[Mama_K]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

I think that at this point, it's pretty hard to tell what the best thing to do is. You cut off contact for months, which is why he doesn't know them any more. If this were the first week you'd had him, I would really encourage you to keep contact open if at all possible, so that M could experience some continuity and stability of care. Now, after the rupture, it's very difficult to say what to do.

I think it's very easy to overinterpret little things. Them taking him out of your arms? Probably not a big deal, unless it was extremely forceful or something. Them taking pictures of him? Sounds pretty natural to me---I take pictures of my former fdaughters when I see them, too! They're getting so big, and I love to have new photos for the fridge. Heck, their other foster mom and I even email each other copies of the photos so we both have the really cute ones, and their amom swaps copies with us, too.

What did disturb me was the whole "let us adopt him" thing. That sounds pretty inappropriate for a birthday party. It's okay, and even good, to set limits around that kind of talk. I totally understand their grief---a year is a very long time to have a child and then to lose him---but I think you're right that the birthday party wasn't the place for that conversation.

In the end, I think I would still encourage you to have openness and ongoing contact with them, but with very clear boundaries. Someday, when M is trying to make sense of everything that happened to him when he was young, he will be glad to have them available to ask about what happened in his infancy. He'll be grateful to know he was adored and cared for. There won't be a big black hole in his life and nobody to ask about it.

I think it would be a very good thing if you can build a caring, supportive relationship for M with them. They are probably as suspicious of you as you are of them---but maybe, because you both love this child, you can overcome your anger and get together for M's sake.

The fp had him 4 months until Kinship started, not a year- they were told at the beginning when he was placed with them they couldn't adopt him- I understand they fell in love with M, and I told them from the beginning we were all for them being the Aunt & Uncle, until they kept calling every two weeks, we had 3 dr. appts a week for M when he was placed in our care and had no time for just US. They wouldn't stop calling until the SW said something to them. Then they started driving by our house and stopping on the side of the road to see him. (CREEPY)- My house is OUR space-when someone violates our space it makes you wonder is this in the best interest of the child.

[vegaschristina]

This thread has been an interesting read, and I'll most likely post again when I've had time to digest it all, but one thing to keep in mind is this...foster parents aren't the bad guy. Relatives are not the bad guy. IMHO, the "bad guys," for lack of a better term, are the parents who chose to abuse their children and then continue with the behaviors to the point that TPR is necessary.

I am a foster/adoptive mom. I prayed each day for God to allow HIS will for my foster children, whether that be for them to stay with me or to go back to their birth mom. She is pregnant again, with her 5th pregnancy (she had 1 miscarriage, I have the other 3 kids) and once again, I'm praying to God for HIS will for that child. I pray that she will finally become the woman I know she can be. I pray that one day my children will be able to have an open relationship with her, but with her current issues, our adoption will remain semi-open with only letters and pictures.

The reality is, I am infertile, and I am a foster mom. And no matter how badly it would have hurt me, I would have put the smile on my face and shown these children how excited I was for them to go home, if only they had been able to. It hurt me dearly when we went to court for the TPR because I knew that despite being able to keep the children I had come to love as my own, we were tearing apart a family.

Please don't judge all foster parents as bad. We're all different people, just as relatives are.

[Mama_K]

Originally Posted by vegaschristina

This thread has been an interesting read, and I'll most likely post again when I've had time to digest it all, but one thing to keep in mind is this...foster parents aren't the bad guy. Relatives are not the bad guy. IMHO, the "bad guys," for lack of a better term, are the parents who chose to abuse their children and then continue with the behaviors to the point that TPR is necessary.

I am a foster/adoptive mom. I prayed each day for God to allow HIS will for my foster children, whether that be for them to stay with me or to go back to their birth mom. She is pregnant again, with her 5th pregnancy (she had 1 miscarriage, I have the other 3 kids) and once again, I'm praying to God for HIS will for that child. I pray that she will finally become the woman I know she can be. I pray that one day my children will be able to have an open relationship with her, but with her current issues, our adoption will remain semi-open with only letters and pictures.

The reality is, I am infertile, and I am a foster mom. And no matter how badly it would have hurt me, I would have put the smile on my face and shown these children how excited I was for them to go home, if only they had been able to. It hurt me dearly when we went to court for the TPR because I knew that despite being able to keep the children I had come to love as my own, we were tearing apart a family.

Please don't judge all foster parents as bad. We're all different people, just as relatives are.

