[yanknrebel]

Need advice!!! We have twins who will be 1 this month. We have had them since August (6 months). The biomom will NOT be getting these twins back. Everyone knows this. SHe has been ruled mentally incompetent to raise a child. SHe has the mentalcapacity of a 12 year old. SHe has NO family that she can live with or that want the babies. Only her stepbrother and his wife (who she surrendered her last baby to) have any interest in what happenes to these twins. They want us to keep these babies. They know that the biomom can not take care of these babies. The bf is going to surrender. He wants NOTHING to do with these babies. He is only 18, and lives with his grandmother.

Here is my question. THe biomom always askes me the same question after visitation. "If I don't get my twins back, can I call you and check on them". MY response has always been "yes". The last time she asked this, I wanted so much to talk to her about relinquishing her rights and letting us adopt them. However , I did not think it was my place, and I did not want to jeopordize our standing as their foster parents. We want to adopt them, but I did not know if this would make the lawyer and biomom mad. Well, the cw has told me that she has tried to talk biomom into relinquishing her rights. That it would be in the best interest of the twins, to get them perm. very soon. I agree, of course. However, the cw reports that the biomom still wants them back. The cw is adamant that THIS will NOT happen. There has been NO report since the twins were taken into custody that thinks she should get children back. SHe has lost 2 previous children to thei bf (different then the twins bf) and the last baby was given to the stepbrother to adopt. She told me as well as DCS that she cared NOTHING at all about this last baby. SHe only wanted her twins back.

SO, anyway, the cw thinks that I should sit the biomom down, explain that we have the babyies best interests at heart. That we will alollow her to call and check on the babies and even see them from time to time, if she will agree to let us adopt them. My husband's take on this is that IF she fights us on this (dragging this into a long tpr case) that WHEN we finally get tpr, then since she did not have the babies best interest at heart, then we WILL NOT allow any contact with her and the babies. However, if she shows she is thinking about their welfare and thier best interest and reliquishes, then we would allow her to remain in contact. This would not be as a punishment, but it would show us that she knows that she CANNOT physically, emotionally and mentally take care of them. Yet she loves them enough to give them the best life.

I know she loves her babies. I have no doubt about that. However, this is the second time these babies have come into DCS care. We don't want to lose them a second time (which we won't) and I would really like for her to remain in contact but she has to understand (and show us she has the ability to comprehend) that WE will be the twin's parents and we are ALLOWING her to remain a part of their lives. If she doesn't "Get it", regarding her inability to parent, then she will not be able to comprehend that we are the parents and we make the decisions for these babies.

Should I talk to this biomom about this? I finally did to our (previous fd, who we adopted Dec. 28)Kayla's birthfather. We told him IF we got to adopt her that he could call her, come see her (in a public area, with us) as long as he understood we were her parents. SO far he has done well by these rules, and all is good. (Though this man seems to think I am Kayla's "stepmother". HUH?)

Should I try and talk to this biomom? What does everyone think?

[HappyMomAnna]

This is just my opinion--but I really wouldn't myself.

First of all--If she has the mental level of a 12 year old and she does decide to reliquish--In MY MIND I see a possible legal issue--Can a 12 year old actually make this decision? Will this possible be gournds for a whole new fight outside of the protection of children's services? This is just the first thought that hits me.

Secondly--if the twins have been returned to her once--and are now back in care then her real chance of reunification is rather slim.... Children's sevices DOES like it when cases are resolved this way--as this is one less case to manage--and one less project to deal with...so naturally they do LIKE things to get resolved this way!

I am not sure--but are the twins classified as Special Needs? and if they are and the mother relinquishes her rights will YOUR state still offer the adoption assistance--and all the other things that usually come with a child adopted via the system...? I have no clue how this works...(you might know better then I do)

Are they moving toward TPR yet--or is the caseplan still working toward reunification? In some cases (my children) there are Fast Tracks that can be done...Our children had the TPR LESS then a year after they entered care under the ASFA (Adoption and Safe Families Act) due to history--mental health--and lack of meeting any caseplan goals... The adoption was Final less then two years from entering care..... So with some cases this can happen and with her history and issues I cannot see why a Fast Track is not happening.

