[Aminah]

Originally Posted by hkolln

There are things that cause delays...which are not the bio families faults. Now, if they come out months or years later looking for custody then YES the child should stay where he/she is however every situation is different too.

Before I started this process, I had no idea what it is that I needed to do to get my nephew out of foster care. Sometimes delays occur in families b/c you're not given a handbook that says, do "A, B, and C" if a child from your family is taken into foster care. Even though the parents (also your family member) messed up, and their mess-up is not excusable, you hope that these people get their act together. A CW doesn't call your house and suggest you should come forward as a resource in case "your family member" does not fulfill their case plan. I can see how family members would not come forward until someone expressed to them that their family was not going to be returned to the bp. This process is all very shocking. That is why it is important that CW's do a relative search and share information. My family and I have become "better" at this process because we have gone through it more than once. What about the families that are going through it for the first time? How do they know to contact the agency within days of a family member entering care to present themselves as a resource? I can see how members of a family may communicate directly to the bp's about what they needed to do to get their family back. It's not always easy to assume that a family member will contact an agency within days or even months to say that I will take a child if the bp's do not get their act together. It's probably unknown to the most of the population that many states require all persons (even relatives) to go through the same process as foster parents to gain approval for placement of a relative that is in custody of the state.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by hkolln

Unfortunately if you are going the ICPC route from another state then it is not possible to speed up the process and move the child immediately. The only reason our daughter was not moved fast was because of ICPC issues and DCF dragging their feet. So you can't fault the bio families if that is the case as far as movement quicker. There are things that cause delays...which are not the bio families faults. Now, if they come out months or years later looking for custody then YES the child should stay where he/she is however every situation is different too.

Here's the problem, Helen. To the child, the bureaucratic problems don't matter. Whether it is DCF's fault or the birth family's fault, the process has still taken a very long time. The child has attached to another family. So moving the child means tremendous loss and psychological damage.

Should the child be the one paying for delays? Are we more concerned with being fair to adults, or doing right by kids.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by dreamangel

IChildren aren't taken from their bio families because they didn't go to bed at 9pm or because they got one to many bars of chocolate!!!!! Horrific things happen to kids and we as foster or foster to adopt families are there to protect the children. If bio parents don't want their kids taken from them, then, quit the ****!

Wait, wait, wait. I think you're confusing an awful lot of issues here!

You're confusing birthparents with birthfamily. It is entirely possible for the worst parent on earth to have a mother or a sister who is terrific. None of the discussion on this thread has been about sending kids back to birthparents. We're talking about sending them to other relatives.

I think it's important to have some compassion for birthparents, btw. Some people get into this mess because they are poor, because they never had good parenting, or because they are struggling with other issues in their lives. There but for the grace of God go us.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by Aminah

A CW doesn't call your house and suggest you should come forward as a resource in case "your family member" does not fulfill their case plan. I can see how family members would not come forward until someone expressed to them that their family was not going to be returned to the bp. This process is all very shocking. That is why it is important that CW's do a relative search and share information.

I don't know about where you are, but in my county, the birthparents are asked to give a list of relatives on the very same day that the child is taken into care. The law requires that the judge ask them for such a list again at the shelter hearing, which happens within 72 hours.

Some of the problem is surely bureaucratic. But I think a lot of it is also the relatives who keep hoping that the bparents pull it together. Meanwhile, the kid is not on ice.....

[dreamangel]

I did misunderstand a post I had read about birth families having rights. I had read so much last night i made a mistake. Absoutely birthfamilies have rights, I will never argue that. My nephew was given up for adoption 19yrs ago. My brother was told his X had an abortion, and here it came to pass 1yr later we found out about this little boy. Back then we had no idea about rights, in fact my dads words were (and I remember them to this day) he has a mom and dad now and they are all he knows, let it be.

