[whoownsthis]

Yikes! We've got three sibs staying with us for respite care (11 days) while their family gets a much-needed break from them and a trip to visit family out of state for Spring Break.

Anyway, the foster parents told us, "Good luck!" as they left, and now we can see why. And these are kids our (private) agency tried to talk us into adopting if they become available because they have "fewer issues" than most foster kids. But here's a typical day so far:

1. Kids wake up by 6:30 a.m. and are running around, even though we told them not to get up until their clock shows 7:30. (The oldest, 11, even gets up because she's afraid she'll miss something, but she's been known to sleep until 10 or later at her foster home!)

2. Once up, if it's just the younger 2 (9 and 6 years old), they're OK, just a few snotty remarks, but no fights. But once the oldest gets up, she's quite the snot! So from the time she gets up until she goes to bed, she's a total brat!

EX: I tried playing the "Life" game this morning with the oldest two (11 and 9), and she managed to try to cheat at every turn. She'd also conveniently "remember" that she hadn't been paid on her last turn when she passed over a "Payday" square, so she'd demand that her little brother (the "banker") pay her. Well, I said "You snooze, you lose!" and after her 3rd try, she said, "Fine! I quit!" and threw her cards and stomped off. Pretty senseless considering that she was already winning. Obviously a control thing.

3. Lunch battles---who sits where, what they will/won't eat, who said what, who gave a dirty look, on and on and on.

4. Then after lunch, there's the inevitable arguing over what game to play and who will be included. Today (before lunch and after the 11-yr-old stomped off from the game), she went outside to swing on the swingset. The youngest (6) joined her, and it wasn't long before they had to be chastised for trying to climb trees, climb over the fence, standing up on the top of the swingset, etc. (Part of me wishes the oldest would just fall and hurt herself so she'll understand why she shouldn't do these things (natural consequences), but I also know we'd be investigated for neglect if we let that happen.)...Anyway, by this time I was in the shower and my husband turned away from the window for just a moment, and suddenly her heard the youngest screaming and fake crying. Up she ran to the door to tattle on her older sister for hitting her in the back of the head with the other swing. "Hmm," he said. And he checked her for bumps, bruises, blood. He asked her if it hurt? She said, "Yes," but he pointed out that it couldn't have hurt that bad if she had shed no tears, so she gave up and came inside to play. (Good choice!) Meanwhile the bratty older sister gave my husband an evil look and came in, too (he didn't tell her to), threw her shoes down and slammed the closet door. Then she huffed and puffed and plopped down on the living room couch in front of the cartoons that we were finally letting the kids watch (keeping her coat on and that bratty pout the whole time). UGH!!!!

5. Dinner: Last night we went out to Fazolis and the cashier made the mistake of giving the boy a different toy from his two sisters. Well he decided he didn't want his, but the older sister (11) had already opened hers, and decided she wanted to trade with him. Too late! My husband had already taken it back to the counter to trade it so they'd all have the same toy, and he wouldn't let her trade. So she pouted, and gave him the evil look again (he was sitting across from her). She crossed her arms and announced that she wasn't going to eat anything! (OK, is it just me, or is this behavior typical of a much younger child?!) Eventually she forgot about her sour mood and ate, and ate, and (breadstick after breadstick).

6. Bedtime: UGHHHHHHHH. The 6-yr-old has earned herself an earlier bedtime each night because she screams and wails and stomps her feet and kicks the wall and screams some more (last night went on for nearly 2 hours!). Each night we tell her that if we hear or see her after she's put to bed, it's a half hour earlier the next night. The good news is that she was a little quiter with all of this noise, but it did last longer than it had the night before. (Please don't tell me she's scared, folks. It was still daylight out, and she does not pull this stunt at her foster home!)

And in the meantime, the foster family hasn't called the kids! They've been here for 4 days. My husband thinks they're trying to "baptize us by fire," because a few months ago (after having had them for weekend respites three times already), we had written a letter of intent to adopt them IF they become available. (Their TPR hearing was a few months ago and still no ruling.)

But man, oh man! There is no way we're going to adopt these kids. NO WAY! I know a lot of what I've described seems like normal sibling rivalry, but it's constant! If we step out of the room, within 30 seconds they'll be fighting. We've raised three sons, and they were nowhere near this hostile to each other or snotty to us, their parents. Sure, they had their moments, but nothing like this.