To me the visitation issues are really not that important. With a TPR you have the right to contact or not. But YOU are not required to have contact and in most cases this is often in the best interest of the children.

I wonder--if her mental ability being that of 12 would even realize what theis "offer" actually means. Most likely once someone tells her that she is no longer the mother she will drift off anyway--If she doesn't then how will that actually play out.... ?
And usually I just feel when the parents --MOST NOT ALL-- are in this situation that contact with the little ones is one thing--when they are 10 and 12 it is completely different.... Do you honestly want a Man who cannot understand that you are not one childs mother and not her step mother AND a 12 year old visiting the rest of your life...That is a lot of crazy to deal with in one family--And I am not convienced that this kind of contact is good for the children as they start putting these things together....

..........I am sort of wondering around here trying to think of why relinquishment would REALLY benifit YOUR family...? Other then to perhaps speed things up. But sometimes time can be good.... Sometimes the safety and experience of meetings in the service center bring to light things you might want to know.....

I guess If I were going to make take this step--I would want to know what is in it for me? I don't really see how it makes a whole lot of difference to the twins...they are little.... But it seems to me you are being asked to GIVE everyone else a BREAK and compromise and do a lot of work!

Work I am not always sure that you should feel is yours to do!

Are you the ONLY family who will have the right to adopt if you wait it out to TPR? Is this an Adoption Placement unless there is reunification?

I don't like the whole idea... I don't like the fact that at a later date she might claim cohersion (sp) If she gives them up that she is showing she loves them--if she fights then she loses anyway and loses them forever--that seems a little worng to me for some reason.... If you were to approah her I would NOT use contct as a carrot...It just seems to smack me in the face as something I would not want to have to tell a mother who is losing her children.....

If children's services is breathing down your back about this--well, I think I would rather have them do the work...They should be talking to her first--I would ask why they don't say this to her--or set a meeting where everyone talks about this together.... but to have you the Foster Family broker a deal seems like...it is Not the way I think we should do things....If the CW thinks this is a good idea...why CAN"T they do the talking?????

I could be wrong this is sort of a new one on me....

[riley6]

As you know, we were in a similar situation with our younger kids. When my kids' bmom first approached me asking me what would happen if she didn't get her kids back and hinting at the possibility of signing the tpr, I told her she needed to first talk to the sw. After bmom did, the sw called me and told me basically what bmom had told me, that she wasn't sure she was going to be able to take care of her kids and she was scared of never seeing them again. I told sw what I wanted in an OA. The sw said absolutely not, that DCFS doesn't do OA, they terminate rights and the kids are to go on with their lives. I told her with my upbringing, I couldn't do that to my kids and I couldn't do that to their mother. We argued about it, but in the end, the sw told me to do what I wanted, but NOT to tell the judge what my plans were.

At the next visit, I told the bmom that I knew she called the sw. She asked me what I thought about her not being able to take care of her kids. I told her that I thought it was sad, but I understood. She said she didn't want her kids to think she just gave them away and that she didn't want them to think she didn't love them. I told her about my growing up years and told her that I would NEVER let her kids think she gave them away or didn't love them.

We talked about OA. She didn't know it was an option. She asked me if I would talk to her mom about this. We called her and she came over to the apartment. The three of us talked while the kids were napping (she had all day visits). I retold everything to the kids' gma. She said that she would support her dd in whatever decision she made. When the kids woke up, we told them what was going on and why bmom wanted us to adopt them. The kids were very happy, which broke my heart, bc bmom was in so much pain. But she never did or said anything damaging to our kids. She stayed supportive of them.

At the hearing, bmom changed her mind and didn't sign the vtpr papers. The judge called a continuance to give more time for evidence. At the next hearing, bmom asked me if she could have the agreement back. I told her yes. Her lawyer wrote up what we had agreed on and gave it to DCFS's lawyer, who brought it to me. He then told me that it wasn't worth the sheet of paper it was written on, but it would give bmom peace of mind to have.