BTW boulderbabe, I do have compassion for my fd's mom. You have no idea the tears I have cried when I learned some of the stuff I have. My entire thoughts on some bio parents (not all) are, they were never given the chance in life that most of us get. Why was I chosen to have the life i did have and am having. I count everyday as a blessing as should we all. Personally, when we got our fd my thoughts on RU changed and there is nothing in this world I wouldn't do to make sure birthmom is at her best if she was to get this beautiful child back. Unfortunately that is not the case, she won't get her back (which has made me feel very sad about this young mom) but there may be a relative out there and if so then our little one will have nothing but positive and loving feelings towards them, as will I.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by dreamangel

BTW boulderbabe, I do have compassion for my fd's mom. You have no idea the tears I have cried when I learned some of the stuff I have. My entire thoughts on some bio parents (not all) are, they were never given the chance in life that most of us get. Why was I chosen to have the life i did have and am having. I count everyday as a blessing as should we all. Personally, when we got our fd my thoughts on RU changed and there is nothing in this world I wouldn't do to make sure birthmom is at her best if she was to get this beautiful child back. Unfortunately that is not the case, she won't get her back (which has made me feel very sad about this young mom) but there may be a relative out there and if so then our little one will have nothing but positive and loving feelings towards them, as will I.

I'm in the same situation as you are. My son's bmom was horribly, brutally abused by her parents. Then she was moved into foster care and abused again. No wonder she has mental health issues--who wouldn't? I don't think she was able to parent when our son was born, but I surely don't hold her problems against her.

(But if she gives me any more flak about not staying home fulltime with our son, seriously, I'm going to say something!)

[mommy2fiveplus]

I think the biggest issue is the "When" is it okay to move a child and when is it not.

No matter what the reason for a child not being placed with relatives within a short period of time (I would say within 6 mos) then I believe the child should stay with the foster family IF the foster families plan is to adopt. AND I think an OA agreement should be a condition of the adoption IF thier are suitable safe extended family members.

I realize some of the relatives reading this post are going to start hating on me, because ICPC take forever, or the bio family doesn't know the kid is in care, or the extended family doesn't know the ropes of the system, etc. etc, etc.

Frankly I don't care about bio family rights, if the kids have been ripped from one home attached to another family (foster, presumably) they should not be ripped from yet another attachment to be placed with a new family, I think a child's right to an emotionally stable life and the least number of transitions should be paramount. It should trump all other rights. In situations involving older children the time in care should be longer but in the case of older children they are typically asked where they want to stay forever. This may not work for all situations but it would for a great majority.

If people were a little less threatened by each other (foster v relative) a strong and positive OA could be worked out in these situations. There is no need for a child to move from a long-term foster home to a relative he/she knows little of, when that extended family member could continue thier "normal" role (such as aunt/grandparent/cousin) in an OA.

Why do people feel like just because the system is difficult to navigate and extended family get a raw deal, that the foster child should suffer too? Why do extended family have to adopt their relatives in order to "bring them home"? Do they plan on just writing them off as no longer part of their family just because the family they attached to after a year of turmoil has adopted them. That isn't how it works all the time, I can give you tons of examples of people who have adopted through foster care and maintain relationships with safe extended family. Those kids are emotional healthy and have a strong sense of who they are. I would never fight a foster family that was planning to adopt a relative of mine if they had been in care for an extended period of time. I would ask if they would consider an OA. This might very well happen in the near future if my son's 1/2 sister goes to TPR, she will remain in the foster/adopt home she has been in for the last 9mos and we will ask them if we can maintain contact. They have already agreed and have let our son see his baby "sis" multiple times. I would not even consider seeking custody of her, I know she is loved, I know that I will continue to be her "aunt" and I don't think it is nessasary to cause her yet another disruption in her young 3 years on this planet.

RobinKay- it isn't about cloning me, it is about foster families and relative families setting aside their differences and doing what is best for each child, including agreeing on an OA and adding more than just a child to your family, adding a whole group of people that love and cherish that child.