And now my husband is saying, "I think we should give up on the idea of children. If these three have 'fewer issues' than most foster kids, then it can only get worse." And that terrifies me, because we have already been matched with three younger girls from out of state who have been described by their foster mom, adoption worker, and therapist as "good, sweet, well-behaved." Yeah, now I'm starting to wonder. Could all of these people be glossing over the truth? Is it possible for a foster child to be "sweet" and "well-behaved"? Don't they all have serious oppositional/defiance/aggression issues?! Or is it just the few sibling groups we've had in our home that fit that description?

--Seriously beginning to question our ability to effectively parent foster kids without losing our sanity in the meantime!

[scarlet52698]

The behavior you describe sounds pretty "normal" to me as far as siblings go and the age that they are. Add to that they have been taken away from their family and it makes sense that to me that you would see a lot of acting out.

Maybe you should rethink fostering and look into straight adoption? I can understand your frustration but you described the oldest girl as "snotty" several times in your post (and she may be), but it sounds like you are taking it personaly to me.

[kamamsm]

Actually-- the behavior you describe sound exactly like what you can expect from foster kids. And I've known it to be MUCH worse. But I must add- we've adopted three times. A 13 yr old, a 15yr old and an 8 yr old. My teens I've had basically NO problems with- very few snotty remarks- easily redirected- bonding well with us & each other. My 8yr old has RAD and no I didn't know before hand- so she's been a whole different ball game. But even her behaviors are improved. ( I am a bit of a control freak myself so I easily catch her in contolling behaviors.) Think hard- but there are really sweet kids out there. Oh & review attachment disorders carefully so you know what they look like.

[Nixie]

First, all those behaviors sound normal of any child, with or without abuse/neglect issues. Second, my guess would be if they are dumped by their foster family to go on a vacation and you all snub every behavior sounds like their is no love or consistency from anyone.
I would say if you can't handle some typical behaviors from children with abuse/neglect baggage, then you do not need to adopt. You are not going to get a perfect child, biological or not. All children have issues, more so than others. I would fear you would want to dump any child or children that are snotty and of course the last things the kids need is to not be accept by a family because they have typical behaviors with baggage. You need to walk in their shoes, where is the consistency, love, support, when no one seems to want to be with you. And...sit in the bed for an HOUR! An hour to these children is like a whole day! These are children!
My final word is get out of foster care and adoption, your husband is right!

[kamamsm]

Oh- one more thing-- I stopped tantrums with cold water. Every time she throws a fit- dump a glass of cold water over her head to cool her off-- it sure worked for me. I'm an outside of the box kind of thinker anyway. And I'm old fashioned enough to believe that snotty remarks, cheating at games, beligerence, not to mention kicking walls & screaming, is NOT acceptable nor is it normal sibling behavior. I think its bratty behavior that we as adults are supposed to be teaching is unacceptable. Coming from a bad home into foster care is not a license to do act any awful way they can conceive. The bad home situation may lend itself to behaviors ( sexually acting out, compulsions, hording food etc), But ignoring egregious behavior merely because a child is in foster care does great injustice to the child involved, and to the people who adopt them.

[Nixie]

No, foster care is not an excuse for children. However, it is necessary to be taken into consideration when you are dealing with them. They need love, suppport, structure, and consistency!
You do have to find creative ways to deal with their behaviors. I disagree with throwing water in their face, that is not appropriate!
How humilating is that! Would you want your husband to do that to you during an arguement?

[leenab]

whoownsthis,
You may want to reconsider adopting older children from the fostercare system. Even those considered "perfect" have issues. My son who was considered perfect was by far the most difficult child we've had so far (and we've had 9 children). Adopting a child who's been in fostercare and knows the system is not an easy thing to do.

Even with the "perfect" children your life is going to be upsidedown for the better part or a year or longer.

Hang in there for the next few days,
LeenaB

[tybeemarie]

The behavior you describe is typical of my children, a sibling group of 3, ages 6, 7, and 9. They've been with us for 4 months. The hyper, out of control behavior is pretty well under control. And they have learned that rampant pouting gets consequences.

BUT there is a lot to deal with--my oldest daughter has disturbing and sometimes maddening meltdowns. My youngest daughter has suddenly taken up saying devastatingly mean things, mostly to me, but also to her brother and sister. My son will most likely have to repeat 2nd grade.

It is a very difficult undertaking, particularly for the mother. I think it was wise of you to do some respite care to get a good sense of the behaviors to expect. If you fall in love with the kids, as my DH and I did, it makes it easier, but they can still really drive you up a wall. And it is a definite challenge assessing the children's real needs. I don't think most social workers willfully conceal or mislead people, although some do. Mostly, these children are not given adequate mental health assessments and are seen by inexperienced and ill-trained clinicians.

