[whoownsthis]

P.S. Husband and I agreed tonight that we're going to ask that our Letter of Intent (to adopt these 3) be removed from their file. We really are not prepared (mentally and physically) to parent such emotionally battered children. I just hope and pray that their adoptive family is warned ahead of time and given all of the resources they need to get them healthy! All the love in the world will not heal these children without effective therapy.


And to Kamamsm: Just wanted to back you up here. I've never heard of the water thing, but I have read about how dangerous RAD kids' rages can be--to themselves and others (just read of a mom whose nose was broken by a toddler!). If that's what it takes to snap them back to reality, and a therapist agrees, then that's what it takes.

To everyone else, before you start accusing a parent of abuse, walk a mile in her shoes!

[tybeemarie]

It sounds like you have made a careful, informed decision. Good for you for doing the research, being honest with yourselves, and recognizing your expectations and limitations. That is the best thing to do for these children.

I do believe that there is a family for these children out there somewhere. I will say a prayer for them tonight. It was very sad to read the oldest child's heartbreaking statements about her situation--that her biomom can't care for them, and that adoptive parents won't keep them because of their behavior. There is a world of hurt and hard-won insight in those statements. But somewhere, there is an experienced, therapeutic home that will be able to help these children heal.

I have followed your posts, and I know how much time and effort and research you have dedicated to this. Take care of yourselves. It's hard to come to this kind of decision, I know.

[whoownsthis]

Thanks so much tybeemarie. That is much appreciated, and also comforting! I just hope our county finds the right family!!!

[shycar]

Ok I cant stay quite. I keep coming back and re-read everything over again. First of all I dont not want to offend anyone. We are here to help one another and sometimes we have to be honest to help. There are two main things I would like to mention.

First one is comparing them to your sons. I never thought it fair to compare one child to another. They are all individual, who act and deal to things diffrently then others. Your sons were raised in a loving home. These kids were not. They need extra time and love. The oldest is a Girl. Believe me what you mention of her sounds normal for an 11 yr old girl. Girls tend to be more snotty ( I hate that word lets say more outspoken). I know I was. Girls also tend to be more sensitive then boys. I noticed that you complained more on the girls then the boy and maybe you have step back and remind yourself that they are girls and react different then your sons. My brother and I are as different as night and day and we were raised by the same loving family. I have been a foster mom for 3 years and Im still learning. Some things work on some and does not on others.

The second thing is attitude. I sense that you have a bad attitude twords these children. I feel that you are only seeing the negative of these kids. I do not believe that a child can be all bad there is always something good. We all have times like this, I know I have, but when I or others notice and mention it to me I change my attitude. I change to positive. Maybe start rewarding them for the good stuff, dont worry so much on the bad. Try to sit and think back and see all the good qualities. I bet youll see they have lots. Maybe instead of sending the 6 year old to bed earlier, I know if my parents did that to me Id give them hell, dont read her a bed time story. She wants your attention, thats prob why she is having tantrums, mention that if she goes and gets ready for bed quietly that you will read her a book of her choosing and to have it ready for you. That way if she goes and behaves she is being rewarded. My kids loved the time I spent with them. I make sure to go to the one that lose patience faster, that way they wouldnt fail. You should really think if you can be possitive in any situation. Kids will always surpirse you especially foster kids and sometimes we need to laugh and go on. I know I do it all the time. I believe if you can not change your attitude then maybe this is not for you. I do not want to discourage anyone, but I do not think it is fair for children to be in a home that will not deal with there problems in a positive way. Fostering is very hard and some people can not do it and that is nothing wrong with it. I hope that things will get better for you. Good luck

Oh sorry one more thing please try and try to be more positive. These kids probably sense you dont like them and they will keep misbahaving until you change your attitude twords them.

[whoownsthis]

OK, let me set the record straight here. Just because I'm reporting to all of you their negative behaviors for the past 4 days doesn't mean that I'm walking around with a sour look on my face screeching out orders! Yes, when they are helpful, I praise them. When they smile, I tell them what beautiful smiles they have, and how their teeth just sparkle from that fanstastic teeth-brushing job. When they do simple chores (making own beds, bringing own laundry down, hanging up own towels), I praise them.

