO many people involved in these cases. One corrupt social worker with a weirdo agenda is one thing but to assume EVERYONE that is involved is this case is making up evidence, or falsifying reports, and that the judges are just going along with it for whatever reason is ludicrous. These cases will more than likely be followed closer to the T than most others because of the scrutiny they're under.

I could care less if the initial call was a hoax or not. People call CPS hotlines all the time for whatever reason. If no abuse is substantiated then the case is dropped, if it is though then the case needs to proceed. That's the way it's always worked. If the adults on that ranch were doing nothing wrong a call like that would likely have caused only a minor disturbance in their lives.

Boulderbabe there are definately proven cases of pregnancy in the children they currently have custody of. There have been additional removals because some of the pregnant "women" on the property being investigated claimed to be over the age of 18 and actually were not. But lying to authorities is all they've ever known so to me anyway developments like that were to be expected.

I feel like you are taking this thread entirely too personally simply because you claim Mormanism as your religion. No one here has said being Morman is bad. What has been confirmed is that this sect of so called Mormans believes girls can marry as young as age 12 and have children with elderly men - that IS bad. There is a reason the founder is in incarcerated. There is also reason to believe many children living in this particular sect have been sexually abused for decades. Just because they call what they've been doing consensual and claim it should be protected because it's their religion doesn't mean it's legal. Just as Islamics don't support extremists that say murder is so much as ordered by Mohammad. Extremists call it their religion but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to carry out illegal acts in it's name.

Frankly I'm floored by your response most BB. You are the first Mormon I've encountered that actually seems to be defending this sect. Most others are furious at the horrific name they are getting because of the correlation this sect has to their own beliefs.

Here's the link about the confirmed pregnancies, obvious it being a CPS case they're not going to give exact details:
Texas polygamist sect is accused of indoctrinating girls - Yahoo! News


And another about how additional girls have been removed because their actual ages have been uncovered:

Sect investigators find more young mums | NEWS.com.au

[tinatyme]

There is an interesting article in the New York Times today.

Faith of Our Fathers - Timothy Egan - Op-Extra Columnist - Opinion - New York Times Blog

Even more interesting are the comments which sounds similar to our discussion.

[pogonorms]

On CNN a former member said that there was no bonding between mother and child. There was very limited one-on-one time; they lived commually. The real mom was called "Mother Catherine" and the other women were "Mother ____." She said the kids bonded to each other for survival.

How horrible. Seems to me that they don't have children, they create more members.

[Suziebearhugs]

Yes that is what I heard as well.

Though I can't believe it would be true for all.

I can understand they treat all of the kids as thier own, as one big family. But surely they have some kind of motherly bond to their children/the children.

[Synesthesia]

Boulderbabe, I'm not sure if i totally agree with you.
I don't think this whole thing has been motivated JUST by their lifestyle.
There are Amish people to consider. There's a handful that are abusive, a handful, which is deeply depressing, but no one is invading Amish villages JUST because of their horse and buggy, no car, no television, no radio lifestyle.
I really do not care about people's religious freedom when it interferes with a child's safety, such as people who believe it is their religious duty to employ a rod on a child for misbehaviour, or the practice in other countries marrying off girls before they hit puberty. Little can be done about those situations here, other than promoting education by people within the community, but in America, regardless of religion, they have to follow American laws.
People who have come from FLDS backgrounds have reported abuse. If there is no abuse, then they can do what they please except for when it comes to breaking the law and in most states polygamy is illegal.
(I don't think it should be if it involves consenting adults, but teenagers? No.
It's a complex situation. Should everyone in America conform to the same rules? Watch the same television shows and eat the same processed food?
People have the freedom to do what they want, but not if it involves children, whether it's Pearl insisting that part of his religion is the rod or groups who practice FGM.

Though sometimes you got to wonder if something like this makes it worse in a way. In order to save children from a life style they may be totally used to and see as normal even if there are elements of abuse, they have to be taken from what they know and introduced ti something else.
But, Dr. Bruce Perry is involved. He worked with children from the Waco incident.