[mpatrick]

I am just curious how some would feel if the girl were 18 years old and the boy 17? Does that change anything, afterall that is still underage by law? Or are there double standards? What if they are both underage? Would the girl have rights to her child? would the boy? Is it more of a crime or less of a crime no matter what the circumstances?

This isn't cut and dry. I am sorry, but I believe that people can make "bad" choices without being considered some horrible criminal. I do think what my sil did was wrong, but I also think that the 50something women that got involved with a 17 year old from my parent's church and then later they married and have been married for almost 10 years is wrong. Nothing was done about that and they lead their own lives without her ever having to spend a day in prison.

What I am getting at is, people do crazy, weird things that we may not agree with but we don't always know the whole story. We can't sit here and make judgements over laws governed by man as if they apply in every circumstance. Yes, the laws are there to protect us and I do respect that, but it still doesn't make every situation cut and dry.

For example, I am sure there isn't one person here that can say they have never broken a law. Afterall, speeding is breaking the law; speeding will get you a ticket, but only if you get caught. My sil had the misfortune to get caught. It doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of thousand of others out there that commit the same or similar crime and never have to pay a day in their life much less the rest of their life.

Maybe I am just more sympathetic because she is my sil, but I like to think I have empathy for others too. Judge as you may, I don't agree that a 15 year old isn't old enough to make a decision on who he or she has sex with. I also don't think my sil should have to pay for her mistake forever, she paid with a year in prison.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

I agree... she paid her debt and has to register as a sex offender...she shouldnt have to pay for the rest of her life. And i-to some degree- agree with the issue of where were the boy's parents. In most (I dont want to say all, in case it isnt true) Areas, an 18/17 year old match is not the same thing....In some areas the age of consent is 15....in some it is 16...in some it is the age gap that determines it (2 years or more I think....). I totally go back to the teacher thing from earlier....The 34 year old teacher having sex and conceiving with a 12 years old is (IMO) far worse than the 22 year old having sex with a 15 year old...but who is getting lynched? I think that parents have a right to prosecute offenders against their children (and they SHOULD), but they should also hold their children accountable for their actions and look at what was dont to lead them to make such a bad choice. I feel very sorry for people who do their time and pay their debt, but still have to go on paying.... Like the issue recently in CA where that poor man was released after serving his time, he had to register as a sex offender, and no one will let him move to their neighborhood. He has to keep paying, and paying, and paying....and that is not fair... we dont make our murderers, drunk drivers, or any other type of felon do that sort of thing....Once people pay their debt, they should be able to live their lives. Yes I want my child safe, but I take part of the responsibility in that. Notifying me that a sex offender is moving to the neighborhood should not give me a license to lynch someone.
I dont think this is black and white. She admitted her crime, she served her time.... if it is black and white, then her debt should be paid and she should be able to live her life. Would this be happening if she concieved right before going to jail and didnt give birth until recently? Or is she paying because of the timing of delivery??
Food for thought....

[3girls1boy]

I know you didn't mean to compare sex with a minor with speeding,but you did. This really is a serious offense. You can put in all these hypothetical what ifs- but reality is different. She was 26, he was 15. She had other children, she was a parent. My guess is this wasn't a singular act. She repeatedly had sex and became pregnant. This wasn't a speeding ticket she get caught for. We can talk about "what ifs", but should deal with "what was."

I am sorry for her, she obviously has some emotional problems to even take part in this relathionship. I am sure she loves her daughter, and I really do think as a birthmother she has some rights to her child. However at this time I would think her rights involve visitation and not custody. Is she getting her older children back? That right there would play into a judge's decision. I really would try to approach the foster family about being part of an open adoption. I really hope they are open to it. I know your heart is in the right place, I know you want the best for everyone, I hope the foster family recognizes that. You and your SIL could be a wonderful addition to your niece's life. I honestly hope it works out for you, but again, more importantly I hope it works out for the baby.

[KellyStacy]

Its amazing how when the word adoption comes into play that now everyone is thinking something needs to be done.As far as I know the biological family could have came forward for this child before all this time.I fully understand what you are saying that a parent has a right everyone makes mistakes,but think for once about that baby.This baby has attached himself/herself to caregivers that is the only people this baby knows.Apparently the foster family loves this baby and are willing to adopt this child.Not to be blunt but where was the biological family when this child entered foster care? This is the major problems with the system.A child is not something that should be constantly put on hold until someone gets their life in order,and unfortunately too many times that is done.Then the child has attachment issues and a lot of emotional problems.Think about that baby and the family this child now knows I just think its cruel to pull a child away from that!