I don't judge any foster parents- If it weren't for you where would these poor children be. I look highly upon everyone of you- I know the fp that had M for 4 months loved him and looked out for his best interest, and are now grieving his loss. I understand how hard it must be for them, and we had every intent to have them in M's life until they wouldn't respect us or our space.

Thank You for being there for the children.

[hkolln]

Originally Posted by vegaschristina

Please don't judge all foster parents as bad. We're all different people, just as relatives are.

I agree! And I thank all the foster parents that kept the kids safe until they could RU. And I thank those that gave a child a forever home with them too when they had nobody. I think it's awesome!

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by vegaschristina

This thread has been an interesting read, and I'll most likely post again when I've had time to digest it all, but one thing to keep in mind is this...foster parents aren't the bad guy. Relatives are not the bad guy. IMHO, the "bad guys," for lack of a better term, are the parents who chose to abuse their children and then continue with the behaviors to the point that TPR is necessary.

I am a foster/adoptive mom. I prayed each day for God to allow HIS will for my foster children, whether that be for them to stay with me or to go back to their birth mom. She is pregnant again, with her 5th pregnancy (she had 1 miscarriage, I have the other 3 kids) and once again, I'm praying to God for HIS will for that child. I pray that she will finally become the woman I know she can be. I pray that one day my children will be able to have an open relationship with her, but with her current issues, our adoption will remain semi-open with only letters and pictures.

The reality is, I am infertile, and I am a foster mom. And no matter how badly it would have hurt me, I would have put the smile on my face and shown these children how excited I was for them to go home, if only they had been able to. It hurt me dearly when we went to court for the TPR because I knew that despite being able to keep the children I had come to love as my own, we were tearing apart a family.

Please don't judge all foster parents as bad. We're all different people, just as relatives are.

You are so appreciated, my dear. I wish ds had a fmother like you. I know there are many more like you out there, patiently giving the day to day care to children whose families are in crisis. Thank you for having an open heart toward sending the children home when it's safe and secure for them to go. I do pray for the fparents who have broken hearts as a result of their selflessness.

I agree, the "bad guys" are parents who choose drugs and their addictions over their children. Young mothers who are scared and terrified because they cannot parent are kind of a different category--but the children still need a home.

I apologize if any of my posts appeared to "bash" all foster parents. That was never my intention or my message.

There are foster parents who let their desire for a child/children and a family overcome their knowledge that these children do come from a family, and may return someday, somehow. Their desire for a family causes them to do and say things that does not support the social services plan for the child--they try to negatively influence or block the reunification every way they can. I want that practice to stop, and it's like asking the moon not to shine tonight.

I am grateful every time I read a post from a foster parent who says they would support their foster child going home to family. Thank you again.

[Boulderbabe]

I don't know all the details of your particular situation, and I don't know the foster parents your son was placed with, so I won't comment on your story directly if that is okay.

Of course, if any of the people involved aren't safe, contact should be curtailed. But I think that just because a kid shows a stress response, that doesn't necessarily mean that contact is bad. It could be that it's stressful because the loss hurts, because it's another reminder of moving, because it brings up all sorts of stuff that the kid might want to bury. If the foster parents are good people, and they were safe and appropriate with the child, I think working through some of that stuff might be good.

Here's an example, if that helps: I had a foster daughter, "Sally," who came to me after she had lived with another foster family for almost a year. I know these people loved Sally more than life itself---it practically killed my friend "Mary" when she and her husband decided that at their age, it wasn't fair to Sally to adopt her. So she came to me as a fost-adopt placement. And for about a month, any time Mary came near her, Sally would pout or cry or run away---even though I know that she adored Mary! I think she felt abandoned and hurt.

Sally didn't end up staying with me. She was reunified with bmom. And during that entire time, her bmom would drop Sally off at Mary's house almost every weekend. Sally and Mary were really, really close. But then, almost a year later, Sally came back into care when her mom started using again. She went back to Mary's, until eventually she was placed with another friend of ours who had adopted Sally's cousin. So what does Sally do when she moves over to her new adoptive home? She totally disses Mary! Cold shoulder, pouting, crying, the works. She was completely horrible to Mary! Mary called me up sobbing her heart out, she was so hurt. She asked me if she should stop trying to see Sally, even, because she thought that maybe seeing her was hurting her.

