[dadfor2]

kamamsm,

i totally understnad and agree about thinking outside the box. We have to do it, to teach our kids what is appropriate, because they just dont know.

but i guess my issue is when my son is tantruming, its usually trauma stuff...not because i said he couldnt have a piece of candy.

after a 3 hour tantrum and he gets calm, he has told me that he cant help it...that his brain doesnt work....

my job is to make sure that he is safe. That its ok to be angry, but learn how to handle his angry feelings better.

the problem that i had, is when my son is in the loop (as we call it)...he cant hear or reason or anything, he is in his trauma place....it has to do with more biology then emotional.

due to my childrens abuse, in their early yrs, part of their brain was not developed, my kids didnt get the warm fuzzies and nuturing from their mother...so their brains were not developed correctly. this was not their fault.

so when they are in their truama place, i have to keep them safe and hold them. Let them know that they are safe with me.

"What I don't understand is why it upsets people so much that children need immediate cause & effect in their lives"

i dont think anyone is upset...actually, just the opposite, most of our kids never get cause and effect because their brain wasnt developed correctly.

and here we are, trying to figure out how to parent a child that doesnt have cause and effect thinking....

if they did, they would be pretty easy kids to raise. And i truthfully think this is what makes these kids so hard...is because they dont have cause and effect thinking.

i wish that if my child can learn from natural consequences, life would be easier for him. but he is the type to do the same thing over and over and over again...not realizing the first time didnt work...

i have never heard of dumping water on kids heads while they are tantruming. Not sure how an abused kid would think about that....

but apparently that method worked for your little one...i would just feel uncomfortable doing it, only because when my kids went into their 'truama place', they really had a hard time controlling it, they kinda disassociated to a certain degree...

but every kid is different, and kids abuse issues are different. I dont think my kids would of handled that at all every well.

[kllee4]

Just got through watching Nanny 911 and something occurred to me.............the vast majority of kids on this show (and I do realize that it is a reality show) are biological kids. So families with bio kids do deal with kids with out of control behavior and there is no other reason (like an unstable, abusive home) for them to be acting like this except for parents who didn't have a balance between love and some structure/boundaries. I'm not saying that these kids on the show can be compared to children who have been in the system, but I did scratch my head today and think that it's ironic that these kids were BORN to these parents and even that doesn't guarantee that the children are not going to act out.

I applaud all of you have have "been there, done that". Loving children with such troubling pasts is such a tough job, but yet you all do it for the love of the children. God bless you all! I still question if I have the guts to do it.

[whoownsthis]

Hey, dad, just wanted to post a quick note to tell you that I really appreciated your post #26...the walking in the dark alley, rustling leave, etc. (and your understanding words). You're absolutely right--as respite parents we have no idea what the triggers are, and which are lies and half-truths. I've talked to the social worker already because in what appeared to be a moment of grief and letting her feelings out for the 11-yr-old, she accused the foster dad of physical abuse. We HAD to report this (even if unofficially). The social worker is going to come talk to her today, because she has reported before. ..Ugh, gotta go. This was my 5-minute break, but the kids are outside screaming!!!

[whoownsthis]

Just a quick update while the kids are downstairs with my husband watching a movie...

The social worker came over today to talk with the oldest, just to "see how she's doing" and to see if she'd open about about the alleged abuse. (She took her out for a treat.) When they returned, social worker told me (with A sitting there) that in their talk A had admitted that she knows the foster parents do love her and she said she understands that they give her consequences because they want to help her learn, and that she understands that it's her behaviors that are bad, not her. The worker had told her that fosterparents were just frustrated that she wouldn't listen to anything or learn from past mistakes/consequences. (She said she understood this...could see their perspective.) She also said she understood that she doesn't have to be like the older bio daughter, she just has to be herself, "the GOOD A," she said. Then she went outside to play.

The social worker said she's going to talk to foster parents about remaining patient and not using sarcasm (foster dad does this with her--we've seen it). A still insists that foster dad spanked her once, but she can't remember when and social worker couldn't get any other "abuse" stories out of her. (A had told my husband that she never tells worker anything because she won't believe her, anyway. Maybe that's why she didn't say anything else? Or maybe she was truly lying, and didn't want to dig herself in even further?) Social worker is going to reiterate the agency policy on spanking to foster parents (not allowed unless dire circumstances, and only with 2 other adults present).

And then before social worker left, she said she thought they had had a good talk and that A was going to work at being better.