Adopting older children is definitely not for everyone, and if it's not for you, that's perfectly understandable and okay. Good luck making your decision.

[Lorraine123]

Do all foster children have issues? - I have to say yes. They were not placed by responsible, loving parents. They are in foster care due to some level of disfunction. While this a continuum and some children have greater issues than others, they all have issues nonetheless.

You will definitely see trust issues in all foster children. Thats what you are seeing in these children right now. They will test you to see if you are strong enough to take care of them (and their testing is relentless). They will push you away to make sure you really are going to stay. You have to prove again and again and again that you are a stable person in their lives, and even then they won't really believe it.

The children you are caring for are frightened. I know I would be afraid in their shoes. And they take their emotions out on one-another and you. They need reassurance that you provide structure and safety.

When a caseworker says that a child has few issues, realize that what is few to them may be many to us. And realize that on occassion caseworkers do lie. We were told that my daughter had a diagnosis of RAD, but they were going to remove that diagnosis because she was attaching to her foster mother. That was a total lie. She has RAD RAD RAD. She isn't and wasn't attached to anyone.

Don't take it personally. Your daughter is snotty because she is scared and trying to push you away. She knows in her mind that you are going to hurt her. If she is mean to you and doesn't care for you, then it won't hurt so much when you do hurt her. These kids have such twisted logic.

Parenting damaged children is hard work. The hardest thing I have ever done. We didn't cause the damage, but we get to pick up the pieces. We also get to see the rewards of helping them heal.

[dadfor2]

quote:
"Could all of these people be glossing over the truth? Is it possible for a foster child to be "sweet" and "well-behaved"? Don't they all have serious oppositional/defiance/aggression issues?! Or is it just the few sibling groups we've had in our home that fit that description?"

--Seriously beginning to question our ability to effectively parent foster kids without losing our sanity in the meantime!

I hear you!!!!!!!!!!...first, the behaviors you described actually sounds like alot of kids. Just like to point that out first.

i dont think anyone is glossing over the truth. What might be an 'easy' kid in the foster care system, might be considered a very 'hard' child from a 'normal' birth family....

"Don't they all have serious oppositional/defiance/aggression issues?! "

no they dont, but alot of these kids are real angry....who could blame them...

not sure how i would react if i lost my parents and everything that i have known, my house, my neighborhood, my friends, my pets, my blankey, my bed....lost, all in one day.....

then to be dropped off at some strangers house and told that these would be my new parents (most kids dont really get what 'foster' means .....

not sure how any of us could deal with that.

"Or is it just the few sibling groups we've had in our home that fit that description?""

nah...i would bet any older child would fit the description you gave..(older, i mean non infant) ..
and the ones that didnt have any issues, id be worried about them even more. A child to be totally complient, i would bet would have some major diffulculities later on for not dealing with what just happened to them.

remember, kids behavior is their language. they have not learned to use words to describe how they feel yet, so they use their behaviors to tell you how they are feeling.

as for the kids you just had. again, not sure how i would feel to be in my home and then shipped to other people while my (foster) parents went on vacation....

id be pretty pissed over that too.

"Seriously beginning to question our ability to effectively parent foster kids without losing our sanity in the meantime!"

yes, you will lose your sanity....we all do....but the love we feel for our children does sustain us. I dont think any child in the foster care system, or any child for that matter, is 'easy'.

but kids in the foster care system do have issues. some have less, but they all do.

kids need a sence of permanance in their lives to trust and grow. If a child does not have a 'permanant' home, they get stuck to some degree.

does it get easier?...yes it does. but before that happens, you WILL go insane!!!!!!!!...

just for the record...i dont agree with throwing cold water on a tantruming child. they are tantruming due to the anger and loss of their family. There are other creative ways to stop a child from screaming who has been abused and neglected.

throwing water on a child, and the child does stop screaming, it doesnt mean the child actually got it.

being creative is trying to figure out ways to help the child not even tantrum.

One thing i have learned, i cannot raise my boys the way my parents raised me. These kids suffer from such low self estemm already, and its our job to really come up with different ways to 'punish' them.

There are many things that i have done to help my children comply without them even thinking they were 'bad'.

for instance....my younger boy, who does have control issues, takes his time getting dressed in the morning...on purpose. (this makes me crazy.. )

now, i can say 100 times to hurry up were going to be late...but that will jsut slow him down even more. I can put him in 'time out' because he is pushing my buttons and trying to control....and guess what....tantrum, here we come...and guess whos late anyway?

what i have done, is have him race the clock to get dressed....you want to see a kid get dressed real fast.

so its a win win...no tantrums, he is having fun, and were never late. What does that teach him?..absoutly nothing...but tantrums never teaches him anything either....at least now i am giving him some self estemm points because he beat the clock....

i think for me, is trying to find out ways to avoid tantrums and start using words to label his feeilngs since he cant yet....

hope im making sence

[Nixie]

Amen Dadfor2! You can tell we are in the same profession!

