[Boulderbabe]

Hi Angel,

Sorry if I misread you. Yes, I agree. If there is sexual abuse of minors, that's terrible and has to be stopped. Otherwise, we should leave them alone...

[Boulderbabe]

Helen,

It's pretty insulting to say "read up on the FLDS way of life" to me. Not only have I read up on it, I've spent time in communities where there are FLDS. My dad's family is from rural Utah and I've spent many summers there. I've also read several books by FLDS, including Dorothy Allred Solomon's. (How much have you read?)

The notion that these girls are "brainwashed" is not accurate. They are enculturated to a set of beliefs and values---just like anybody else in any other culture. There are plenty of cultures where teenagers are considered adults, by the way, and plenty of cultures where there are arranged marriages. I don't see us invading India, though, even though many Indians believe in arranging marriages for people as children, and then having them start living together as 13 or 14 year olds.

I agree that as long as the FLDS are in the state of Texas, they should be required to comply with Texas' age of consent. But other than that? We should bugger off. Their children aren't any more brainwashed than yours are. They live in a given culture and they take its dictates for granted, just like your kids take your culture and its dictates for granted.

There is NO difference between "our" kids getting pregnant at 13 and their kids getting pregnant at 13. Our kids are enculturated into a culture that vaunts and values promiscuity, sexual libertinism, and the routine sexualization of women. Our culture teaches girls that their primary value is as sexual objects. We don't allow kids that young to marry, but if you ask me, the lack of a ceremony doesn't change much.

[tinatyme]

Originally Posted by aunlanpo

The laws of the land should apply equally for everyone, whether it's for one child at a time or more than 400 at a time. If I even suspect that my neighbor is abusing his eldest daughter, and I report it to the state, CPS begins an investigation, and removes ALL of the children. That isn't based on religion, or race, or gender, or any other thing. A pedophile grooms children to be obedient victims. How is this different? The children are being groomed by their culture. And in that respect, it's not a matter of just not sharing beliefs, the culture is wrong. Some things are black and white. Some things are right and some things are wrong. It's not enough to just say that what works for them, works for them, and what works for me, works for me. No. The laws are specific. They are breaking the law.

So, if you went into their compound, you'd find many cabins, each with a husband, many wives, and a whole bunch of kids. Right? Any "wife" that is underage is being raped by her pedophile "husband." All of the wives are allowing it. It doesn't matter why they are. If they were living in Saudi Arabia, and that was the culture there (it is), then they wouldn't be breaking the law. Like it or not. But they don't live in Saudi Arabia. They live here, and the culture dictates that it is wrong.

And you'd find a whole bunch of kids that are groomed to be raped.

How is there any disagreement in this?

Why in the world wouldn't they take all of the children in that cabin, the same as they'd take all of the children at my neighbors?

And whether the foster care system sucks or not is not the issue. Yes, it sucks, we all know that. But that's what is available to my neighbor's kids. Why should it be an issue for these children? Because they have a different life style than I do? When a child goes from one family into another, the lifestyle is gonna be different. It's usually the other extreme... the kids have had less rules, more freedom, etc. That doesn't bother anyone. These kids are just coming from the other extreme.

And as for the mothers going with the children... what? Should my neighbor's wife go with her children, even though she stood by and permitted her children to be raped? No! EVEN if she's a wonderful mother in every other way. In THIS way, she's a HORRIBLE mother, and the children must be protected from her not protecting them from him.

k, off my soap box now.

I am in such complete agreement with you and I can't believe that some people think this is okay. We are not talking about 16 year old girls getting pregnant by their boyfriends. We are talking about 12-18 year old girls getting pregnant by their fathers, uncles, and other old men that have lived with them since they were born. And yes ALL the children need to be removed. Is it okay for them to groom the young boys to be rapist and pedophiles. Is this a healthy environment for the rest of the children? Seriously are there people out there thinking that this behavior is allowed but no other abuse. No physical or mental abuse just sexual abuse. Really.