A few minutes after social worker left, while I was inside peeling potatoes (and watching kids through window), another screaming match errupted and A had her younger brother on the ground with her knee in his back and pushing his face in the dirt. Yep, this is "normal" sibling behavior, but she had just promised both me and social worker (not to mention foster dad on the phone this morning) that she was going to "try harder" to get along with her sibs. She knows there is NO physical contact allowed between them (she choked little brother back in January, and little brother told her he was going to kill her after foster dad stepped in). Since that time all adults involved have been consistent with the "no physical contact" rule.

So I separated the kids (I didn't know what else to do!). I made them go to different areas of the house to read/play with LEGOs, whatever. They were mad at me for that (and each other for what had just transpired). I reminded A of what she had just promised me and her social worker just moments before. That calmed her down for a few minutes (until she got angry at younger sister for something. Can't remember what.).

Social worker is going to have a talk with therapist/"counselor" to let her know about the increased aggression and suicide talk. A has mentioned "wanting to die" before, but no attempts. However, we still need to fill out a self-abuse form for our agency for her file so that counselor can talk to her about it.

I wonder if the whole time A was telling me (with social worker in room) about what a great talk she had with worker and what she learned (would try harder and just be A, not her bio sister)...if she was doing exactly what she had told my husband the other night (when she told him that foster dad had physically abused her and that he later lied about it to his wife, her foster mom) that she said she has to do with the social worker (just telling her/us what we wanted to hear)? Or maybe she just understands "the game"--that we'll all feel better for a little while when she tells us she understands and will "do better" and not try to be somebody else, so that gives her a break? Foster parents (and us as well) have told her each time she does/says something negative (the hitting, choking, "I hate yous," "I wish you were dead," I wish I were dead," etc.) that she needs to slow down and think before she acts/speaks: "What will happen when I do/say this?"

Of course this is assuming that she understands cause/effect and consequences. She has shown remorse in the past (not in the past few months, though, since the TPR hearing was held and she's getting frustrated waiting for a ruling).

All is calm now (for the moment). Just put youngest to bed (and she's not screaming and wailing! Hoorah!!! There's rejoicing in our home!!!) , and the other two are watching TV with my husband. I'm taking a break from collecting laundry. And another day awaits.

P.S. I understand the reason for the behaviors (the underlying trauma), but I just don't know how to help her heal. This is so frustrating for me, I can't imagine how difficult it has been for this committed foster family who has had the kids for 3 years and refuses to give up on them since they promised theirs would be the kids' last move until they either returned home or were adopted. (They're in their 4th home right now.)

P.P.S. For Lorraine123: My earlier post (the one that offended you) was aimed at Nixie, not anybody else who was trying to help. If you read her first post, you'll see that she encouraged me to listen to my husband (regarding not adopting), implying that we aren't fit to adopt, and she accused the frazzled foster parents of "dumping" the kids to go on vacation (instead of recognizing their need for respite). I was offended by that. But like I said, even when we disagree on here, we can still learn from each other.

[tybeemarie]

My heart goes out to this lost 11 year old girl. She is in a lot of grief and seems stuck in some bad behaviors. Of course, it is easy to feel that way just reading about it when you're not the one that has to go in and prevent her from choking her brother in the dirt.

I understand your frustration, as I think we all do here. It is very hard to get to what is really going on in their traumatized brains, and harder still to figure out what the right response is to these expressions of grief. It is very draining.

It also sounds like the three kids have some hurtful group dynamics going on. I wonder if they don't retraumatize one another from day to day.

Hang in there this week. I'll say a prayer for the kids.

[Lorraine123]

For Lorraine123: My earlier post (the one that offended you) was aimed at Nixie, not anybody else who was trying to help. If you read her first post, you'll see that she encouraged me to listen to my husband (regarding not adopting), implying that we aren't fit to adopt, and she accused the frazzled foster parents of "dumping" the kids to go on vacation (instead of recognizing their need for respite). I was offended by that. But like I said, even when we disagree on here, we can still learn from each other.

whoownsthis -

Thank you for saying this. I totally understand why you were offended and I hope you understand my position. I think all of us are very emotional about our children. Nothing can make us more defensive than someone saying something about our parenting

I know its very hard. You give and give and give and they just take. And then complain that you didn't give enough. We have all been driven to our breaking points. We have all said things we wish we could take back. We aren't perfect, but the fact that we keep on trying makes us pretty good.

I also would understand if you decided that you couldn't parent these children. I think its admirable to know your limits. And like someone else said, there are parents out there who are able to give these children what they need.