We have had visits every six months. The only thing that bmom did "wrong" was bring her boyfriend/husband (now EXhusband) to the visits. The last time I asked her not to, bc his behavior was very upsetting to me and the kids. We later talked about it and she agreed not to bring him any more.

In a long-winded way, I'm saying that after bmom talks with the sw, and you have the sw's permission, it could be fine to talk to bmom and discuss what arrangements you would be willing to go for. Set up your agreement BEFORE going into court. Understand that bmom might change her mind at the last moment (Could you imagine HOW hard it is to sign away your child?). Know that most sw's are against OA in DCFS cases. Be aware that OA's CAN work in DCFS cases. I have four kids in OA's with their bp's. All DCFS cases.

Does the bmom have an involved mother that might come to the meeting where you discuss things with her? Having Nana there was really helpful to bmom.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I know that in cases where DCFS is involved, it's hard to develop a working relationship with the birthparents, but it can be done and it can work well.

[mrbeansmom]

I don't know, I see some red flags with what you are saying. Being the parent of several children with mild to moderate mental retardation I can assure you that the mom will most likely not get it no matter how you phrase your offers. She may have the best intentions, but 12 year olds are about themselves and can't seriously have anyone else's best interest at heart. She has no way of reaching your expectations. She is in a now win situation from the get go.

As HappyMomAnna brought up, there is also the issue of the legality of her relinquishing. With a couple of our children their mothers were also mentally disabled. The fathers were allowed to relinquish, but the mothers were not. I believe in most cases where mental disabilities are involved the state ~has~ to TPR or it can come back and bite you BIG TIME.

I would let the case take it's course. It sounds like you're going to get the children anyway, but it's just going to take a little longer for the process. Better it takes a little longer than you lose them all together.

[bumpkin]

I also would have concerns about you talkiing to her directly and possible iimpression that you coerced her to relinquish with threat to withold contact if she didn't. I also agree with Riley that these things CAN work out.

Could you bring it up in such a way to explain that if you were asked to adopt them you would and that you would be open to some level of contact and leave it like that. Tell her it's not something you can decide, but something that she must talk to the sw and her atty about - but you just wanted her to know you would be open to it. DYS's atty should be able to discuss with bmom's atty this option and HER atty and cw should be able to advise her that this would be good for her - that way YOU are not the one pushing it. I think that could come back to haunt you, it's possible.

Good luck, it sounds like you know that they will be staying with you and that's the most important thing.

Bumpkin

FYI - Anna, our twins bmom voluntarily relinquished and it did not effect our ability to obtain subsidy's etc...

[L-A-J-C-R-C]

Hi,

Please don't have this conversation with their mom! I cannot imagine the hurt this woman/girl would feel. This is NOT your place, it's the sw'ers and she is wrong to be asking you to have this conversation.

We were hoping to adopt kids we fostered and the way we felt was that we WANTED the entire process to play out to however it ended! We never wanted to feel like we didn't do everything in our power to get these kids home to their families. Now, 2 years later, we are in the process of adopting our first 2 placements. We can go to their finalization knowing that we did everything we could to help towards reunification. It was "known" that they wouldn't get to go home the day they were placed with us, there was too much family history involved for that to ever happen but, as a mom, I was able to "put myself in their mom's shoes" and I would have wanted to be treated respectfully if I were on her side of the issues.

My dh actually made a similar comment as yours about if they drag things out, etc. etc. We are now in a semi-open adoption with their birth family and it is working our well.

I understand VERY WELL the desire to be done with this, I really, REALLY do! I have felt that way many, many times over the last 2 years. But I also want to be able to look these kids in the eye as they grow up and be able to explain that we did all we could.

Please don't threaten her by loss of contact if it's really in your hearts to allow it.

Best of luck.

Michelle

[HappyMomAnna]

Originally Posted by bumpkin

FYI - Anna, our twins bmom voluntarily relinquished and it did not effect our ability to obtain subsidy's etc...

Great to know I will file this in my bank of knowledge for the future.....

