[Boulderbabe]

I grew up Mormon. While we were LDS, not FLDS, I understand some of the theology.

I do not believe that the majority of these children are at risk for any sort of harm. They don't need counseling, they don't need state services. The removal and the way they've been treated by Texas DSS is what is traumatizing them. This kind of "protection," they don't need.

In the first place, DSS has no convincing evidence that these kids are being harmed. If 50 year old men are marrying 16 year old girls (and they may well be), how does that put a nursing baby at any kind of risk? Why remove a 3 year old boy? This is crazy, and I can't believe it is holding up in court.

Second, does DSS have any credible information at all about child sexual abuse? The phone call was bogus--it was placed by a 30 year old woman in Colorado Springs. I haven't seen any credible evidence yet.

Finally, whatever we think, a 16 year old girl is an adult in FLDS culture. I definitely think that the state should step in and demand that these girls be left alone until the age of consent specified in Texas law. But beyond that? The state needs to butt out.

This case is motivated by ethnocentrism and religious bigotry, not child welfare concerns.

[Boulderbabe]

By the way: I have to say, I'm pretty appalled at the way the term "brainwashing" is being tossed around. How are these kids any more brainwashed than any child in any culture?

I don't think these girls are any more brainwashed than, say, Jamie Lynn Spears. I don't think they are any more brainwashed than 8 year old girls who are dressed in sexually provocative clothes their mothers buy at Target, or 10 year olds who are taught that a girl's role in society is to be thin and pretty and to catch a man. I don't think they're any more brainwashed than any 16 year old girl who gets sold a role model like Britney Spears gyrating and moaning on the floor.

These kids are socialized to believe in hard work and an emphasis on family. Their definition of family is different than ours. I agree that the FLDS must be forced to obey the Texas standard for the age of consent. But to pretend that we have the right to snatch these kids away because we don't like their culture or their values? Because WE think we have the right to determine what is "normal" and expose them to that? That, to me, is appalling. These kids are less sexualized than most "normal" teens.

[bethy724]

I don't think all 412 children are in danger. If the accusation is pre-teen or teenage girls marrying older men than that is the population that should be removed.

When is the state going ot prosecute all the adult men that impregnate teenage girls? What are the stats on 12-17 year olds having babies in this country? Does ANYBODY investigate the age of the father? No. I don't agree with what the media writes about this religious sect but believe they are being targeted & the state is using all it's resources to unjustly keeping ALL the children in care. I, again do believe the group accused of being abused (pre teen girls) should remain in the states care until the investigation is complete.

As far as polygamy-how many married men are cheating on their wives? or vice - versa? Are their children being removed because their parents aren't monogomous? They are polygemous if they have more than one woman at the same time. (my opinion) This country would be in shambles.

[AngelArrow]

I think this is a very hard case. I'm neutral. If religion and different beliefs are the main issue here than we should look at other religion and their lifestyles as well. What I think it is sad that closed to 500 children came into our child welfare system again when we all stretch for reunification and family presevation when alot of these families do not know any better if we would be able to teach them these families will may understand instead of ripping them a part, but on the other hand, scociaty tolerates teen pregnency among other things. The point I like to make here is these families dont fit in with mainstream sociaty so we dont want them among us. Should these children given a chance certainly and be exposed to a new way of life certainly, but with their families not in foster homes. Overall, even among the members here on this board they are different opinions, beliefs, religion and even values however, it does not mean we have to punish eachother for our differences so should these families be punished for their indifferences. We all know what Warren Jeffs did was wrong I think we all can agree on that issue, but how many more Warren Jeffs are out they still doing the same thing? I think we need to look at the bigger picture here that is my view.

[Suziebearhugs]

Boulderbabe and Bethy these were my EXACT concerns as well. Which I why I stated that it sounds a bit like religious persecution.

But, No RELIGION has the right to go against the laws of the land we live in. They don't have a legal right to have sex with minors (on grounds of religious beliefs).