Aminah- you said that your nephew is loved where he is and the foster family has not tried to sabotage RU. he has been in care for a long time at least 1.5 years from your posts, how old is he? If the foster parents were receptive to an OA (they most likely would be if not sabotaging RU) including yourself and other safe family would you allow him to remain where he is and avoid severing yet another attachment in his life? He stands to gain a lot from that situation: no severred attachment, no change in stability, no feelings of being abandoned by foster parents who have cared for him a long time, maintains a connection with his bio family, will always know "where he came from", retains his safe extended bio fam and gains a whole new family through foster-adopt, develops a strong sense of who he is and his place in each family, is loved by twice as many people.

Until people have tried an OA through foster care, they can't know how wonderful it can be for both families and most importantly the child.

It is just my experience, but when fosters adopt kids they seem more willing to maintain that connection to bios, when relatives adopt it is almost like they want to "put the negative in the past" and forget about the foster time so they are not as inclinded to maintain contact with long-term foster parents. I know this is not always true and there are some great examples of relatives that have put forth a lot of effort to maintain that connection on this site (the lady who adopted her niece from Idaho for example) it has just been my experience that relatives don't try as hard, I'm sure others have had the opposite experience.

[shycar]

Relative or not. This is hard. Im a foster mom, I know from the day my fk arrive they are leaving. If by chance it goes to tpr and family can not take them and they are a good fit, then yup I want them. But I know my job. I know I have to say goodbye. At the same time it hurts to see them go. Yet I know that if that was my nephew, neice, cousin--I would fight to have them placed with me.

Ok I agree with time frame and all that, but I see a problem with it also. I will give you an example. I have a 3 yr old cousin in Arizona. Lets say that he enters in foster care. I find out in a week and let the sw know that we would love to take him. We already are foster parent so most of our things our done. But my little cousin would not come to live with me, becouse I live in CO. Becouse my uncle and aunt have right to work a case plan then my cousin has to stay in that state so he can have visits. Time goes by. I keep weekly contact with sw. And 6 months pass by and the parents are doing OK, meaning they do some things, but not everything. More time passes, Im still in contact with sw. Finally about 9 months total passes and the goal is changed to ru/adoption. I let sw know we want him and we have everything ready for him (we have done paperwork and all). But the parents can still work their plan so the Judge orders to wait for tpr before the move. Meanwhile my little cousin's foster parents are falling more and more inlove with him and want to adopt him. I have asked the sw to have contact with the fp so they get to know us, to make it easier to let go, but sw does not allow it. Fp are hoping we change our minds, since he is now bonded with them and he is part of their family. They can not believe that we would just show up at the last minute and want to take him away from them. Finally a year total has passed and tpr occures. Now the child can be moved to our home. The fp are heartbrocken, they might or might not work with us. My cousin yet again has another move. So what is the right thing to do? My cousin knows us, but not well. We love him becouse he is my cousin. My cousin loooves my grandma (his grandma) and we can provide him visits with grandma. We can provide him with many things that the fp can not, like visits with all his other cousins and his sister (21yrs old). We would have loved to have had him sooner in our home, but it could not be possible, not becouse us, but the Judge and parents rights. This is not a true story, but this is what would happen if my little cousin went into care. And believe me I would fight to have him in my home.

Thats why it takes so long, especially out of state. I have seen cases where family step up right away, but child can not move till there is no longer visits with bparents (most of the time till after tpr). I think that if its known from begining then the sw should make sure that there is contact between fp and family. Contact between child and relative, even if its by phone. Make sure that the fp know that there is family interested and let them know why the child can not be moved just yet to relative. I hate when sw will not let us have contact with the family that might get the child. I know that a lot of time im terrified to let my fk go to family (I dont know them), but when I get to know them (I always push the sw to let me meet them) I realize what great people they are and I feel happy that my fk will be happy with them and loved. I also feel that if they step up from the start that paperwork should be started. Sure they child might go back with parents, but if not the relatives are ready to take the child once tpr occures.

What I dont agree with is that family wait a year and then step up. That for a year or more no family steps up to want the child and then bam after a year decide they want them. That drives me up the wall, becouse that means the child will be with the fp longer-while homestudy and all that is done-more time for bonding to occure with fp.