I also wanted to comment on Dad's analogy of the dark alley. I liked that. I try so often to imagine how my daughter feels, but I can't. That put it in perspective for me. She jumps every time we walk into the room or touch her. We usually try to let her know we are coming. I keep thinking, you have been here for 2 years and we haven't hurt you, but I guess when its so ingrained, it take such a long time if ever.

Well, I'm digressing. I agree we can learn. If nothing else, we realize we aren't alone in this. Parenting damaged children is such an isolating experience. Its nice to know that others are going through it also .

[dadfor2]

thanks lorraine about commenting on 'the dark alley'...there are so many times that i just want to say to my kids "get over it!!!!!!!!"

i kept trying so hard to figure out how they felt, why couldnt they get it, why did they have to be in fight/flight mood all the time....

then i put myself in their shoes, and think about unsafe situations and how my body reacts to it...thats when i thought of the dark alley. i think we all have found ourselves in situations where our body went on automatic because we didnt feel safe.

like lorriane said.....we are all not perfect, its hard to be when our kids sometimes just dont 'get it'.

tybeemarie pointed out something that was very insightful.

my two boys were seperated from their 6th foster home placement due to being trauma reactive to each other.

even though they didnt cause the abuse together, seeing each other just triggered all the past abuse issues. sort of like sticking a victim with their attacker.....

they felt the boys couldnt heal while living together because seeing each other just kept triggering the abuse.

3 yrs later, we come in, they feel they are ready to live together and boom...

we are not convinced that they are trauma reactive to each other, but we are not convinced that they arent either.

more will be reveiled on that.....

but i will tell you, that even though a child might understand what the conversation was two minutes ago.....things can change one minute later.

thats actually very common for all kids. how many does a parent have to tell their child 'dont throw sand at billy".....my guess, more then once....

kllee brought up nanny 911.... what is up with that?....my God!!!!!

i often look at some of those kids and think....they act just llike mine.....

i guess the difference is, that in 1 week, those kids get it together, but with our kids....they just keep going and going and going...and alot of us do what the nanny does.......

We actually have their daily day charts posted on the fridge....they get up at the same time, they eat at the same time, they go to bed at the same time...blah blah blah.....got to keep the structure....

i use to complain to the workers that we couldnt run our house like an residential.....well, 6 months into it....i guess we can.....lol....of course adding the love and affection...

but again, were not perfect, but we do the best we can.

[whoownsthis]

Well said, everybody!

[elismommy5]

Hi, im kinda new here my name is melissa i've posted a few times about other stuff, we're in the process of adopting and i've been reading this post and i just wanted to make a comment.I don't know if it'll help or not.

I was abused when i was little for quite a long time and every time i was scared or nervous i would be mean or act angry it was the only way i felt i could protect myself. I was really hard to get along with. Even now after all these years and with a great husband sometimes when i get nervous i have to stop and tell myself everything is OK. So i guess what im trying to say is these kids aren't trying to be bad out of spite they probably don't even realize why they're doing it, kids can't think rationally like adults can so we have to be patient with them especially when they have been through alot. I don't think you're being bad foster parents i think it takes alot to do respite care. I just think this is normal behavior for kids who have been abused. sorry to ramble just my two cents...

[kllee4]

Thanks for sharing that, Elismommy5.

I felt something stir within me when dadfor2 described how his son explained that he couldn't help his behavior because that was how his brain worked. That was profound! I couldn't imagine what turmoil and uncertainty is brewing inside of them and how certain past events may resurface time and time again until true healing takes place from the constant love and sacrifice given by their parents (you guys)! Wow!

[tybeemarie]

Elismommy,

Thank you for sharing with us. It is always so valuable to hear from adult survivors of child abuse and neglect. It is a very meaningful reminder that the hard work we do as parents one day will bear fruit.

If you feel comfortable sharing, what things helped you when you felt angry or scared? What helped you get past behavior issues? Specifically, what do you suggest we as parents can do to help our children heal when they are having these strong feelings?

Thank you again for your generosity in posting.

[elismommy5]

When i was little i had alot of anxiety and i whined ALOT i paced, cried ,hand wringing, worried to excess and would have angry outbursts, i would tug at peoples clothes to get them to pay attention to my whining i felt like i was having a nervous break down basically. what i needed was somebody to hold me and tell me everything was ok that the world wasn't ending that nothing bad was happening and i needed this said OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN and i know this gets on your nerves and it gets old having to do this everyday but thats what i needed. If i didn't get reassured that everything was ok i would just get worse and i would start acting out.