[yanknrebel]

Thank you ALL for your input. This is one of the great things about forums.

I really like this biomom. I do try to put myself in her shoes. I know how devestating it is going to be when she is finally told NO. She has already been told that the CCP states she cannot raise her children by herself, therefore she will probably NOT be getting them back.

I just feel like when she is asking me IF she doesn't get her twins back, can she still call and check on them" as almost a plea to tell her"It's OK, if you let them go. You'll still be a part of their lives". She tells everyone I am her friend. While I don't exactly see her as a friend, I do feel really very sorry for her. SHe has had a horrific life, with past sexual abuse to losing both her parents to never having a home and never having been adopted or having a family. Sometimes I feel as if I should help her find a place to live. To help her pay her rent. However when she was given a place to live, all she ever did was lay on the couch and watch tv or sleep all day. These are her own words to the foster care review board. I do genealogy as a hobby(or at least did before I had three small children in the home, lol). I feel it is very important to know where your bloodline is, regardless of what you find out. It helps to make you the person you are, not of who you may become. My husband is an adoptee. We found his bps a year or so after we married. I was just plain nosey about it, but he had always wanted to but was afraid of hurting his adoptive parents. It answered lots of questions for my husband and has made him very thankful for the life he was given by both sets of parents. He wanted to know why he was given up for adoption, as I am sure most adoptees want to know. The bps were very young and were 1st cousins. SO we now understand. It was a positive experience.

I am telling everyone this because while I am NOT sure I want the biomom of the twins to be a regualr part of their life, especially as they get older and can see her handicap, I want her to see them in their early life so that she will KNOW they are being taken care of and can move on with her life. I am hoping that after a while , she will be happy with occasional pictures of the twins and updates on their lives. Goodness knows, she moves around so much, I doubt that that will even be possible.

During the foster care review the baord asked me if my husband and I were willing to adopt the twins IF they becamse available? I answered with a resounding "YES". SO she knows we want to adopt them, if she was listening.

Just as in the case of our daughter Kayla, I felt so guilty talking to her bf about an open adoption. He is the one that has always told me that if he got her back that he wanted us to remain as a part of her life. We agreed and told him the same thing. The DCS lawyer told us that the courts did NOT recognize OAs and that IF we decided to do something like that, that it would NOT be enforcable by the bf. We have , however kept up our part of th e bargain because I gave my word. He has only called twice since her adoption in Dec. He even sent her $60.00 cash for her birthday. I know he loves his daughter as does the twins biomom. I do not want the twins to see their biomom in a few years and figure out that she is "slow" or limited in her abilities and think they have to be limited as well. I, of course pray they wil have at least average IQs for their sakes, but if they don't that's ok too. I just don't want them to THINK they will not be able to be any smarter or are limited because they have met their biomom and know she has limits.

I will allow the courts to run their course. If the biomom asks me again, "Will you allow me to call and check up on them if they stay with you", I will say Yes, as I have been. I don't think she has any concept of there being a time limit here. SHe kind of thinks as if this will just go on and on and on and they will be with me indefinitely and they will let her keep going to counseling and moving from place to place and there is no end to this cycle. The twins will always be with me but she will always be able to call cw and demand visitation. This is how limited her thinking is.

[riley6]

My kids' bmoms are limited as well as having some mental health issues. My younger kids really don't see her limitations, they just see her as their bmom. My older kids see their mom's limitations, but it's not something that interfers with their relationship. It's just accepted by them as she is who she is.

An "interesting" story: At our last visit with my younger kids and their bmom, bmom gave them each a little golden book. Although I had told bmom in a letter 3 months previous, that our dd (Kindergartener) could read, I don't think she realized that dd COULD read. Dd opened the book and started reading. Dd read the left side page and told bmom to read the right side page (like we do at home). I felt so bad for bmom. She's not a strong reader at all and missed a lot of the words. Dd corrected her and they finished the whole book. I know that dd is only 6, but she hasn't mentioned that bmom couldn't read the book like mommy does, only that bmom GAVE her that book. It's a fond memory for dd.