[RobinKay]

Some quick thougts--

Why do we assume that every foster child bonds with the ffamily? Why do we assume that massive amounts of damage will occur if a child is moved to relative's home after "X" amount of time has passed? I agree it can happen, but not always. It sure didn't with our lil guy.

I really think decisions have to be case by case. Good transitions, therapy, and supportive foster parents can help the child make the move to relatives--but everyone has to support this.

The fparents can keep the idea of going to live w/relatives alive for the child. If they chose not to do that, then they are not looking out for the child's best interests. That is the heartache I have, the reason I started this thread.

I also am angry when fparents deliberately "cut off" the child from bfamily when they have a choice about it to strengthen their bonding and make their case stronger in court. How is that putting the child first?

Now, major exception example--A baby is with fparents for zero to three years and aunty shows up. H*** no, baby stays put!

[Mama_K]

Originally Posted by mommy2fiveplus

I think the biggest issue is the "When" is it okay to move a child and when is it not.

No matter what the reason for a child not being placed with relatives within a short period of time (I would say within 6 mos) then I believe the child should stay with the foster family IF the foster families plan is to adopt. AND I think an OA agreement should be a condition of the adoption IF thier are suitable safe extended family members.

I realize some of the relatives reading this post are going to start hating on me, because ICPC take forever, or the bio family doesn't know the kid is in care, or the extended family doesn't know the ropes of the system, etc. etc, etc.

Frankly I don't care about bio family rights, if the kids have been ripped from one home attached to another family (foster, presumably) they should not be ripped from yet another attachment to be placed with a new family, I think a child's right to an emotionally stable life and the least number of transitions should be paramount. It should trump all other rights. In situations involving older children the time in care should be longer but in the case of older children they are typically asked where they want to stay forever. This may not work for all situations but it would for a great majority.

If people were a little less threatened by each other (foster v relative) a strong and positive OA could be worked out in these situations. There is no need for a child to move from a long-term foster home to a relative he/she knows little of, when that extended family member could continue thier "normal" role (such as aunt/grandparent/cousin) in an OA.

Why do people feel like just because the system is difficult to navigate and extended family get a raw deal, that the foster child should suffer too? Why do extended family have to adopt their relatives in order to "bring them home"? Do they plan on just writing them off as no longer part of their family just because the family they attached to after a year of turmoil has adopted them. That isn't how it works all the time, I can give you tons of examples of people who have adopted through foster care and maintain relationships with safe extended family. Those kids are emotional healthy and have a strong sense of who they are. I would never fight a foster family that was planning to adopt a relative of mine if they had been in care for an extended period of time. I would ask if they would consider an OA. This might very well happen in the near future if my son's 1/2 sister goes to TPR, she will remain in the foster/adopt home she has been in for the last 9mos and we will ask them if we can maintain contact. They have already agreed and have let our son see his baby "sis" multiple times. I would not even consider seeking custody of her, I know she is loved, I know that I will continue to be her "aunt" and I don't think it is nessasary to cause her yet another disruption in her young 3 years on this planet.

RobinKay- it isn't about cloning me, it is about foster families and relative families setting aside their differences and doing what is best for each child, including agreeing on an OA and adding more than just a child to your family, adding a whole group of people that love and cherish that child.

Aminah- you said that your nephew is loved where he is and the foster family has not tried to sabotage RU. he has been in care for a long time at least 1.5 years from your posts, how old is he? If the foster parents were receptive to an OA (they most likely would be if not sabotaging RU) including yourself and other safe family would you allow him to remain where he is and avoid severing yet another attachment in his life? He stands to gain a lot from that situation: no severred attachment, no change in stability, no feelings of being abandoned by foster parents who have cared for him a long time, maintains a connection with his bio family, will always know "where he came from", retains his safe extended bio fam and gains a whole new family through foster-adopt, develops a strong sense of who he is and his place in each family, is loved by twice as many people.

Until people have tried an OA through foster care, they can't know how wonderful it can be for both families and most importantly the child.