[dadfor2]

just a couple of other thoughts

quote:
'(OK, is it just me, or is this behavior typical of a much younger child?!) '

its not you.....most kids who have been removed from birthfamiy due to abuse and/or neglect, emotionally are much younger. Thats part of the package.

quote:
"We've raised three sons, and they were nowhere near this hostile to each other or snotty to us, their parents. Sure, they had their moments, but nothing like this."

unless you abused and neglected your sons, you really cannot compare them. Its like comparing apples and oranges, yea they are both fruit, but thats about it.

quote:
"There is no way we're going to adopt these kids. NO WAY! "

my adivce is really look at this whole situation and see if your ready for adopting older kids. Adopting kids in the system is very very different then raising kids from birth who were not abused and neglected.

I think you and your husband really need to sit down and look at why you want to adopt older kids. Alot of these kids are not 'easy', and you cant parent them like your birth kids.

Quote:
"I said "You snooze, you lose!" "

lol...this statement alone would cause my kids to go into a major rage and meltdown....i would never say this to them.

these children are hurt and they have no clue on what its like to live in a loving home. THey have been shipped around like pawns on a chess board, not knowing where they are going to end up.

Even their own foster parents havnt called them to check in....what message does that send to the kids?.... Not a loving one.

And dont think these kids dont notice this stuff, these kids notice EVERYTHING!!! they have to, and thats how they survive.

They have been hurt, and they will go out of their way to keep themselves safe, and if that means pushing you and your husband away by making snide remarks, tantrums, yelling and screaming, or whatever they can do too figure out how to push your buttons, they will do it.

they been hurt so much, and they will NOT be hurt again, by anyone!!!!!

if you decide to go ahead and adopt an older child, you will have to PROVE that you will be there for them forever....and that takes time, because all they know is that nothing is really forever, and the people that say "I love you" dont really mean it.

obviously you shouldnt adopt these kids...you already have negative feelings around the older girl, plus, she already knows it.

but really think if you want to do this...like lorraine said..this is the hardest thing i have ever done...

but when they do start to come around.....it truly is one of the most amazing things to witness.....

[SarrieAB]

I am new to foster care and have only had one placement. He is 16 and I love him dearly. But issues? Oh boy does he. But what else can you expect? He was taken from his Dad's house for physical abuse that had spanned the whole time he was there (3 years). And when he was taken to his Mom's house she voluntarily placed him in foster care. She didn't want him! Now, yes he has issues but I couldn't imagine signing over my own child. And so why WOULDN'T he have issues. He is testing us and seeing if we'll send him away. He has been in 6 foster homes in 6 months until us. He would do something and they would send him away. I told him when he said he was the worst foster kid ever that he couldn't get rid of us that easy.
Honestly this how you would feel, as an ADULT, if I came into your house tomorrow and said "Fill this backpack up with what you want to take with you. That's all you get." Then I take you to a new home and family that you don't know and say "Ok this is your new family, you're living here now." I'm an adult and I know I would be mad, confused, and possibly take it out on the family there.
Maybe you should look at just infants? From what I've heard even toddlers can have the kind of behavior issues you're talking about.

And as for water to stop a tantrum. I know my private agency would probably remove the kid from my home if I tried something like this. I would NEVER try this on a foster child. They have already been neglected, abused, and/or just plain ripped out of the only home they knew. They don't need water in the face to stop them from tantruming. This only benefits you and NOT the child.

[jennyg1982]

I would be VERY careful about putting cold water on a child for any behavior. 2 of the children in my care were removed from their previous foster home (and it was closed) because the foster parents splashed water on one of the boys when he was throwing a tantrum.
And the behaviors that were described are VERY much typical for foster kids. They have no control so they try to control anything they can. And they will do anything to get your attention. But on the up side, when they finally know you REALLY love them, it is worth it all!

[whoownsthis]

Whew, I'm so glad my post got a few responses! I was "venting" this morning, and thankfully the day is nearly over and I've had my husband here all day to help. I don't know how I'll manage this week while he's at work during the day and at school during the night.