[mpatrick]

I dont think this is black and white. She admitted her crime, she served her time.... if it is black and white, then her debt should be paid and she should be able to live her life. Would this be happening if she concieved right before going to jail and didnt give birth until recently? Or is she paying because of the timing of delivery??

numbr1dbcksfan, thank you. I agree.

I know you didn't mean to compare sex with a minor with speeding,but you did. This really is a serious offense.

Yes, I did...Would speeding become a more serious offense if we hit and killed someone? Aren't speeding laws put into place to protect us?...much like the laws against children? I am trying to illustrate that this case is not cut and dry. This boy was at an age to be held somewhat accountable.

She repeatedly had sex and became pregnant.

Yes, and "he" repeatedly had sex and got her pregnant.

I am sorry for her, she obviously has some emotional problems to even take part in this relathionship.

I have to agree. She didn't have an idea relationship with her mother growing up...I think a lot stems from that. Her mother married a man younger than herself. Oh, and so did I...my husband is 5 years younger than me...but don't worry he was 23 and I was 28 at the time.

However at this time I would think her rights involve visitation and not custody.

I am beginning to think this would be the best solution all around. It would give her time to finish school and she is still young enough to start a family under better circumstances. Thank you for your support.

KellyStacy,

As far as I know the biological family could have came forward for this child before all this time.

Yes, you are right, but I am the only one, besides the child's mother that has expressed interest in this child. My sil's parents and the father's parents want nothing to do with her...I think the situation is very sad. My support comes from people on here and my own family. I didn't have any contact with my sil while she was in prison. I didn't even know the baby was born until a month after she had it and then I found out it was in foster care. At the time, my husband and I were in a small house that wasn't big enough for this baby, but I did call the SW and inquired about fostering her. I am just beginning to learn about the foster care system. I didn't know my rights so much 9 months ago, and the SW wasn't going to help me learn them. My beliefs were that my sil would get her baby back after she was out of prison. So, we are only talking about two bio-family members that even care enough to try and do something, and one was in prison. This baby is only 9 months old.
I have expressed already that I am mainly concerned about my sil losing all contact with her baby. I am not trying to tear a family apart...that is not my intent. After reading the many post here, I definitely have a greater respect for what foster families go through. This is a real learning experience for me.

[MommaD]

The part that makes this so bad is that she knew what she was doing was wrong. She knew the risks, maybe she didn't really think about them, but unless she lived under a rock she knew. And now that she's paying the price it's all of a sudden unfair. We can't just do what we want to in this world, we all have the same rules and if we decide not to follow them then we pay. And we all know that.

The what-if's should have been on sil's part before she started this affair. We don't get to decide what the price is for our crimes, and this isn't a fair world. It irritates me to hear grown-ups saying the equivalent of "but it's not fair". Also, the "but so-and-so did it" doesn't fly. Maybe that 50 year old woman and that 17 year old boy got married before they had sex, and his parents gave permisson? In my state if your sil and this boy had gotten married, with his parents blessings, before they had sex then there would have been no crime.

But all that doesn't really matter. She is paying for what she did, fair or unfair. Her daughter is paying for what she did. Again, the best interests of this baby should be #1 to all involved. SIL's feelings should come after baby's best interests. Just like my children's best interests come before my feelings/wants. As do yours, I'm sure.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

And now that she's paying the price it's all of a sudden unfair.

Right...but was the price a jail sentence, etc....or was she sentenced to lose her child? Obviously the answer is in how the law is written, but if had her child later, would she still be paying with the loss of her daughter. That is my question. I guess fair is the wrong word....right is a better one. Is what is happening right? Should she go to prison AND lose her baby? That, I dont think, was part of the sentence....

[MommaD]

**Should she go to prison AND lose her baby? That, I dont think, was part of the sentence....**

If the law says that DHS can not place a child in the custody of a registered sex offender (as it does in my state), then yes, that is part of the sentence.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but this is a harsh situation. The judge and the caseworkers and all the people who make the decisions know the details of this case. The judge ruled knowing the details (in the criminal case AND the custody case). I don't think, unless we know the whole story we can second guess that decision.