As for the mothers going along. What? I am all for babies being able to have breast milk. Give the mother a pump but these mothers participated in and probably even at times encouraged the abuse going on at this compound. They might have been victims themselves but that doesn't excuse their inability to protect their children. Before they are allowed continuous contact with their children there needs to be a whole lot of counseling going on or at least monitored visits.

I am not sympathetic to the mothers' situation. They chose this life or they chose to stay and they were responsible for protecting their innocent children (and that includes their young daughters) and they failed.

[sethsmommy]

They say there is evidence of physical and sexual abuse. If so, end of argument in my book. Also, we don't know all the details of this case. I think we have to wait and see what evidence comes out of it. Meanwhile, I see the state is more than justified to protect these kids until it is thorougly investigated. Any adult in this situation should be held accountable too.

[mostfrustrated]

I didn't think the kids, especially the breastfeeding babies should be seperated from their mothers either....until I read that the babies were taught as infants not to cry for basic needs. That they are "trained" not to cry by placing their faces in water when they cry. And that their "fathers" spank them as infants repeatedly until they fall asleep from exhaustion. IF these facts are accurate then they should absolutely be removed from their mothers because that is abuse.

I am a breastfeeding mother myself. They thought of being seperated from my baby is horrible. I hope that what I read (try usatoday) is untrue. I did not like what the judge said about BF mothers. That mothers routinely went back to work at 6 weeks pp and the babies were formula fed and all is well. That statement is disgusting.

The truth is that we will never know all the details of the case. We won't know they evidence the state has. (I do hope that the state has crossed their t's and dotted their I's and that this is all worthwhile)

I pray that these children all find their way in life. I pray for these children daily. It is very sad.

Ps- If when these children turn 18 they are not free to leave the compound. Then it is a cult. If these women are not free to leave at anytime....then it is a cult.

One more thing. Where are the "lost boys" I hate to think what has become of them.

[dtmckel]

I totally agree with Sethsmommy. Until we know the whole truth, all the children have to be protected. That is how the system is designed! The investigation is taking a while and will take even longer as long as there is little cooperation. They have to do just as other moms and dads who lose their children to the state.

I have to say that the state is really trying hard to be fair to the people of the ranch and they are trying to respect their religion and way of life. The kids are being sent to shelters that have been preparing for them by changing their menus, taking out certain colors (the color red was mentioned) and other things. THey do not do this for every single child that is brought into the system. Safety is the NUMBER 1 priority. They do try to honor beliefs as long as they are not breaking the law!

As a Texas Resident, I have to follow the laws of the state as well as the laws of the USA. EVERYONE who lives here is required to, regardless of religious beliefs.

[kayb]

Boulderbabe, this seems to be a hot topic for you...but I do resent my post (or me) being called a bigot and intolerant.

I stand by my belief that this group is a cult. That is not being intolerant. Choosing not to accept them into our school's PTA club because of who they are, would be intolerant. and that's just not the case.

Wikipedia describes a cult as follows: (there's more, but I kept it short)

A societal organization that includes the totalitarian thought-reform and life-control techniques scientifically reported as characteristics of a cult (without consideration of beneficial or harmful member outcomes).[3]

A group whose first characteristic was nominally Christian, but not fully based on Christian fundamental beliefs, would be a cult as defined by the Christian counter-cult movement. But if a group is genuinely based on the Christian fundamental beliefs, it would be a sect (in North American English) or a mainstream denomination rather than a cult — unless it was also organized to practice thought-reform techniques.
A group whose second characteristic was organization for thought-reform ("mind control"), would be a cult as defined by the psychological anti-cult movement. By this definition it would be a cult no matter what its religious beliefs (fundamental Christian, nominal Christian, or non-Christian). While thought-reform techniques can be used for the benefit of members (see Cult), the anti-cult movement further believes that some to most mind control cults have psychologically harmful effects on long-term member outcomes

It sounds like you know some people who are flds. and to some point, we all agree on things.

BUT, just because a community is living a Godly quiet life, not bothering anyone else doesn't mean they aren't subject to a investigation for child abuse.

I am on the side of the law and they obviously know more than we do and have probable cause for removing the children. It's just a huge undertaking to take all 450+ kids from a community (compound).

is CPS doing it all right.....probably not, but most likely the best they can do.