We are firm with them, but with a calm and controlled voice. Yes, they are testing us, but we are not backing down. (I got heck for that a few months ago when the boy raged at dinner and my husband threatened a consequence, but then gave in when the boy apologized later.)

If these kids felt we hated them, I seriously doubt the oldest girl would have let her sorrow and grief pour out like that! We are consistent, loving, and firm. We've learned not to fight battles we can't win (hey, if it's 38 degrees outside and the boy insists over and over that he won't need his coat, fine. The natural consequence is that he'll be cold. HIS problem, and one he'll hopefully learn from.) Yep, I've read the "Parenting with Love and Logic" book and the "Parenting the Hurt Child" book, and several others that are always recommended here.

The reason I'm mentioning the oldest girl so much is because she is the one who is the instigator. The others follow her lead! If people don't like the word snotty, then please give me another to describe this kind of behavior:

Parent: "Hey kids, that looks like a fun card game, what is it?"
Oldest girl: (evil look at me, then back to game)
Parent: (still happy, friendly voice, trying to engage the kids) "Oh, is it Slap Jack?"
Oldest girl: (incredulous) "No! G-d you're stupid! Don't you know any card games? Jeez, I can't believe they let you teach college!"
Parent: (firm, calm voice) "A, there is no need for that kind of rude response. Remember the one rule we follow in this house? To respect others in your words and actions. I think you need to sit in your quiet spot (the couch in another room) and think about that for a while."

(Her response was throwing the cards all over the room and screaming "I hate you" and stomping up to her bedroom.)

Anyway, that's my last post. I'm done defending myself. I appreciate everyone's input.

[Lorraine123]

I've never heard of the water thing, but I have read about how dangerous RAD kids' rages can be--to themselves and others (just read of a mom whose nose was broken by a toddler!). If that's what it takes to snap them back to reality, and a therapist agrees, then that's what it takes.

To everyone else, before you start accusing a parent of abuse, walk a mile in her shoes!

I am offended that you posted this statement. Everyone was trying to help you and you felt the need to put us down.

I think most of the posters on this site have walked a mile or two or three in her shoes. I have been spit on, scratched, bit and peed on during a rage. However, I have NEVER thrown water on my daughter to humiliate her. It does nothing to help her heal. Parenting these children isn't about you, its about them. Everything you do should be focused on their healing.

The fact that you back up this type of parenting tells me that you are not ready to parent damaged children.

[Lorraine123]

Parent: "Hey kids, that looks like a fun card game, what is it?"
Oldest girl: (evil look at me, then back to game)
Parent: (still happy, friendly voice, trying to engage the kids) "Oh, is it Slap Jack?"
Oldest girl: (incredulous) "No! G-d you're stupid! Don't you know any card games? Jeez, I can't believe they let you teach college!"
Parent: (firm, calm voice) "A, there is no need for that kind of rude response. Remember the one rule we follow in this house? To respect others in your words and actions. I think you need to sit in your quiet spot (the couch in another room) and think about that for a while."

(Her response was throwing the cards all over the room and screaming "I hate you" and stomping up to her bedroom.)

One more thing - this sounds like a typical conversation in our house and it is an opportunity to teach a damaged child that disrespect is not allowed. If you are posting this to prove a point of how snotty your daughter is, it just proves to me how much she needs loving parents and how much she is calling out for help. She needs to be taught what is acceptable.

[kamamsm]

In regard to the cold water:
Well her therapist agreed it was not only appropriate but worked very well. My child went from 5 different psych drugs three times a day, not being able to sit for five minutes to have a conversation, no eye contact, not being able to read or do simple addition--- to having NO meds period, being able to read & do math & phonics & soc. studies, being able to paint with me for a hour at a time or watch a whole movie together. She no longer touches other children in their privates, nor does she grab food off someone else' plate. She lies much less & steals much less.
She also is giving hugs & behaving with much more empathy. She also has friends now. She had NONE before. Her case worker also approved of the cold water. And everyone agrees she's made more progress in our home than in the years of foster care! We take it one day at a time.
As for it being for my benefit-- how ridiculous! I used a variety of things to get her to quit raging-- from singing while she was screaming - to throwing a fit with her. How did water help me when my furniture was destroyed or belongings? And I mean destroyed- with whatever sharp instrument she could get.
You folks have so many preconceived ideas about what is correct & not, but you weren't there when it was me she opened up to about the sexual abuse she'd endured in her birth family. You didn't get to see the inch by inch progress. You have no idea how we talked & rocked & started over & over & over. You have no clue how dearly this child is loved or how much she now loves in return.
Lastly- it isn't so creative to think of a way for them not to tantrum. It is wonderful when they no longer HAVE to tantrum. I don't mean to argue- and especially DAD I respect you alot- but I still say you don't go along with any horrendous behavior because they came from foster care. Many of these kids know you can't or won't punish them. I have seen foster kids dare people to make them mind.
Ok- off my box now.lol.