It is just my experience, but when fosters adopt kids they seem more willing to maintain that connection to bios, when relatives adopt it is almost like they want to "put the negative in the past" and forget about the foster time so they are not as inclinded to maintain contact with long-term foster parents. I know this is not always true and there are some great examples of relatives that have put forth a lot of effort to maintain that connection on this site (the lady who adopted her niece from Idaho for example) it has just been my experience that relatives don't try as hard, I'm sure others have had the opposite experience.

I agree with most your post-- but what don't agree with is if the child is not placed in the 6 month time frame they should stay with fparent. The relative would never have a chance at adopting their relative with how the system works no matter if the relative did step up early. It takes forever to get the child placed with us relatives.

I have also read and seen where a child is placed with a ff and when TPR happens and the child has been with them 6 or more months, the ff says that the fchild doesn't fit in my family and is moved, doesn't this cause any issue's?

What if a ff adopts a relative child and that child asks the relative "why didn't you fight for me, I want to be with you, didn't you want me". I'm going throught this with another relative of mine right now. I felt at the time I was doing the right thing by letting the ff adopt my relative since she was with them for a year, and they loved her. I can't even tell any of you how this feels, I'm crushed.

I strongly feel we relatives & ff need to get along and work together for the best interst of the child, but every situation is different and that not always happens.

[shycar]

RobinKay I do believe children do bond with fp. I have had over 30 in my home and I know that all have bonded with us. You can see by the changes you see. In the smile in thier eyes and the hugs you get. But I do agree with you on fp working with the relative. I totally agree with fp getting the kids used to the idea of them moving with relative. I have done it many times. It makes is smoother for everyone, but especially for the child. I only had one bad experience with moving a child to relative. The relative did not want contact with me and did not want a transition. The girls were with me for 5 months, the baby since birth. My heart ached leaving them screaming in the arms of strangers. For the most part I work hard with relative to make everything smoothly and so far it has been more good ending then bads.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by shycar

I only had one bad experience with moving a child to relative. The relative did not want contact with me and did not want a transition. The girls were with me for 5 months, the baby since birth. My heart ached leaving them screaming in the arms of strangers. For the most part I work hard with relative to make everything smoothly and so far it has been more good ending then bads.

I know they do bond, I completely agree with that. Our lil guy had great affection for his fparents. I encourage him to talk about his good memories.

I am so sorry that your offer to help these children move safely (emotionally) to the relatives was rebuffed. That was so wrong for the children.

I truly just feel that with thoughtful transitions with therapists helping everyone that children can move to a relative from a foster home. I think the long term benefits to return to family members are worth the effort. It may not be the answer for all children, but it should be considered for all children.


Just to share--the fparents that were so adamant about our ds being bonded to them--they were so surprised to hear him come back after that first weekend he spent with us, talking in such positive terms about us and his cousins. He even wrote about his weekend in his journal at school and told his teacher about us. This was after 11 months with these people--he was very ready to move to live with his relatives.

I really appreciate the discussion on this thread and being able to share different points of view.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Mama_K

I agree with most your post-- but what don't agree with is if the child is not placed in the 6 month time frame they should stay with fparent. The relative would never have a chance at adopting their relative with how the system works no matter if the relative did step up early. It takes forever to get the child placed with us relatives.

I have also read and seen where a child is placed with a ff and when TPR happens and the child has been with them 6 or more months, the ff says that the fchild doesn't fit in my family and is moved, doesn't this cause any issue's?

What if a ff adopts a relative child and that child asks the relative "why didn't you fight for me, I want to be with you, didn't you want me". I'm going throught this with another relative of mine right now. I felt at the time I was doing the right thing by letting the ff adopt my relative since she was with them for a year, and they loved her. I can't even tell any of you how this feels, I'm crushed.

I strongly feel we relatives & ff need to get along and work together for the best interst of the child, but every situation is different and that not always happens.

We kept saying that to ourselves--we don't want "K" to ask "why didn't anyone in my family want me?" He had good memories of his family, and loved everyone very very much. He knew they loved him. All that did not go away due to placement with a foster family.