On the Dr. Phil show it uncovered a lot of the abuse these woman/children are exposed to. Molestation seemed to be the norm amoungst this group, of young girls from not only the fathers but the other boys on the compound. If a married woman wanted to leave her husband they believe in something called a blood atonement. The husband had the right to KILL his wife and since The texas laws don't require birth/death certificates, it's would be hard to keep track of new babies born to that community and deaths and there would be no investigation into deaths that happen on that compound since they don't have to report it or answer to anyone. That sounds like breeding grounds for lots of abuse/crimes that ARE against the law. They are so isolated from the world that it would be hard for them to find help or even to know that another way of life even exists. And even if they did they would be fearful to leave not only for their LIFE...but also because they would fully believe that if they did they would be going to He!!

I'm sure ALLL polygamists are not this way. But based on reports of woman who did escape from THAT polygamist community it seems there is definate reason to follow through with an investigation.

[aunlanpo]

The laws of the land should apply equally for everyone, whether it's for one child at a time or more than 400 at a time. If I even suspect that my neighbor is abusing his eldest daughter, and I report it to the state, CPS begins an investigation, and removes ALL of the children. That isn't based on religion, or race, or gender, or any other thing. A pedophile grooms children to be obedient victims. How is this different? The children are being groomed by their culture. And in that respect, it's not a matter of just not sharing beliefs, the culture is wrong. Some things are black and white. Some things are right and some things are wrong. It's not enough to just say that what works for them, works for them, and what works for me, works for me. No. The laws are specific. They are breaking the law.

So, if you went into their compound, you'd find many cabins, each with a husband, many wives, and a whole bunch of kids. Right? Any "wife" that is underage is being raped by her pedophile "husband." All of the wives are allowing it. It doesn't matter why they are. If they were living in Saudi Arabia, and that was the culture there (it is), then they wouldn't be breaking the law. Like it or not. But they don't live in Saudi Arabia. They live here, and the culture dictates that it is wrong.

And you'd find a whole bunch of kids that are groomed to be raped.

How is there any disagreement in this?

Why in the world wouldn't they take all of the children in that cabin, the same as they'd take all of the children at my neighbors?

And whether the foster care system sucks or not is not the issue. Yes, it sucks, we all know that. But that's what is available to my neighbor's kids. Why should it be an issue for these children? Because they have a different life style than I do? When a child goes from one family into another, the lifestyle is gonna be different. It's usually the other extreme... the kids have had less rules, more freedom, etc. That doesn't bother anyone. These kids are just coming from the other extreme.

And as for the mothers going with the children... what? Should my neighbor's wife go with her children, even though she stood by and permitted her children to be raped? No! EVEN if she's a wonderful mother in every other way. In THIS way, she's a HORRIBLE mother, and the children must be protected from her not protecting them from him.

k, off my soap box now.

[hkolln]

I don't believe teen pregnancy in our culture is the same as teen pregnancy in the FLDS culture...it's like comparing apples to oranges. They are not doing it because they want to, they are doing it because they have been raised that doing that is their way of life. And it is against the law and I can't believe they said they never knew that! Read up on the culture...the woman are taught to be obedient..they "break" in the babies under running water until they are so exhausted they give up (and just so they are "afraid" of their fathers). It's just so horrible.

Molestation is something they believe in too...from the men in their community and from the fathers. Now everyone can't really believe that is an ok thing?

And if someone has CPS come to their home don't they normally remove ALL the kids from that environment? Why would they leave some behind? And would they allow the parents to accompany them when they do take the children from the home?

I'm just confused why anyone would actually say that what is going with these kids is OK or that the kids should be reunited with their parents....the main thing is CPS has to prove abuse and from what I've heard from ex FLDS people (Dr Phil show and by reading) it seems like abuse is a normal thing for them. It's just sad that the kids are the ones whom have to live like that....and what about the men who are abusing these kids? I wonder what will happen to them?

[kayb]

GO TEXAS!

They are doing what Arizona and Utah are too scared to do!

Actually, I don't even consider FLDS a religion. Mormanizm is the religion, FLDS is the CULT.

The mom's breastfeeding children have been allowed to stay w/ their kids.

Why boys too? One ex-member said she personally knew of Jeffs sodomizing boys under 10.

Lastly, I have a prediction. With these 3 mystery woman in the safe house, they ultimately testify and the cult members will ABANDON these children. Moms and dads will walk away because they now the children have been "tainted" by outsiders and can no longer be CONTROLLED! we'll see.................