[kamamsm]

One last - really last- thing.
I think we should all acknowledge that there is more than one "way" of parenting successfully. Children must be dealt with as individuals with their own unique needs and concerns.

[NDN]

While I think that foster care will naturally cause issues with children, I see the behavior that you describe in children in their bio families--far too oftern, IMO.

While I believe that the behavior is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with, they often result from a lack of consistency. No doubt, foster care is a definite source of inconsitancy.

The child needs to be dealt with using gentle, consistent discipline. There wasn't much background about the foster family, but since they haven't even called--I'm guessing that they are enjoying the break because they are exhausted, which makes it virtually impossible to be consistent.

These children sound like they are easy, for foster children. However, older foster children will naturally be more difficult than children that come into your home as babies. When they have been with you from the beginning, they know your rules and have had your guidance. This is not the case when they have been moved around, and they will naturally react to the inconsistancy.

[dadfor2]

id like to comment on a few things that i read...

lorraine.....that sounded like a typical conversation in my house too..... except i get a few curse words in the mix...lol.

whoownsthis,
not sure what you mean 'snap the kids back into reality'......our reality, or theirs?...their reailty of the world is a very unsafe place. People are not to be trusted.

my reality is just the opposite. i can trust people, and i do believe that the world mostly is a safe place.

so again, whos reality are we snapping these kids back into?

ok, let me see if i can explain this better....this is how some of these kids feel...

heres an exercise that you might consider doing to help you understand how these kids feel ALL THE TIME..

dont think you will take me up on the challenge, but ill put it down anyway

tonight, at about 1am in the morning...drive alone in a bad section of town...get our of your car....then start walking around...when you come across a dark alley way, start walking in it...

keep walking.....deeper and deeper into it...

start noticing your body...your body will tighten up, its automatic...your eyes and ears open...you see things that move that actually didnt...you hear things because your ears are so sensitve to sound at this point...even a rustle of a leaf sounds so intence that you might even react to it..

your heart starts racing...your blood pressure will probably rise, and you will probaby get some sort of anxiety as you slowly walk through the dark alley way....

What if before you took the trip tonight and i told you that there is nothing to worry about, you will feel safe....when you hit that alley way, i can bet that your body will still tighten up....and go on automatic...fight or flight mode.

these kids are constantly walking in the dark alley. they never see the light, and we can tell them time and time again that they shouldnt be scared, and the dark alley cant hurt them.....but their bodies are on automatic, jsut as yours was, when you walked down the dark alley....

thats how they feel, all the time. And any little movement, words, they will react too...

just as you did when the leaf blown by you...

your head turned so fast and your heart raced....all over a little leaf blowing in the wind.....but you reacted because your sences were so heightened.

when you realized it was just a leaf, you breathed and actually might of chuckled for a second....but never did you let your guard down as you continued down the dark alley.

now, after i just told you that there is nothing to be scared of...it would take alot of convincing on my part for you to totally believe me.

we are adults, who can reason and think abstractly, we knew that leaf couldnt hurt us...but these are kids and they are very black and white.

my point is, that our kids feel like they are walking down dark alley ways...danger might be at every turn, and their sences are so heightened.