As long as bmom isn't undermining your authority as MOM, she and the kids will develop their own way of relating. It may not be mom/child. It may just be an important person they visit every so often.

[monroeman]

My wife and I had a similar chat with our son's birthmom, agreeing to a semi-open adoption if she would relinquish her rights. In retrospect it was arrogant on our part to do so, and it has "backfired" in a way. We thought that the TPR case against her was clear-cut and we were giving her the chance to be spared the trial, but we had a few things to learn about the Utah legal system. It ended up being a very close call for the judge to make. Although our birthmom doesn't have a diminished mental capacity, she was emotionally immature, and I think we caused some additional anguish for her in trying to make this decision. She obviously did not relinquish, but did have her rights terminated. We agreed to the semi-open adoption anyway because we felt it was best for our son.

We have maintained a relationship with her in that letters and presents have been exchanged every Christmas and at our son's birthday. This was supposed to end when he turned a certain age. The backfiring bit is that because of our misguided attempt at deal-making, the boundaries are a bit hazy and the birthmom is pushing at the boundaries that were set and trying for more. While we won't make any changes, I don't begrudge her these efforts - I can empathize with her feelings. It must be difficult.

I hope this has been helpful. Mostly to say that I think you will find the boundaries easier to set and maintain if you don't try to make a relinquishment deal. It didn't work for us. If I read you last post right it sounds like you aren't going to have this discussion with the birthmom, but I thought I'd weigh in anyway in the event that it might be helpful.

[yanknrebel]

JUst a quick note regarding our visit today. I never brought up anything to the biomom. However, she asked me" I know I keep asking this, but if you get to adopt my twins, how will we do visitation?" SHe wanted to know how did our daughter's bf do visitation. I told her that he is free to call and has in the past. That he has been told when he decided to come to TN from TX , he has to call us and we will allow him to see her in a public place supervised by us. However, he has not yet chosen to do that. The same would be the same with her.

As for the last baby that she had that she gave to her stepbrother, she has NOW decided to change her mind. SHe now wants that baby back. SHe has signed the temporary custody order, but they are having to wait for a DNA test for paternity before the adoption can be doen. NOw the biomom is saying that she is NOT going to sign those papers. SHe wants her baby back as well as her twins. She told me the only reason she was going to give up her last baby was because she thought she was going to jail. Since she's not, she has changed her mind. SHe is using these babies . I am just glad that our twins are in DCS custody and I don't have to play with her every whim. I just hope that she signs those papers . SHe doesn't need this new baby either. If she doesn't sign them. It will be just a matter of time before DCS steps in and takes that one.

[mommyn]

Your story sounds so much like mine! I have two f/d's that I will be adopting hopefully this year. It has been 4 1/2 years since they were placed with me they are now 4 1/2 and 6 1/2.

Even though the goal was reunification for the girls in the beginning DSS always knew it would probably go to adoption because of the b/m's past history of loosing 3 other children and she is border line mentally retarded, her age is about 13 or 14.

When we approached the twelve month mark and TPR filing was three months away, the CW and I sat with the b/m about surrendering her parental rights. She and I got along and we did speak of an open adoption arrangement BUT I always made it clear to her that I could be open as long as I felt it was in the best interest of the girls. The b/m was also pregnant for #6 and was weeks away from giving birth, that was one of her issues she wanted reasurance she would not lose the new baby. (At that time the plan was for him to come to me from the hospital but she didn't know, nor did that happen.) She met an older man a week later and he moved her into his home and the judge let her keep the new baby because her living arrangements were satisfactory. The new boyfriend turned her against everyone that was helping her. He also made her fight not only for my girls but to seek custody of the older three living with relatives.

Therefore any chance of her surrendering was gone. When we went to court for TPR the judge put the offer to her to surrender and she will get an open adoption, the judge even had my attorney come out to me and give me the arrangements ( 3 times per year at a public place etc.) My attorney informed me that once the adoption was finalized and if the visitation didn't work out then I could end them and I wouldn't have been violating any judical orders. The b/m refused and the judge then said the adoption will no longer be open and no visitation allowed.