[Forever_family]

Boulderbabe,

I have to respectfully disagree with your view of FLDS. I have distant relatives who are FLDS. My mom, my dad, and my Grandma spent time with Roy Johnson, former prophet of FLDS, on his death bed along with some of his wives. He gave several books to my Grandma hoping to "convert" her to their church. So I know from the insider view how sick and twisted their beleif system is. It is set up to abuse women and children. The beleifs have changed drastically from anything resembling LDS theology. Its a very strange belief system based on hell and ****ation if you don't follow absolutely. Fear is huge. My Grandma ended up burning the books but not before she read them.

They beleive in blood sacrifice (its okay to kill somebody if they go against their covenants), they beleive in child brides as a way to help young girls who begin to be interested in boys, they are taught to lie, they are taught to hate the government, they are brainwashed in the true sense. I'm not talking a normal Christian, Catholic, LDS, whatever your religion/culture/values, this is different. They do not have exposure to anything but what FLDS feeds to them.

I am LDS and I too grew up in rural areas out west where there were a few polygamist sects (not FLDS) I had a close friend in college who left one of the sects and I knew a woman who had left the LDS church to become a third wife. My friend was disowned by her family and told me some very distirbing stories. I will agree the adult woman that I knew led a more normal life. So I can see if you are an adult, then I guess if it floats your boat so be it. I think she was sick of being alone..anyway its different for my young friend. She was supposed to be married to an old man. She left...she was so messed up. She truly felt she was going to hell because she didn't follow what she was supposed to do which was marry an old man and have his babies.

There may be more ordinary folkds out there who practice this without abuse but my feeling is that those in a closed compound who are openly marrying off their 13, 14, 15, and 16 year olds to ADULT men, that is nothing short of rape/molestation. Warren Jeffs the current FLDS "prophet" (in jail but from what I understand he is still calling the shots) removed entire families from men who disagreed with him and reasigned them to other men. And these women followed absoultely. If they were told to jump off a cliff they would do that. Thats not normal "brainwashing" like you are asserting. This is dangerous mind control absolute brainwashing. He is accused of molesting children not only arranging child marriages. And that whole thing about the bed in the temple is sick and twisted. I dont understand how you could know pollygamist families and not get that the brainwashing is more then a cultural impression or asserting their values. Its if you dont do this you are going directly to hell, you have no choice but to follow the men in charge (whoever they may be), and the mothers allow all of this to go on.

I don't have sympathy for the adults. I do feel the adults have an inckling this is wrong, they know its illegal, they are taught to lie about it. So if they wanted to stay with their way of life why are they breaking the law? why are they letting their daughters be raped? I dont' know about you but at 13,14or 15 I was never once interested in a 50 year old man. Nor one the age of my father, I could maybe understand if they were arranging marriages between two 14 year olds...that is still wrong in my opinion, but what they are doing is molestation.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by kayb

Boulderbabe, this seems to be a hot topic for you...but I do resent my post (or me) being called a bigot and intolerant.

I stand by my belief that this group is a cult. That is not being intolerant. Choosing not to accept them into our school's PTA club because of who they are, would be intolerant. and that's just not the case.
\

Kay,

Screaming WAY TO GO! and hollering that a religion that you don't know or understand is a cult? That's bigoted and intolerant. You're working on rumors and unsubstantiated gossip. Until there is concrete evidence, we don't label people as guilty of child abuse. And right now, there is no concrete evidence. The call was a fake (it was from a woman in Colorado Springs). And there is no evidence that children are beaten, or that babies are put underwater. Those are rumors, not facts.

As for what is a cult and what isn't: all religions have been called cults at one time or another. It's not up to you to label somebody else's religion as a "cult." And whether or not you agree with their religious beliefs, religion alone is not grounds for removing children.

The Fourteenth Amendment is being trampled to death by people who are spouting the kind of religious intolerance you're spouting here.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by Forever_family

I dont understand how you could know pollygamist families and not get that the brainwashing is more then a cultural impression or asserting their values. Its if you dont do this you are going directly to hell, you have no choice but to follow the men in charge (whoever they may be), and the mothers allow all of this to go on.