"So for anyone to accuse foster parents of "dumping" kids to go on vacation, you just don't understand what it is to parent a hurt child day in and day out. Multiply that by 3, and you'll understand why the family needs the break! "

as for the foster parents, i never said they were dumping them. All i said was what message the kids were getting because the foster family hadnt called.

belive me, i have no problems with families taking respite away from their kids...these kids are tough....but the children do see and hear everything and know that the foster parents did not call...even if they have a good reason...what was the message the kids got? that was my point.

quote
"walk a mile in her shoes!"

i have and i still am....people have no idea what its like to parent kids with these emotional problems then other parents who have....my suggestions and advice are coming from helping my children heal and what i have learned over the years.

and yes, it will be different from what other parents might write, but my suggestions are what have been helping my children. Its one of those things...take what you like and leave the rest....


so please dont assume that i have no idea what im talking about. I do have a linking on what is going on with the three children in your home...i have two of them.

"Her response was throwing the cards all over the room and screaming "I hate you" and stomping up to her bedroom.)"

if all my son did was stomp his feet, throw the cards and went to his bedroom...i would say "look at the progress....."...

my older son would rip the cards, attack us and his brother, go in his room and throw everything around screaming at the top of his lungs and try to break the window (which is now pexiglass)....

or, he would take a plastic bag and put it over his head and try to sufficate himself because as he says "i just want to be dead..."

i do have an idea on what parents go through.

kamasm,
i agree, i will not use their past abuse as an excuse for behaviors. They need to learn how to act appropriatly. but in the same token, i have to understand why they behave the way they do and work for the outcome that i am looking for, and thats what takes alot of hard work.

as im sure you know.

i guess my big issue is that with what ever method i use, they are watching intensely to see if i can keep them safe.

none of the kids really want to behave poorly. but they dont have any other tools to work with yet. So as parents, we have to teach them. remember, they are constantly feeling like they are walking down dark alleyways....so there reactions are understandable

yes, the goal is where they dont tantrum anymore...and i can honestly say today, that i am now the father for my younger son, where time outs, tantrums, just dont exist anymore....

"To everyone else, before you start accusing a parent of abuse"

i dont remember reading that anyone is accusing anyone of abuse.

The issue i have with the water, is what is that teaching them? and thats what we have to keep in the back of our minds when we discipline our children.

when a child is out of control, and i know its diffulcult, sometimes they just need to be loosely held if its about safty. but enough pressure where they are not flaring their arms and trying to hit you. Some kids need to be contained in order to feel safe.

There are a million ways to parent kids...but i think with all kids, we have to remember what ever it is we are doing, is that our kids will repeat because it is considered acceptable.

so if throwing water on a angry child, then it tells the child that its ok to throw water on other kids who might be yelling.....

my kids learned from their bmom, that its okay to hit, scream, say nasty things to us, bite us, scratch us,...becuase their birthfamily did it to them, and who are we to tell them that its not ok.....thats what they grew up with.....and my job is to teach them thats its not ok to hit.

we all do it, we teach them that everyday.....

so i guess thats my issue with the water....its not that its abusive, but its teaching them its okay to throw water on someone who might be angry....

and if they did it...there is really nothing we can say to them, because if we do it to them, then its teaching them that it is acceptable behavior...and isnt that what were all trying to do.

I tell my kids not to use bad words....we dont. i tell my kids not to hit, we dont.

what ever i teach my kids, i have to be doing it too, otherwise, they will be getting mixed messages.

thats the issue i have with the water....it could backfire, because you cant really expect them not to throw water on someones head, when their parents do it.

hopefully im making sence. not sure if it does

whoownsthis quote:
"Parent: "Hey kids, that looks like a fun card game, what is it?"
Oldest girl: (evil look at me, then back to game)
Parent: (still happy, friendly voice, trying to engage the kids) "Oh, is it Slap Jack?"
Oldest girl: (incredulous) "No! G-d you're stupid! Don't you know any card games? Jeez, I can't believe they let you teach college!"
Parent: (firm, calm voice) "A, there is no need for that kind of rude response. Remember the one rule we follow in this house? To respect others in your words and actions. I think you need to sit in your quiet spot (the couch in another room) and think about that for a while."

just want to point out...you did a great job whoownsthis.....

if you keep doing this constantly, the kids might actually 'get it'......

i dont doubt that we are all trying our best for our kids...i know first hand how tough this can get.