Anyway, the judge did TPR and both bios appealed, b/d's was heard and upheld we are waiting for b/m's to be heard.

DSS doesn't always like surrenders, yes it is easier but if the b/m ever has any other children that come into care (the 3 yo came into care this week!) then the TPR process is quicker with a surrender it would not be quicker.

Even though it has been 4 1/2 long years and we still are not finalized, I am okay with this because once we get through the appeals there is nothing more for the bio's to do, no other legal recourse and the way some of these adoptions are being overturned lately is very scary so knowing we went to the highest court in the State makes me feel greatly relieved.

If you ever decide that the visit's with the b/d aren't going well and he isn't acknowledging you as the Mom you can stop the visitation at any time. The child is now your legal child and you need to do what is in her best interest.

Good luck.

[LeslieP9]

<<<<<<If you ever decide that the visit's with the b/d aren't going well and he isn't acknowledging you as the Mom you can stop the visitation at any time. The child is now your legal child and you need to do what is in her best interest.>>>>

This is true only if you are in a state where such agreements are not legally enforceable. If you are in a state where they are enforceable, then you can still stop visitation, but the birthparents will have the right to challenge you in court to enforce the agreement. If the judge thinks its in the best interest, then the agreement can be changed.

So make sure you know the law before you assume you can ingore them.

On another note, my older son's mother also has diminished mental capacity. He is developing his own relationship with her and I am sure the time will come when he realizes that she maybe isn't as smart as others. Hopefully, what will show through and what he will hold onto is how much she loves and cares for him.

[scarlet52698]

I'm just curious, but what happens to women like this? How does she live with the mental capacity of a 12 year old? Is she on state assistance? Are their social services available to help her as far as counseling?

It definately sounds to me like she isn't prepared to parent but gosh my heart goes out to her. I wish you luck in your process, being a twin mommy has been the greatest blessing in my life.

[yanknrebel]

Yes, she lives on governement assistance. SHe moves from home to home. SHe had a place the state helped her with but she and her boyfriend stole materials from the landlord while landlord was trying to make improvements. Needless she was kicked out. SHe has lived with one person then another. SHe gets a disability check or social security for $500+ a month. According to the stepmom of the biomom, the biomom wasn't feeding our twin fd because the biomom got more money for baby IF she was still small and underweight.

SHe is provided all kinds of services. SHe has had parenting clsses, and services from the local abuse center as well as counseling at least three times. SHe goes and then get pregnant and quits going. Or she moves around and then the cw at the abuse center can't find her. SO they drop the case and close her file. SHe has had her file closed twice before with the local abuse center because she keeps disappearing. They are providing services and another place is providing counseling to her right now. SHe lived with her stepbrother and his wife (who she gave her last baby too) and when asked what she did all day by foster care review board, she stated the truth. SHe watches tv all day or sleeps all day. This IS what she does all day. WHen she gets her next check next month, she plans on buying ANOTHER car. She bought one a few months ago, but the engine blew up or something. Now she is going to buy another one. I feel sorry for her too. HOwever, while all these peopel try to help her, she does not try to help herself. The state WAS going to help her get another place. However, she got into some trouble with shoplifting and the state backed out. I'm sure the state will once again find her a home and pay her fees to get into it. SHe goes to the local abuse center (that has been helping her) to get gas money for her car. They GIVE it to her!!! WHY? The exec direct of this abuse center is a very dear frieind of mine. All of those that work there have such a history with this biomom and she is truly likeable, but they do things over and aboard for this biomom. I even like her. I don't think she did what she did to these twins out of malice. However, I do NOT think they will ever be safe while with her.

As for our adopted daughter's bf, no the state of TN does NOT recognize open adoptions. We were told by the DCS lawyer we could agree to anything we wanted to with the bf, but it was NOT legal and we could back out of the agreement at anytime. I am only allowing him to call because I know he and his mother love this child. I gave my word. That is why I am doing it. I will have no problems backing out of the agreement IF he doesn't respect my being mommy or my hubby being daddy and our role as our daughter's parents.