[kiwi]

I know large families can work great and I know families of 14+ who are just wonderful, so large isn't the issue. With biological families, it may be difficult or impossible to not have more children due to the individual beliefs. "Too many" children in that situation is another thread.

But with adoption and foster care there is a thought out CHOICE to add more children. Very intentional actions need to be taken to increase the number of children in your care. I seriously doubt that the children were not put in cages then after #11 came home, the caging - it may be wrong of me to speculate, but I'm betting that all along, at least a few of them were caged. As the number of children in the home increased, I'm sure, so did the number of children in cages. Since we are talking about foster care and adoption, I'm astonished that after only a couple of the children having such extreme behaviors that cages seemed like a good idea that they would CHOOSE to add more children with high risk for that exact behavior. I cringe to think of the justification if they realized this, you know? Like "it's okay that he has autism, if it get's to be too much, we'll just cage him like the others."

You play a good advocate

[momofmykids]

Originally Posted by Lorraine123

But, once a foster child is finalized for adoption, you cannot disrupt that placement without being charged with abuse or abandonment. So, if these parents realized that they were in over their heads but they had finalized on these children, its too late. The state is no longer involved and will not help you without you being charged.

Not so in TN...you can voluntarily disrupt an adoption after finalized...very similar to surrender of parental rights. You don't have to be charged with anything. As a matter of fact, according to a sw friend of mine, she says it happens "all the time". So sad.

[momofmykids]

Originally Posted by kiwi

I I'm astonished that after only a couple of the children having such extreme behaviors that cages seemed like a good idea that they would CHOOSE to add more children with high risk for that exact behavior. I cringe to think of the justification if they realized this, you know?

Might it be the money??? There's decent money (from adoption subsidies) when you adopt multiple "special needs" children. I mean if all they're going to do is put them in a cage when they're too much trouble, then there's really no hassle for the parents.

You do make good points, Lorraine. I've been doing this too long, though, and if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. This has all the classic signs of abuse.

[ajjhmf]

Originally Posted by momofmykids

Not so in TN...you can voluntarily disrupt an adoption after finalized...very similar to surrender of parental rights. You don't have to be charged with anything. As a matter of fact, according to a sw friend of mine, she says it happens "all the time". So sad.

But this family is in Ohio, like me. And once the adoption is finalized, that's it. The child is yours no matter what and if you surrender, you're going to be charged. In Ohio, it doesn't happen all the time.

Lorraine - I think you're making some great points here.

Jenny

[momofmykids]

Jenny,
I wasn't saying that Lorraine was wrong about the Ohio laws, I was just making a point that it's not that way in every state.

Hope I didn't come across wrong.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

I mean... dont in most areas.. (and I may just be totally naive here...)... dont programs for the child's special needs come as part of the package??? I just cant comprehend how this type of a thing could still happen.

My friend is a foster parent and has someone come to her home once a month.. Shouldnt at least SOME of these kids be enrolled in programs for their need.... and shouldnt part of that... for at least one include some kind of a regular home visit??

BLEH!

[momofmykids]

Originally Posted by numbr1dbcksfan

I mean... dont in most areas.. (and I may just be totally naive here...)... dont programs for the child's special needs come as part of the package???

YEP! You can ask for the moon in an adoption subsidy, and with the "special needs" these children have, those aparents should have come pretty close to getting the moon!!!

[ajjhmf]

You can ask for the moon, but you'll be lucky if you get it. Not all states are as progressive as others. Ohio is certainly not one of teh best. It's not the worst, but it's certainly not the best either.

They actually just notified us they are cutting our subsidy for future services AGAIN. And once the adoption is final, cws stop coming to your house. They don't come if your birth child is special needs, nor to they come once your adoption is finalized. And honestly, in many cases, the six month waiting period isn't enough time to really get an idea of a childs needs. It takes atleast that long to get into many therapist, much less get a dx. Yes, this stuff is supposed to be done while the kids are in foster care, but not as many foster parents pursue all the options for their foster kids they way they should.

Jenny

[Lorraine123]

Jfenner is right. Subsidies for special needs children don't even come close to cover what they need. We pay for much of our daughter's needs above what her subsidy covers. Yes, you can ask for the moon - but asking and getting are two different things. Once you finalize your adoption, social services is no longer involved. Its like they are your biological children. Social services doesn't stop by and check up on how your biological children are doing. They usually give you 6 months of placement prior to finalization (and that is not nearly enough time to know the needs of these children). Most of them have a honeymoon period where their real issues are not revealed. Usually, not until after finalization do the parents know what they are dealing with. It was said that these children were feed and had toys. Based on my experience, if the children are fed and had toys, then the subsidy was spent. I don't know how people can "do it for the money". The money just isn't there. And many states are cutting subsidies. We are fighting to keep ours and our daughter is high special needs.

[kiwi]

Yes, I'll admit to being terribly cynical about this situation

I can see them adopting so many children as very financially motivated. The subsidy was not being spent on needed treatments if they were in cages. 11 children must have been a huge tax break. And weren't they home schooled? Is there some kind of of subsidy for that too? "Nice" things can be obtained on a very small budget... let alone and inflated budget with no intention on spending that budget primarily on the children who it was meant to help.

What makes me so sad that if these people are as bad as I think they are, that there aren't many other options of "good" homes for them to go to and there will be/is an outcry for the children to stay put because it's not so bad for them to be put in cages as it is to go to some other foster home where the parents are IMO equally unprepared to deal with special needs children.

[ajjhmf]

I think that what is so sad in this case, is that it happened in the first place. It's so hard when you are in the moment to really see if you are in over your head.

