[cathy102]

Attorney: Children getting poor treatment in foster care

CLEVELAND (AP) - An attorney for the couple accused of caging some of their 11 adopted children said Wednesday night that the special-needs youngsters are not receiving proper care from their new foster parents.


Attorney David Sherman said in a statement that the children, ages 1 to 14, were in tears following a recent visitation with Michael and Sharen Gravelle because they didn't want to return to the foster homes they were placed in last month.

The Gravelles, of Wakeman in Huron County, adopted youngsters with ailments such as autism, fetal alcohol syndrome, HIV and pica, an eating disorder in which children compulsively eat nonfood items such as dirt and rocks.
Authorities say the couple put some of the children in homemade wooden cages - some with alarms - to sleep and as punishment during the day. The couple have denied harming the children, and no charges have been filed.

The state is investigating the adoptions, including who placed children with the family, whether rules were followed and whether Huron County responded appropriately once the cages were discovered.

The Gravelles had a two-hour visitation with the children on Saturday, which Sherman said was videotaped by case workers.

He accused the Huron County Department of Job and Family Services of placing some of the children with families unequipped to take care of them.

He noted that one of the children found a razor blade in his foster home and shaved patches of his head. A set of twins has been separated because their foster family couldn't handle them, Sherman said.

"These situations would have been a lot more common and worse, were it not for the hard work and dedication of the Gravelles toward improving the children's behavior, aided by the enclosures which were approved by licensed social workers,'' Sherman said in his statement.

A message seeking comment was left for Erich Dumbeck, director of the Huron County Department of Job and Family Services.

Sherman, who recently released photographs showing the kids laughing and playing in a home full of toys, said the children were not caged but kept in "enclosures'' built around bunk beds to stop them from doing things such as setting fires, eating batteries and cutting themselves.

Huron County Prosecutor Russ Leffler is waiting for psychological exams of the children before going to a grand jury. The children were not physically abused, but the evaluations will determine whether they suffered emotionally, he said.

A custody hearing in juvenile court is scheduled for Dec. 6.

Sherman said the children pleaded to stay with the Gravelles after Saturday's visitation.

"One child said, 'I don't want to go home with my fake parents,''' Sherman said.

I am just praying for the kids... Bless their hearts!!!

[RiverGal]

Good job, Cathy! Missy didn't come up with a thing after September 24th.

IMO, Sherman sure needs to come up with a better photo display of the "happy kids" than what he used in the link Kiwi posted (post #35). Either most of the pictures were taken the same day, or the children are real short on clothing.

As for the cages being "enclosed bunk beds," that is a total crock. The pictures are there for the viewing. They look more like scrap lumber and heavy wire fencing to me. I found it pathetic that there were animals painted on the wall, and cages around the mural. How apropos for a human zoo!

And of course Sherman is going to challenge that the forster care is failing them. IMO, it couldn't be nearly as bad as what they have been drug through at the hands of people like the Gravelles. According to Sherman, even the biochildren are lying about past abuse on them. Just look what the foster families were presented with!

It makes me sick. Honestly, the doghouse looked more inviting that the filth and squaller the humans were living in. ICK!!!

Just my obsevation and opinion.

~Deb

[cathy102]

I just want to cry, Deb... Let's hope this family has to pay for what they did... I looked at Kiwi's link. I don't even know what to say!!!! I need to check on my kids... Gzzzzzz!!! Lost for words right now!!!!!!!

[momofmykids]

Thanks, Cathy, for the update! I, too have been wondering. I just have a couple of comments:

Originally Posted by cathy102

Attorney David Sherman said in a statement that the children, ages 1 to 14, were in tears following a recent visitation with Michael and Sharen Gravelle because they didn't want to return to the foster homes they were placed in last month.

This is FAIRLY common for children in state custody after spending time with their parents. For me, this doesn't shed any positive light on these parents.

Originally Posted by cathy102

A set of twins has been separated because their foster family couldn't handle them, Sherman said.

Hard to handle??? Hmmmmm, now there's a shocker. For crying out loud, these kids have been locked in cages!!!

I'm shocked that the parents are getting visitation. This is nauseating. How does their attorney lay his head down and go to sleep at night??? How in the world can he justify this?

[Lorraine123]

I'm sure I will take a beating for this, but here goes....