I've said that I'm against any sexual activity involving people under the age of consent in Texas.

That said, I don't buy your definition of "brainwashing." If any group that says, "if you don't do this you're going to hell" and "you have to follow the men in charge" is engaged in criminal activity, then Pope Benedict is as guilty as the FLDS. Lots of religions regulate sexual activity. Lots of religions hand down strict mandates. Lots of religions have patriarchal hierarchies. Doesn't mean the state has the right to take their kids away.

[mom2behappy]

it seems some think that because this is their beliefs that makes the entire thing ok, im wondering is what if I as a fosterparent fostered children between the ages of 13 an 17 and made having SEX with me a part of their daily life because i believed that this was ok and that i should be the one to teach them about SEX would it be ok because it was my belief? there is no difference here I don't know about any where else but in NYC the age of consent is 18. anything else falls under statutory rape. i recently had a 13 yr old girl who claimed her boyfriend whos 18 raped her although it was a known fact by the girls fosterparents and the guys parents that the two were dating. the spent time together at each others house spoke on the phone etc. but because mr 18 was seeing another girl. Ms. 14 decides ill tell the cops he raped me. guess what Mr. 18 was arrested for statutory rape u ask y? because he is of legal age for consent she is not. why should this fdls group be any different. same as if i say to a 13 yr old lets have sex and he says yes. i go on to do it, am i justified because he gave me his consent? NO im a sexual offender PERIOD. so are these MEN who repeatedly raped this children.and the moms wether it be their belief or not are just as much to blame. if i allowed my husband to sleep wif my underage teenage daughter because i believed he could teach her more den boys her age or even because i started having sex with him before I reached the age of consent does that make me any less guilty? NO IT SHOULDN'T. they should remove all the children in my home regardless of age and ARREST me as well as my husband regardless of my belief that it was ok.

[Boulderbabe]

Nobody here has defended child sexual abuse. I have said over and over that I think the FLDS should be required to abide by the age of consent in Texas.

But the larger question is this: is it right to remove 416 kids on the basis of one anonymous phone call? Is it okay to remove them, and to traumatize them, with very little evidence of abuse? What worries me is that the state has overstepped its bounds here. There is NO concrete evidence of abuse so far. There is absolutely ZERO indication that every one of the children removed is at risk of future child abuse.

What worries me is that the state is seizing children because the parents are different. If there is child abuse, yes, I agree---remove the kids who are being abused. If there is very significant evidence that other children are at risk, I agree--remove the kids who are at very high risk pending investigation. But I do not think that standard has been met.

Is it a violation of these parents' constitutional rights if their children are seized without concrete evidence of abuse? I think it is. And I think Texas is walking very, very close to that line.

[mom2behappy]

regardless of the call made being fraud for lack of a better word, their are young children on the compound who have not reached the age of consent "married" to older men am i corect so far? their are also babies born to these young ladies again who have not reached the age of consent? correct me at any point.......providing that what i have written thus far is true how can we say there has been no abuse? how can we say that the 12 year old will not fall victim in a yr or the 11 yr old in 2 yrs? we don't know that they won't but do we take the chance with their lives or do we take some precautionary measurements now?

[mostfrustrated]

Carolyn Jessop the escaped FLDS member is the one making the claims of the baby "breaking".

Google it.

It is also being reported by major news sources.

[Forever_family]

I do not understand how anyone can claim there is no evidence of child sex abuse!? There are children who are giving birth to babies.

We all know that the removal and placement of the children would not be done on a whim or taken lightly. There are things we don't know. Also we know that emergency removals happen often and then the children are returned if no abuse is found. Chilren are not returned if there is finding of abuse. So obviously there has been reason to keep them in care or further investigate the situation.

I was listening to NPR and a lawyer FOR FLDS parents talked about 26 specific cases of found abuse that were specifically talked about in Family court in regards to 26 children of the 400 plus that were taken. This is going to take time when people are constantly lying and not giving the full story. They have to figure out who's children belong with whom etc. CPS is doing their job making sure these children are not in danger.