I needed to be shown that everything was ok that it was safe i needed to be shown that doors locked and that people where going to be where they were supposed to be. I think that you just have to be very paitent. i know i was really a pain in the butt (and i still am sometimes ). but kids can and do recover im a wife and mother and im happy and i have a good life thanks to people like you guys who took me from the situation i was in and took the time to tell me over and OVER again it was ok. Other than that i would just like to add that most of the time alot of my problems always started from the feelings that i had NO control over what was happening to me and that is the worst feeling in the world. so it would probably be a good idea to let the kids have something they have a little control of .

[Nixie]

My intentions are not to offend anyone. I do this job day in and day out. I love the kids I work with and I hate to hear the complaining of these children's behaviors. I hate to hear people complaining about what they have to put up with. These poor babies have been put through it and we have to remember that. If any person cannot handle their behaviors, then they do not need to adopt. These children need someone to commit to them and love them no matter what! The last thing they need is for someone to judge them and not be there for them. So many foster parents expect these children to act as though they have had structure, love, and discipline all their life once they walk in through their doors or shortly after.
The worst thing a foster parent can do is let a foster child know there is one more person running way from them, as if they are to blame for who they are.

Just my two cents.

As for my "dumping them" statement. I know foster parents need time to themselves and taking a day or to is understandable. But when do these kids get a vacation and feel like a normal family?? It is dumping! I am sure those kids have to feel it is dumping, how could they not??

[lucyjoy]

Nixie-

A lot of times, parents use forums like this to vent the frustrations of living with the behaviors so what they bring to the kids is an empathetic, understanding and loving. While the behaviors often frustrate me, I do feel much sadness for the pain my children have suffered and the things in life they've missed.

I also think agencies need to do a better job of preparing parents for what they should expect and how they should address these behaviors when they arise in ways that best promote healing. Then the parents will not be caught off guard or shocked when things arrive.

I would never have dreamed of any kid doing half the things my kids have done. And even understanding those behaviors come from hurt, anger, and lack of control of their lives doesn't always take away the immediate shock from a fist or pee in a bottle.

The kids should not be blamed. But parents do need a break. There are times parents take vacations without bio kids. If they need a break, they need to take it. I don't really think that's dumping the kids. When I vacation, sometimes the kids go and sometimes they don't. It depends on the type of vacation and if it's something for kids or better for adults.

[whoownsthis]

I dropped the kids off at their bus stop this morning to head back to school after Spring Break. Their foster family made it back early this morning, so they were still in bed. They'll greet the kids today when they get home from school.

Wow, what a week! In addition to having to report the suicide talk ("I wish I was dead!"), we also had to report sexualized behavior by the 11-yr-old toward our 14-yr-old son when he came to spend this past weekend with us. The social worker told us at first just to "let it go" since we didn't have all of the facts (our son was embarrassed and didn't want to talk), but when I asked her what would happen if the girl turned the tables on the story like she often does, making our son the instigator instead of herself, that got the social worker worried, so she told us to at least document time, place, and the few details we know (inappropriate sexual comments from her to him). Of course, I'm also thinking this could be "normal" preteen curiosity and teasing, but since we're a licensed foster home, we just can't risk not documenting or reporting it...just in case.

I spoke with the worker this morning after dropping the kids off (gave them all big hugs and told them to "work hard and have fun" this week at school). I talked to the worker about the constant fighting between them, and asked her if she thought it could be that "trauma reactive" stuff that dadfor2 has mentioned before. She said she didn't know, but that it wouldn't matter because the county wouldn't want to separate them. I asked if the kids would benefit from "family therapy" (all three together plus the foster family), she said they've had that for 3 years. Apparently the therapist did a role reversal game with the kids, having foster kids play bio kids and vice versa. She said they were doing better for a while, but everyone thinks the kids have regressed since the TPR hearing back in January with all of this time and still no answer.

Will they improve if the judge rules for TPR and they know they'll get an adoptive family? Will the adoptive family be prepared and have all of the therapy resources they need to help these kids heal, and to remain patient, understanding, and committed so that the adoption doesn't disrupt?

Their future is so uncertain and I can feel a part of what they must be feeling right now--that frustration and anger and grief, not knowing what their future holds. Part of me says, "They just need the right therapy, and we could find it for them. Maybe we should still try to adopt!" But that's the heart speaking, and my brain says, "It will take years for these children to be ready to attach to their family and to each other. In the meantime, it could tear our family apart, especially if the oldest girl's sex-talk and innuendo become more than just talk." I just hope the county will find a therapeutic home for them with no other children, who won't take the anger and verbal abuse personally.

Just wanted to get that off my chest...and to take a deep breath.