How many of you have parented children with RAD? How many of you have parented children with FAS? How many of you have parented children that sexual molest their siblings?

Until you have walked in those shoes, you cannot pass judgement. From reading this thread, I'm sure many of you would recommend that my daughter be taken away from me. No, we do not have a cage for her, but we also don't have 11 children in our house. She could not share a room with a sibling, and since we are out of bedrooms in our house, we would have a problem. Many times you don't know that they can't be in the same room until its too late. We do have an alarm on her door - Many of you have stated that the alarms on the cages are abuse and enough for removal of the children. There are times that my daughter has nothing in her room except a mattress. We do that as consequences for her behaviors. We must keep her safe by removing anything that she could use to hurt herself. Again, I'm sure many of you would find that abusive. We must parent her in a very different style because she has little concept of cause and effect.

We have been accused of abuse because of our parenting (as have many parents of children with RAD). Outsiders don't understand. And they are very judgemental.

I don't know the details of this case, and these parents may very well be abusers (don't get me wrong). But just because they have cages, or just because their house is "filthy", doesn't make them abusive. Sometimes its more damaging for the children to be removed from the parents and put into foster care than it is for the child to be left in the home and the parents taught what is appropriate and be given resources.

Maybe they got in over their heads. I am a classic example of not being told the issues my child had prior to placement. But we love her and we are willing to do whatever it takes to keep her and our other children safe. And many times what it takes is extreme to the outside world.

I have seen abuse. My daughter was severely physically, emotionally and sexual abused prior to coming to our house. Even then, social services tried to work with her birthmom to teach her parenting skills and keep the family together. That is goal of social services. For them to just yank these children out of this home simply because of cages, I feel is wrong. Work with them, teach them, keep the family in tact. These parents are clearly overwhelmed. I have been overwhelmed many times with my daughter. I have never abused her, but clearly many of you would think I have.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/n...= 46371&rfi=6

Ive read more.. but here is one talking about the abuse his bio child(ren) are alledging. (There are other articles - at least one I recall reading from his bio son.)

[Lorraine123]

Just playing the devil's advocate here (please, I'm not saying that I think these people are great parents, that I don't know). However...

It seems that the media is on a witch hunt. When we went through our home study process, we had to attend classes, we had to be interviewed, all our children had to be interviewed. Now, I'm not saying that sometimes things fall through the cracks. I know they do. I know that sometimes convicted abusers adopt because someone didn't do their job. But these parents adopted 11 times. Therefore, they had 11 homestudies, 11 personal interviews, 11 interviews of their current children, 11 different social workers. You really think 11 times, things were overlooked? 11 times, the biological children gave rave reviews of the parents? In 11 interviews, no psychological issues were revealed? 11 social workers didn't see abuse in the house? Just seems kind of fishy to me.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

I dont know Lorraine in the interview I read from the son, he said he was shocked that his dad was allowed to adopt. And the daughter saying what she is saying...?? I mean that is a big thing to be false.... And if the bio children were also in cages... why is that.... they couldnt have been RAD..

In my experience there are parents who are awful and the kids can tell the truth, but the parents are such smooth talkers that the authorities believe them. Let's face it-- it is just cheaper for the state if the accusations are false. (JMHO- from my personal experience.)

IF that happened here... then I believe without a doubt that it can be over looked especially if the house was run in the way reported. And they were adopting from many different agencies.... If it was legit.. why do it the way they did? If it was legit.. why 11 children.. if they already needed their kids in cages??


Lorraine-- I dont think you are an abuser at all... your daughter has her own room and has special needs. An alarm on the BEDROOM door is not abusive.. I may think that an alarm on the CLOSET door was... but these kids didnt even have a closet.. they couldnt even stand...

The sad part, IMO, is that the kids think it is ok.

Somehow, I dont see you sticking your daughter in a cage... and I dont see you having the issues that you do.. saying wow... maybe I should bring 5 or 6 more kids on in here....

I dont think that it is ONE thing or something that can be pigeonholed.. I think it is everything put together that makes it so disturbing.

[Lorraine123]

Thanks Christine.

I'm not at all saying these parents weren't abusers. Its very likely that they were. However, what got me going, was reading the posts to this thread. People are just very willing to jump to conclusions. And the support for the conclusions that I have read would lead them to believe that I am an abuser as well. I agree that as the story unfolds there is a lot more to it, but some people were shouting abuser simply because of the cages and nothing else. And I took offense to that.