Are these people monsters? I don't know. I don't know them or their motivations, but I do know that parenting children with severe special needs can cause you to lose sight of all that is normal or rational.

I raised a child with severe RAD for 6 months before the county stepped in and removed him for my son's safety. I would have never given up on him. Never. It probably would have destroyed me, my marriage and my family. I found my self putting alarms on doors, getting used to the smell of urine in the house and thinking nothing of listening to a child scream and tantrum for 6 hours on end. During those six months, it was still an adoptive placement and we still had cws coming out monthly. Everything I did was approved by them. Including having him wash his clothes and bedding out by hand after he peed on them nightly. They approved the alarm and the safety plan. They helped us create a behavior chart. I was in over my head and the county knew it. Yet, 2 months in, they tried to get us to take 3 more kids. The boys little brothers. You can't always count on social services to act in the best interest of the child or the family. Just in the best interest of themselves.

JMHO.

Jenny

[Lorraine123]

Are these people monsters? I don't know. I don't know them or their motivations, but I do know that parenting children with severe special needs can cause you to lose sight of all that is normal or rational.

Thats my point exactly. As parents to "normal" childen, you can look at this case, and say "OMG, what monsters.". 2 years ago thats precisely what I would have said. Now, 2 1/2 years later, I don't know if I know what a normal household is like. I have done things that I never thought I would do. I can sit here now and say I would never put my children in cages, however, in the middle of a crisis (and unless you have experienced a true RAD crisis, you don't understand), if my therapist told me that cages would help, I'm not convinced that I wouldn't try them. You are willing to try things that don't make sense. And honestly, you try them because you love your child.

I wish we knew the truth iof this case, and we probably never will.

Kiwi, I totally under your being cynical. I think it all stems from our experiences. I have had people tell me that I was abusive and that they would never do what I do.(And I'm not abusive BTW, just do therapeutic parenting). As a result, I've learned to look at people and think about it differently. I see people in Walmart and their children are screaming and I now think, "Maybe they are having a good day. At least they aren't drawing blood on themselves." Or I hear children being rude to their parents and I think "Maybe the parents are just beginning to teach them rules and have to undo prior experiences." What we live determines how we view situations.

Would my daughter have preferred to have a cage for a bed or a bedroom where her mother's boyfriends could come in and duct tape her mouth and hands and molest her nightly? I think she would have preferred the cage. At least she could have closed it and been safe.

Its all relative.

[RiverGal]

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4970959/detail.html

According to the document, the cages were 2½ feet high and 3 feet long. It said the there was no room for the kids to stand up. The cages were built with 2-by-4 wooden planks and chicken wire.

There was also a strong urine smell coming from the home and there was no bedding inside the cages. They contained small rubber mats for the kids to lie on.

I can see no justification for this. None.

My son started multiple fires in the home and yard. He unloaded the fridge nightly. We had to stay awake in shifts to protect him and the other family members. But no way in the world would I have "caged" him in something like that. No way.

~Deb

[Faith65]

[quote=Lorraine123]Again, playing the devil's advocate, not saying they are right.

But, once a foster child is finalized for adoption, you cannot disrupt that placement without being charged with abuse or abandonment. So, if these parents realized that they were in over their heads but they had finalized on these children, its too late. The state is no longer involved and will not help you without you being charged.

Here in CT the same thing happens. I had a sibling group placed under gaurdianship and the behaviors and all where out of control. I did everything in my power to get services for the children and our family. To no avail. The oldest child was abusing me. Abusing a sibling emotionally and physically too. We did have therapists in place but needed more services. We where told to call hot line to get more services. The state was here within hrs to remove the children. THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANTED! The teachers, therapist and all backed us but the state didnot hear us, or the children. I did everything to get the children back one in purticular. No. Broke my heart and this child. Courts and state push reunifacation with BIO. This was back in 2001. We had them for a year. Snice then they have been separated with in 3 months of being in state care. Would not do that for us. Has had over 13 places each. One hospitalized twice and lived in a safe home for 1 plus years.

Now, this one child is back in my care! All charges dropped because NONE ever founded or done! With all sorts of services.( I don't have a cage for her but do use crates for my family goldens) Still behavior issues. Adotion moving forward. Pshyc evel done and stated "this placement is in the best interrest of this said child!" But we are invested! We have never abused or neglected this child or any. This child's behaviors are managed in our home with our parenting style. And like Lorrianne and some others many think it would be consider abuse! But, this child is doing super now! Honor roll, yearbook club, has friends, and has not needed hospitaliations or a safe home in over 8 months! This is the best this child has done in years!

I am not saying what these parents did where 100 % right or even slightly but I do believe they did take on way to much. And many folks failed this family.

[kiwi]

Lorraine, While I may never truly understand what it is like to parent children like yours or others with severe behaviors, I've caught a glimpse...

My (step) dad got custody of his then 12 year old son because there were abuse charges filed against the mother. I was only 6 when he came to stay with us, but had the feeling immediately that he was not to be trusted. My parents would have put an alarm on his door if they knew such a thing were available, would constantly have to watch him to make sure he wasn't stealing something or hurting our animals and I was never, under any circumstances allowed to be alone with him. He called the police on my parents several times because he decided they were abusing him by doing things like- telling him he can't leave his room until his homework was done or making him do his laundry that he urinated on or the very most extreme, having him do jumping jacks until he told the truth (suggested by a therapist).

I know they were desperate at times, probably nothing compared to what the Gravelles were facing, but even in the depth of their desperation, I can't imagine physical confinement in what I see as crude crates as an option.