I wish there are times when i can take things back that i have said to my sons......they put us in such a place that we never thought we would be.

whoownthis....
respite and adoption are very different. adoption is when you will have the kids for a while, you get to know what triggers them, you get to know when they are just about to blow (sometimes).....you and your kids become one....

it is very different. i cant imagine doing respite for a few days with no real connection to the kids and having to deal with their issues.

i think it was very nice of you to take them in for these foster parents that needed time away..so i give you credit for that. I know you did it more then once...

i wonder if you would of thought differently about these kids if they were placed in your home with you as pre-adoptive...

i would like to point out, that i think with some parents of these kids, there are moments that we just 'dont like them'....they are hard kids to like....even though intelectually, we can say "we love the child, just dont like the behavior"'......

when some of us are going through it, yes, sometimes its hard to seperate the child and the behaviors...

i do understand....and none of my posts were about judging anyone else...hope people realize that.

i think its fine to disagree with someone and sometimes thats what helps people think of other ideas...

[dadfor2]

kamamsm quote:
"having NO meds period, being able to read & do math & phonics & soc. studies, being able to paint with me for a hour at a time or watch a whole movie together. She no longer touches other children in their privates, nor does she grab food off someone else' plate. She lies much less & steals much less.
She also is giving hugs & behaving with much more empathy. She also has friends now. She had NONE before."


kamamsm,
hmmmmm...was it the water? or was it all the other hard work that you have done to keep her safe. Could it be the love that you have for her that she now believes is real. Could it be that you have proven to her that you are forever and she is stay there to stay.

could it be the way you cuddled with her time and time again when it made her uncomfortable. could it be that you taught her that lying and stealing were not the best way to handle problems? could it be that you showed empathy to her and she learned what that is?

could you have possible made her feel so safe that she can now breath and let her brain start learning vs trying to control things in order to keep safe.

personally, i dont think it was the water...i think it was you who loved her when many others would of turned their backs.....and now she is healing....

dont cut yourself short here....i think there was alot more going on then just the water.

[leenab]

kamamsm,
were you dealing with sensory issues by any chance? my son has them and honestly when he starts to loose it we send him to the bathroom to wash his hands and face. Water is really soothing for him. If he's really out of it, a nice bath works well. And he loves it. Just an idea.

I know we've all been through the ringer with these children. And some of us repeatedly open ourselves up for more children. It does get easier and a lot of it is just figuring out how to parent a hurt child, and the same things don't work for each one. So it's a lot of trial and error.

For my personal benefit I like to use the "mommy time out", you know where you lock yourself in a room for five minutes.

Being a parent is so difficult so I encourage everyone to just lock themselves in a room for 5 minutes a day when things are really crazy (provided all the children are contained in safe places where they can't injure themselves).

Hang in there,
LeenaB

[kamamsm]

Dad- It was a mixture, a combination, and ofcourse all the time & attention & trust that is built. But that doesn't alter the fact that the water did alot of good at that time. Would it be appropriate now? No-I haven't used that method in a long long time. Haven't needed to. What I don't understand is why it upsets people so much that children need immediate cause & effect in their lives. If a child takes a tumble on a playground because of a thoughtless act- the next time they will be more careful. Every mammal teaches their child this concept-- except humans, who now decry rational thinking as irrational because these kids come from extremely difficult situations.Please know that I am entirely supportive of and utilize, effective thereputic tools in managing the troubles my daughter has; but I won't throw away common sense merely because to some, it's out of the box thinking. And that is what I was trying to explain to this person who wrote about the kids from respite. If you are going to handle kids in foster care you almost need a doctorate in "out of the box". I felt like she got really jumped for saying the truth- that the behavior some of these children exhibit is obnoxious. While I totally agree that these kids have a right to anger & obviously they have problems, I take issue that all behavior is systemic from their bio-families/ problems. Some behavior is bratty behavior from kids who've never been taught & know how to work the system where they are never made to learn anything. Having had a horrendous life will not keep an employer from firing you if you explode on the job! Prison is awhole lot worse that a glass of cold water- but its a real eye-opener too. I'm not meaning to be dramatic. If they don't learn as children how are they ever going to survive as adults? Alas- when people care as much as we all do- points, whether valid or obscure, are difficult to explore.

[dadfor2]

leena,

i have done that too...."daddy needs a time out now..." and boy did i ever....

sometimes i had to regroup myself...for fear of yelling or saying something that will cause them to regress again....

i agree, sometimes even the parents need to take a break....of course providing that no one is in immediate danger...