Someone even said that these parents deserve the death penalty and this was before there were any details except the cage information released. Whoa.

My point wasn't to prove or disprove these parents guilt. It was to make people pause and think. Don't just jump to conclusions. I'm passionate about that probably because we have been accused of abuse by strangers who didn't listen to our side of the situation. The posts in the beginning of the thread said that these parents should be arrested and accused right away. Some posters were indignant that they were still unaccused after a week. I'm glad the people who investigated me didn't feel that way.

I don't know why these parents had 11 children with special needs when they didn't have room to separate them. We may never know why that is. But the fact is, they did. So, it appears to the majority here thinks it would be better to let the children abuse one another than to put them in cages. Which is more long term damaging? I agree, its very bad parenting, no argument from me there, but does it warrant arrest and the siblings being forced apart? Or does it warrant a social worker working with the family teaching them and getting them access to the help they obviously need.

Again, realize my reponse is based on some of the posts from when the article was first released and we knew few details.

[RiverGal]

I say go have a look at the pics of the cages. The links are many. It is beyond my comprehension how anyone, even if stretching the imagination to the umteenth degree could find anything humane about the circumstances those children were exposed to.

JMO.

~Deb

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Totally. I think there are just so many questions....

I know one of my first ones is-- was this overlooked because they were in the backwoods? How COULD they be approved for more children? How DID they pass a home study?

At the beginning the "psychologist" who suggested the cages was pin pointed... but what about all of these people???

Why arent the parents charged?? I have a little bit of a feeling that a bit of butt covering is going on. Can you charge the parents without charging the line of people who approved the home.. and didnt check on the kids.. etc etc etc....

Yes you can.. but these kids were wronged by more than one set of people.

[RiverGal]

Posted by numbr1dbcksfan:

.. but these kids were wronged by more than one set of people.

AMEN!!! And, IMO, it is still going on.

Granted, Sherman is being PAID to paint a rosy picture. But honestly...what he is using as his defense is pathetic, IMO. He has even attempted to discredit the adult bio children as having agendas.

Like I said earlier, my DOG has better living quarters that those children did.

JMO.

~Deb

[momofmykids]

Originally Posted by Lorraine123

How many of you have parented children with RAD? How many of you have parented children with FAS? How many of you have parented children that sexual molest their siblings?

ME to all three questions!!!

Lorraine, I would never think you were an abuser by the way you discipline your daughter. I've had to use many of the consequences you mentioned here...what more can you do when you have one who can tantrum for hours? IMO, you are a great mommy, Lorraine...the "cage parents" are abusers.

[kiwi]

Lorraine, You are right that investigation is a must before any action against the Gravelles. Parenting a child with RAD and many other disorders is not at all what "normal" parents think is ok but that does not by any means make it wrong.

HOWEVER- we're talking about NINE out of ELEVEN children being put in a confined space as "punishment". I agree with others who have said that at some point they should have realized hmmm, maybe we can only handle so many special needs kids if we have to put them all in cages to mantain any semblance of order.

Though I feel terribly that the new foster parents seem ill equiped to care for the children's needs, I can't see using those children's opinions of the Gravelles having any kind of weight. I don't know the exact statistics, but battered spouses and children will more often than not, defend the actions of their abusers.

I think Christine is right on with this one-

Can you charge the parents without charging the line of people who approved the home.. and didnt check on the kids..

I'm sure that after child number 2 or 3 was caged, this dark light dawned on someone in that line and then it snowballed.

[Lorraine123]

Again, playing the devil's advocate, not saying they are right.

But, once a foster child is finalized for adoption, you cannot disrupt that placement without being charged with abuse or abandonment. So, if these parents realized that they were in over their heads but they had finalized on these children, its too late. The state is no longer involved and will not help you without you being charged.

So, Kiwi, what you are saying is that after a few were in cages they should have realized that they were over their heads, and yes, I agree, but what could they do??? Say you have 11 biological children and realize you are over your head, you can't just walk into social services and say "here, take some of them." You are charged with abandonment. It is not at all easy to disrupt after finalization. In fact, its extremely difficult.

Christine asked: How COULD they be approved for more children? How DID they pass a home study?

Thats a question that I would like an answer to. And I agree there is a bunch of butt covering going on.