I think Sally was hurt by being removed. She missed Mary so much, and felt that Mary had walked out on her, and she was really angry. So should Mary disappear from Sally's life? Should our other friend demand that all contact with Mary be cut? I don't think so. By still being there, Mary is teaching Sally that people you love don't abandon you, and that just because you get angry with somebody, doesn't mean they'll vanish. Those are really important lessons for kids who have been abandoned or removed from their parents. Permanency is so precious to these kids---the lessons they've learned so far is that people you love walk out on you. That's a terrible thing to grow up with, and it can scar somebody for life.

So I guess my point is, if there is anyway to set appropriate boundaries and let the relationship continue, I would encourage it. Say something to the foster family if you think they're making it more difficult on the kid. Have them talk to the child's therapist, even. But I would avoid cutting off contact unless it is absolutely unavoidable.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

I don't know all the details of your particular situation, and I don't know the foster parents your son was placed with, so I won't comment on your story directly if that is okay.

Of course, if any of the people involved aren't safe, contact should be curtailed. But I think that just because a kid shows a stress response, that doesn't necessarily mean that contact is bad. It could be that it's stressful because the loss hurts, because it's another reminder of moving, because it brings up all sorts of stuff that the kid might want to bury. If the foster parents are good people, and they were safe and appropriate with the child, I think working through some of that stuff might be good.

Here's an example, if that helps: I had a foster daughter, "Sally," who came to me after she had lived with another foster family for almost a year. I know these people loved Sally more than life itself---it practically killed my friend "Mary" when she and her husband decided that at their age, it wasn't fair to Sally to adopt her. So she came to me as a fost-adopt placement. And for about a month, any time Mary came near her, Sally would pout or cry or run away---even though I know that she adored Mary! I think she felt abandoned and hurt.

Sally didn't end up staying with me. She was reunified with bmom. And during that entire time, her bmom would drop Sally off at Mary's house almost every weekend. Sally and Mary were really, really close. But then, almost a year later, Sally came back into care when her mom started using again. She went back to Mary's, until eventually she was placed with another friend of ours who had adopted Sally's cousin. So what does Sally do when she moves over to her new adoptive home? She totally disses Mary! Cold shoulder, pouting, crying, the works. She was completely horrible to Mary! Mary called me up sobbing her heart out, she was so hurt. She asked me if she should stop trying to see Sally, even, because she thought that maybe seeing her was hurting her.

I think Sally was hurt by being removed. She missed Mary so much, and felt that Mary had walked out on her, and she was really angry. So should Mary disappear from Sally's life? Should our other friend demand that all contact with Mary be cut? I don't think so. By still being there, Mary is teaching Sally that people you love don't abandon you, and that just because you get angry with somebody, doesn't mean they'll vanish. Those are really important lessons for kids who have been abandoned or removed from their parents. Permanency is so precious to these kids---the lessons they've learned so far is that people you love walk out on you. That's a terrible thing to grow up with, and it can scar somebody for life.

So I guess my point is, if there is anyway to set appropriate boundaries and let the relationship continue, I would encourage it. Say something to the foster family if you think they're making it more difficult on the kid. Have them talk to the child's therapist, even. But I would avoid cutting off contact unless it is absolutely unavoidable.

Hey babe-who are you talking to?

I think you are talking to MamaK-but your message might be for me talking about lil guy scratching his ankles during the phone call.

I appreciate your strong message to keep all support in place for every child if possible. I totally agree with you.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by hkolln

I take offense to these statements. You can't say all birthfamily members are the same, just as we can't say all Ffamilies are the same either in how they deal with the transition. J

In all fairness---I think you're misreading the previous post. She meant that it is easy for foster parents to jump to the wrong conclusion, because our information is so limited.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by RobinKay

The law currently favors children going home to birthfamily when possible. I agree with that law and the research that shows how well children do when raised by birthfamily..

Actually, I'm very sorry to say it, but the research shows that on average, children do WORSE when they are returned to relatives than when they are adopted by foster parents. My guess is that this has more to do with class than with anything else----that foster parents, on average, are more well off than the relatives of kids taken into the system. One thing we know for sure is that the greatest predictor of how well kids do in school and in life afterwards is parents' income and education level. (Sucks, but there you have it). Relatives who don't set good boundaries with the birthparents may also cause kids to have worse outcomes. But the aggregate data show that kids do better when adopted by foster parents.

I'll try and dredge up that study from my files and post the reference for you. Of course, statistical averages can't predict what the right answer is in any individual case, so you're right on the money when you say that the CW and the GAL need to be investigating the situation with a great deal of care!