He was an older child when taken into care, about age 5.

I feel very differently about children who go to foster homes as a baby, esp. straight from the hospital. In that case, get it together now or leave the child alone. The ffamily is the only family that child knows.

[mommy2fiveplus]

IF you live in the same state as the child it should not take more than 6 mos to get custody (it took me less than a moonth and I was not yet licensed). Duh! Kids bond to caregivers, maybe not all but most.

RobinKay- I know yours may not have but that was one case and I have seen hundreds of cases between my own family (6years of foster), my parent's family (20+years of foster) and very close friends who also foster, in most of those cases if the child did not have RAD, they bonded, even the teenage boys my mom takes bond.

Like I said, I know ICPC take forever, I know states will not transfer custody until after TPR frankly if the child is under 6 or so, they don't care. What they care about is that everything they have known is coming to a sceeching halt AGAIN. This is what sets up kids to develop RAD in the first place.

shycar- in the situation you described there is no "winner", even in that situation the child should stay with the foster family unless they are old enough to verbalize a different wish.IMHO

Why is it so important that the aunt/uncle/grandparent become the parent if the bios get TPR'd? why can't they remain aunt/uncle/grandparent in an OA, they would probably still get the same amount of contact with the child as they had before, living hundreds of miles away, maybe more because often families who end up with kids in the system have internal tensions/isolation because the bios are making bad choices. Why is it okay for a extended family member to see the child twice a year when they are with bio parents, but that isn't good enough when they are adopted by foster parents?

shycar- inreguards to you comment about a child not fitting with the ffamily after TPR and being moved- I stated the child should stay in the foster family IF they are pre-adopt and desire to adopt the child, if the child is going to moved from one ffamily to another anyhow, then of course they should go to family.

Additionally, as I have been in this awhile, I have rarely seen a foster adoption disrupted (once actually and it was a teen and the family that adopted was cautioned against it because of the other kids in the home), HOWEVER I personally have had 3 foster children that RU'd (one with bios, two with bio extended fam) that were returned to care within 2 years because they were unable to handle behaviors. Funny thing is, the behaviors didn't start until AFTER the kids were removed from our care, where they had been for over a year. A friend also had this same battle 2 years ago when they moved a child from her care at the age of 4, the child had been with her for 9 mos, prior to that the kid was in 7 homes (she went into care at 8 mos), FINALLY parents were TPR'd, and a paternal aunt decided she would adopt, they transition the child over 2 mos, thought everything was going great. 6 mos later paternal aunt got preggo, decided she could not parent this medically fragile child and a new baby, dropped her off at DSS when she couldn't get any other family members to take her.

Sad thing is, my friend wanted to adopt the little girl but when she came back into care, her beds were full and she didn't want to emotional injury one of her current placements by disrupting. She figured one emotional collapsed child was enough. I think that little girl is still in care last I heard, they have been trying to recruit a family for her but no luck.

My point is , that for every ffamily that disrupts their is AT least as many relatives.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by shycar

Yet I know that if that was my nephew, neice, cousin--I would fight to have them placed with me.

Why? In an open adoption, you could still be providing your cousin with visits to grandma and other relatives, plus all the family history, without disrupting all his attachments. Why fight and cause heartache to the child?

I think that if its known from begining then the sw should make sure that there is contact between fp and family. Contact between child and relative, even if its by phone. Make sure that the fp know that there is family interested and let them know why the child can not be moved just yet to relative. I also feel that if they step up from the start that paperwork should be started. Sure they child might go back with parents, but if not the relatives are ready to take the child once tpr occures.

What I dont agree with is that family wait a year and then step up. That for a year or more no family steps up to want the child and then bam after a year decide they want them. That drives me up the wall, becouse that means the child will be with the fp longer-while homestudy and all that is done-more time for bonding to occure with fp.

I completely and totally agree with you. In our county, they're pretty good about this---they try to start relative visits and homestudies right away.