An update...More defiance throughout the day, and while I was upstairs on the phone with foster dad (after he had called to talk to the kids this evening--the family took a 2.5-day drive to their vacation destination which is just a relative/friend's house!), so the first couple of days without a phone call were understandable), the older two got into it. My husband was in the other room and heard the oldest scream, "I HATE you!!!!" Then apparently the boy threw a little plastic horse (from the Lincoln Log set) he was playing with at her and hit her in the face, so she began shrieking (fake crying, screaming, etc.). This all transpired in seconds, so my husband just caught the tail end. He sent the 9-yr-old boy up to his room and went up to talk to him (about how sometimes the older sister says mean things and picks on him, but that he should NEVER throw anything at her and that he needs to just walk away. Of course by this point the boy was crying--apparently this happens alot. One of them starts it, but the other gets in trouble, or both.) I should mention that the boy begs the girls to let him play with him, and they are very mean to him! Even his younger sister does it to him.

Then my husband went back downstairs to talk to the oldest girl (11) about saying hurtful things to her sibs, and that she can feel angry and frustrated and sad, but that her siblings will always be there for her (basically that they are all she has, but he didn't say it that bluntly), and that they need to be each other's support...That he understands that things are rough right now (waiting for a TPR ruling that's 7 years overdue!), and they're getting on each other's nerves, but that they need to support each other right now instead.

Well, then BAM! Everything came pouring out! Now I know they all do that "crazy lying" thing, so I'm not sure how much was true, but it sounds like she's feeling very unloved and hopeless right now. (This would explain the stealing for the last few months.)

But she said some pretty awful things about the foster parents, that we should report, but that I know may not even be true. (Said foster dad had hit her, knocking her to the floor and then lied about it to his own wife who walked in the room and saw her on the floor. She said he told his wife that she had tripped and fallen. This I don't believe because we're both from the same agency and spanking is NOT allowed! You can lose your license for it! Plus, why on earth would the guy lie to his own wife?!) I know what triangulation is, and this could be it (getting us on her side against her foster parents who are the main discipliners), but at the same time, they seemed to be genuine tears and it's obvious she feels horrible about the situation they're in, and very hopeless.

I walked in on the last part: "I don't have any friends, nobody likes me. I wish it could all end. I wish I could just die...or run away." She said she feels hopeless because if they go back to biomom it will be terrible, and if they are adopted, the adoptive family won't want to keep them "because of how we are." She added that the foster parents had recently received a letter from another family at church telling them they were praying for them (for foster parents) and that the foster dad told the kids, "It's probably because of you three kids that they feel they have to pray for us!" (implying that the 3 kids were so awful that everybody felt sorry for the foster parents). Now that one I definitely don't believe. We've spent time with this foster family and honestly I can't see them saying something so hurtful, even when they were at the end of their rope!...I wonder if she's just verbalizing (putting words into foster dad's mouth) what she FEELS...that she is hurting her foster family and making them angry, that she feels worthless, but making it sound as if it's the foster dad who's making her feel that way. I just learned that once these 3 are returned to biomom or adopted, the foster family is giving up foster care. It has been a rough 3 years for them with these 3 children! So for anyone to accuse foster parents of "dumping" kids to go on vacation, you just don't understand what it is to parent a hurt child day in and day out. Multiply that by 3, and you'll understand why the family needs the break!

This is all alot to take in, but in talking quietly with my husband tonight after kids were in bed, he really thinks these kids have a long, long road ahead of them, and the oldest girl is going to have the toughest time healing. (But why on earth hasn't the foster family gotten them the therapy they need?! This is where I fault our agency for just chalking this up to "normal (foster kid) sibling relationships" and thinking they'll be OK with time, structure, and consistency. The kids are getting worse, not better. There doesn't seem to be any sort of bond with the foster family (although the youngest was eager to talk to "Daddy" on the phone tonight).

Ugh! I ache for these kids. I can't understand how they could be dragged through this for the past 7 years, and then have a judge that is taking 3 months to make a ruling on TPR! Why do we do this to the most vulnerable, needy kids?!

P.S. If you've followed any of my posts, you'll recognize these three kids from the Special Needs/Attachment board a few months ago when we first had them for respite and saw the full gamut of attachment disorder symptoms: crazy lying (lying in the face of the obvious), stealing, meltdowns at the dinner table, screaming, manipulating (saying "I love you!" right after being caught in some misbehavior) and superficial affection (telling me they wanted to call me mom as I was driving them home for the first time--I had just met them!) Although they can accept affection even when they are angry, so that's a good sign.

Thanks, everyone, for listening. Even when the posts get heated, we're all learning something.