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by Mama_K

I told them from the beginning we were all for them being the Aunt & Uncle, until they kept calling every two weeks, we had 3 dr. appts a week for M when he was placed in our care and had no time for just US. .

Sorry---I didn't fully grasp all the details of M's journey in care.

They were calling once every two weeks? That doesn't seem excessive to me. In fact, it seems pretty reasonable. A ten minute call once every fourteen days doesn't seem at all out of line.

They shouldn't be driving by your house. But if you cut off contact suddenly, they may be very worried that the kid they love so much isn't safe. Have you thought about dropping them a line saying you saw them pass by, you thought they might be worried, and you wanted to let them know that M is doing great? Give them the benefit of the doubt. They might really be worried, in which case you'll allay their fears. And if they're just being stalkers, you'll have let them know that YOU know what they're up to.

I think we could all do so much better for kids if we could give each other the benefit of the doubt....

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by RobinKay

Hey babe-who are you talking to?

I think you are talking to MamaK-but your message might be for me talking about lil guy scratching his ankles during the phone call.

I appreciate your strong message to keep all support in place for every child if possible. I totally agree with you.

Sorry, Robin---I should use the quote feature! I was responding to your story about Lil Guy's stress. LIke I said, I don't know the right answer for your situation, and I wouldn't presume to tell you. But it's worth considering the idea of letting him work his feelings out rather than just cutting contact. (Unless these people really are unsafe).

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

Sorry, Robin---I should use the quote feature! I was responding to your story about Lil Guy's stress. LIke I said, I don't know the right answer for your situation, and I wouldn't presume to tell you. But it's worth considering the idea of letting him work his feelings out rather than just cutting contact. (Unless these people really are unsafe).

My posts are so long, I think I lose track of what I am trying to say! The nail tearing and scratching was the first weekend we were here, eight days exactly.

We did go through all this with therapy. There was a time when he knew he could call them, we offered to call them. He has always known he could write, I offered to put in a note from him when I wrote at one point. He was/is not interested. I have never considered the fparents as unsafe, they just did not support lil guy in his new life. As you and I have said on this site, the decisions have to be about the children.

What I did not share was--the first week, no issues, happy lil guy going to school, playing outside. First weekend, two phone calls=major meltdown for 45 min, hiding under the bed every morning, complete 180 from happy child to miserable, emotionally fragile child. Therapist in HI and FL both said NO MORE from these people. After 4-5 days, happy outgoing child reappeared and we never saw the unhappy, meltdown child again. Talking about them to him was enough--he did not want contact, it was too stressful and unpleasant. BTW-during this time he was asking to speak with biosister and bmother several times a week, and also bdad on one occasion. These calls were pleasant for him and we observed no behaviors as a result.

When we went to Florida over a year later, and drove around near the community where they lived, he did not even mention them. He brought up the other foster parents, though, and asked to go see them. I won't go into that whole mess-but it wasn't possible. He was not upset, just accepted the explanation that they were busy at work.

He went through a period where everything he shared about the the fparents was a complaint or something negative. I listened to our therapist, and just let him talk it out. Then I would ask him about something fun I know he did with them like swimming in their pool or going fishing. I have worked hard and patiently to make sure his memories of his time in foster care are positive. I think we have gotten to that point. We aren't hearing about any more negative stuff.

He also has his album of pictures. He knows where it is--in fact, I just resorted the pictures as I found some more that didn't make it into the album. He looked at all the pics and we talked little about this time with them. Then it went back on the shelf and that was that.

This isn't the right choice for every child that was in foster care, but it is for our lil guy. He is very happy and secure, and rarely mentions his time in foster care. He talks about bmother sometimes, and bfather. Those episodes are further and further apart also. We are slowly working into a routine of what contact with them will be like. Complicated as we are related!

I appreciate all the time and thought you have spent today replying to my posts. I had a day off work and didn't intend to spend it online, but I feel it has been productive.

[Boulderbabe]

I hope Lil Guy is really thriving. In the end, that's what matters. And I've enjoyed our conversation, too! (Sure beat the heck out of studying verb conjugation in Georgian, which is what I was supposed to be doing....)

[Mama_K]

Thanks for the chat today- It really made me think about all my options-

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Mama_K

Thanks for the chat today- It really made me think about all my options-

It was pretty amazing--I found my point of view broader at the end.

Please keep posting--I'd love to hear more about M, and if your situation with fparents is resolved.