[Suziebearhugs]

I think what got me to change my mind is to think of my son who I adopted through fostercare.

I have a great love for his birthmother. She lost her rights because she was living the ONLY life she knew (DRUGS). It was a heritage a way of life that all her family/friends shared. It is the way she was raised and the way her parents were raised. She knew no other life and had no support system to get out of that way of life and realize there can be a life away from drugs. Does that make it right? Does that make it acceptable? No. Does my son deserve better? Yes.

Same with these kids taken in Texas. Just because their parents, and possibly their grandparents grew up with this lifestyle as the one and only way of life, doesn't make it right. Doesn't justify the abuse.

These kids deserve better. The parents deserve the chance of counceling and services offered to them, so they can choose to make a better safe life for their kids, but ultimately if they choose not to make those changes. Then the children deserve better.(Just like any other normal DCFS case) They deserve to see and experience a life outside of the compound and outside of the abuse. The deserve to be in a family,a school, a community and to have the world open to them. So they can learn to live in the world and not HAVE TO return to the only thing they know.

Like I said, I don't believe ALL Polygamists are into such abusive behaviours (I for one love watching BIG LOVE...anyone see that? Not that I want to live that way, I just find it interesting). But when ANYONE crosses the line into abuse the State should step in and take action, even if it includes such a large number of children.

[Boulderbabe]

Angel Arrow,

Why on earth should the state mandate that these children "be exposed to another way of life"? They are living their way of life. As long as no sexual abuse of minors is going on, the government has no business demanding that they be exposed to any other way of life other than their own.

[Boulderbabe]

Helen,

You said, "They are not doing it because they want to, they are doing it because they have been raised that doing that is their way of life."

That is what EVERYBODY does. We are all enculturated into our society's way of life. These kids are no more "brainwashed" by their culture than our kids are.

How many middle class white kids end up pregnant because our culture tells them that being sexual is great, and that teenagers are supposed to be sexually active? How many black teenagers end up pregnant because urban black culture values parenthood and sees it as the most important passage into adulthood? How many Hispanic teenagers end up pregnant at 15 or 16 because they live in a hypersexualized media culture? (It must be a lot, because in my mostly Hispanic neighborhood, people kept asking me if I was Aaron's grandmother. And I was only 35!!)

There may be some FLDS girls who want to leave, and I agree, they should be free to leave. But there are others who believe that living the Principle is the path to salvation. And as long as those girls are over the age of consent in the state of Texas, what they believe is none of our business.

[Boulderbabe]

Kay,

That was probably the most bigoted and intolerant statement I've ever heard. I was flat-out shocked by it.

[Boulderbabe]

Suzie,

Do you believe that YOUR children should also be taken away so they can "live in the world"? If all children need to be exposed to the diverse set of cultures and lifeways out there in the world, do you think the state should have the right to take your kids away and place them in another home so that they can see how other people live?

I think parents have the right to shield their children from American media-based culture, if that is what they choose to do. The state does not have the right to seize children and remove them because it doesn't like the parents' culture or religious beliefs.

[AngelArrow]

i think it should be by choice Boulderbabe, not by force this is what I was trying to say. This is they way of life why disruped it. Do I think the system is sucks no I certainly dont Do I think sometimes the system could handle things differently " yes" i dont agree with some of the laws and politics. I dont agree how these families where exposed by the media.The abuse alligations are certainly a different story and should not be tolerated,but trashing these families because of religion or beliefs, and their values is wrong.

[hkolln]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

Helen,

You said, "They are not doing it because they want to, they are doing it because they have been raised that doing that is their way of life."

That is what EVERYBODY does. We are all enculturated into our society's way of life. These kids are no more "brainwashed" by their culture than our kids are.

Obviously I didn't explain very well. There is a huge difference between our teenagers getting pregnant and their teenagers getting pregnant. They are raised to marry at a young age and they have NO choice....they are fed into their heads that in order to go to Zion they have to do this. And I doubt everyone is bred to have sex at 13 and enter into marriage and have kids!

Maybe read up on the FLDS way of life and culture.