**Obviously the answer is in how the law is written, but if had her child later, would she still be paying with the loss of her daughter. That is my question. **

I don't know. The devil is in the details, and we don't really know what those are. Again, we are what-ifing. SIL took the chance that all the worst answers to the what-ifs could come true when she DECIDED to have a sexual relationship with a child.

Such a sad situation

[tlc4kidz]

mpatrick,
I was talking with a fp friend about your situation, just to see what she thought and she had a good point. She thought it shouldn't matter what state you live in...either in jail or not, your sil would have received a letter stating a tpr trial would be occuring and the date and time. No court in the country is going to just terminate parental rights without notifying the parent. I'm not saying that courts have never wrongfully tpr'ed OR that DSS and even fp's for that matter are always on the up-and-up, but I would think the court would have to prove that your sil was notified in a timely manner that this was going to occur.

I have no personal experience with this, because we are just beginning the tpr/adopt process, but I have talked with plenty of people that have and it is my understanding that the goodbye visit occurs after the tpr is granted. If you aren't getting anywhere with the sw could you go to where your sil is and look over all the papers she received while in jail? Is it possible she got something that she was supposed to respond to and didn't understand or wasn't given opportunity to do so?

I think the whole debate over mistake or not will never be agreed on here, and I think until we've walked a mile in someone's shoes we should not judge. Maybe your sil needs this pain in her life because of something she will encounter in the future. All our choices and circumstances prepare us for our life-plan. My sister lost a full-term baby when the umbilical cord strangled her. At the time she never imagined that event would lead her to counsel bereaved parents, but it did. One thing I've learned through fostering is that I can try all I want to control what happens, but ultimately it is not up to me.

[mpatrick]

Maybe that 50 year old woman and that 17 year old boy got married before they had sex, and his parents gave permisson?

She was married alright...but to someone else when they started the affair.

I think you are still missing the point, that being... a 15 year old is responsible enough to know that having sex with a 26 year old is wrong. She was wrong, she went to prison and lost her child, he was wrong and went on with his life with no repercussions. He signed away his parental rights along with his parents.

In my sil's defense, she probably didn't consider the consequences of her actions or I am sure she would have thought better...who knows. My sil does come from a very small town (they don't even have a Walmart) and education in such offenses aren't exactly bountiful, though the crime probably is.

A little education humor...did you know it is now legal to marry your first cousin?...bet you didn't know that!

[numbr1dbcksfan]

If the law says that DHS can not place a child in the custody of a registered sex offender (as it does in my state), then yes, that is part of the sentence.

I guess that is what I am really asking....is the law there written like this, or is it not? If not, then I stick with my opinion... If it IS, then I agree, she took that chance. I guess that hasnt been made clear.

But on another note...should the father, in this type of situation, have rights to the child.. The 12 year old did in the other case...

I know that is a whole other issue....but this boy did not have to take responsibility for the child he created, because his parents stepped in. If she were a younger age, he would have had to support the child and take responsibility for making such an adult decision. Why, in this situation, was he able to just sign away his rights? (Curious, not combative...LOL!)
Isnt the baby a whole separate situation that the parents should not have been able to interfere with?( I got the impression that is what happened.)

[numbr1dbcksfan]

LOL Mpatrick...we must be in cahoots!

[mpatrick]

I just read the past couple of post...it takes me a while to post because my kids want my attention too.

My sil did get TPR papers while she was still in prison(at least that is what I understood). She received the "goodbye visit" notice about two or three weeks ago.

I am still waiting to talk to the social worker...wow, posting all of this makes it seem like it has been weeks, but I have only just begun. I had no contact with my sil until Monday. Her parents, my in-laws will not talk about any of this with me or my husband.

If the law says that DHS can not place a child in the custody of a registered sex offender (as it does in my state), then yes, that is part of the sentence.

This is something I have no idea of...I will have to find out.

numbr1dbcksfan,

I don't know much about the birth father except that he signed away his rights and so did his parents. I did hear that if a minor has a child, that the parents are responsible for child support. This could have played a big factor in why they signed away their rights.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Holy Moly...that is a new one to me....I have never heard of the grandparents having to pay support on behalf of the father....

This is getting weirder and weirder to me.

BUT that WAS my point, should he be able to sign away his rights just to avoid paying support???

[mpatrick]

Think that is weird...my sil has to pay child support for her children in foster care.