[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by Mama_K

We are adopting our nephew he was in foster care for 4 1/2 months until we realized we could do Kinship care. M was placed with us within a month and the bp rights were TPR's in May. The fp called every two weeks to see him. We had to keep telling them M needed to bond with us, we had every intension of letting them see him, until they continued calling and even driving by our house. (we live 1hr away) We feel now we are being harassed, and it's real creepy to look out your window and see them driving by slowly. We live in the country and we don't have alot of traffic so they're easy to spot. I know they are great fp and really wanted to adopt M, I know they love him and only want the best for him but there behavior speaks volumes to us.

Have you thought about calling them, and offering to build a relationship with them? It's clear they really love M and want to be a part of his life---and that is great. There's actually no evidence that kids bond to a new family better when they are forced to separate totally from a previous family. Instead, there is lots of evidence that having the same people in their lives over a long period of time, even if those people are in different roles, prevents attachment problems and psychological trauma.

You might be doing M a huge favor, if you could find some role for his fparents in his life. And it might help them as well, if they could transition into being "godparents" or "aunt and uncle" instead of "mom and dad" to M. They could accept your role, you could accept their presence in M's life, and M would benefit by not losing any of you.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by RobinKay

We were fortunate to have the time difference and the Pacific Ocean between us and the ffamily. The few phone calls we had and the one letter they sent to ds were enough to let us know it wasn't going to work.

Wow---that is all the contact your son got with the people who had loved and cared for him for over a year? Isn't that awfully hard on him? (It would be very difficult for my son, who is already grieving over not seeing my parents for a year, and we haven't even moved yet!)

[hkolln]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

But I can tell you from my own experience that it is very, very hard to care for a child day in and day out and not to be enormously attached to them; as attached as you would be to a child you gave birth to yourself. Everything about human biology and culture encourages us to feel this way about the kids we care for. So for the foster family, I imagine that losing your (now-) son was like losing their own child---a horrible gut-wrenching experience that I wouldn't wish on anybody. I know I felt that way about my own foster, now adopted, kid. After three months, if somebody had taken him from me, I don't know if I would have survived.

I think we all can agree that the ffamily does become attached, afterall they loved the child as their own child. However unless the child is free for adoption then RU can happen. There is always that possibility. I think the main issue is allowing the kids to move forward without guilt and being positive in the transition, etc...It is possible to stay positive for the childs sake...even though you may be hurting deep inside.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by Aminah

I agree with not having sympathy for foster families that essentially want to steal your family from you......I am not sure how to go about continued contact with the ffamily and possible visitations. I do not know much about their care for children but it appears that they are very good foster parents to all of their children. They have a very good relationship with W. My only concern with continued contact with the ffamily is how they have treated me and my family. I believe my nephew has 1 family and you're either part of that family or not. I don't want him divided.

I'm not sure that "stealing" is a very helpful word here. Children are not objects, and they aren't property. They can't be stolen, because they aren't property, and they can't be stolen from you, because you don't own them. So maybe it's better not to think about "stealing" and who has the rights to possess a child, and think more about the child as a person in a set of relationships.

Can I make a suggestion? Try thinking about it through W's eyes. You may think "he has one family, and that is it." But he's been part of another family, his foster family, for more than two years. How old is he? Two years must be a huge chunk of his life, and to a child, even a few months is like forever. To W, this other family *is* his family. He has attached to them. So losing them suddenly, and having to leave them forever with no ongoing contact, is basically exactly what it would be like to have your mother or father die. It's a huge event with lifelong consequences.

If this family has been good to W, and he loves them, I think you should make an ENORMOUS effort to continue contact. It's not for them. It's not for you. It's for W, who will suffer tremendous harm if he's wrenched out of the family he feels is his and never allowed to see them again. Yah, maybe they're not the nicest to you. I'd bet they think you're not very nice to them, either. But the adults have got to put their differences aside and work together to make the transition okay for W. He's the one who matters.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by hkolln

I think we all can agree that the ffamily does become attached, afterall they loved the child as their own child. However unless the child is free for adoption then RU can happen. There is always that possibility.

Legally, you're right. That doesn't change how anybody feels, though. And in some ways, this is a perspective that focuses on adults' rights and adults' feelings----not on what's best for the child. It's certainly not a perspective that contributes very much to mutual understanding between foster families and biofamilies. And as you know, I've always argued that the adults have GOT to work together to help the child. Mutual compassion and care for one another's feelings can go a long way in making a supportive environment for the child.

We're talking about human relationships and human emotions, not property rights.

I think the main issue is allowing the kids to move forward without guilt and being positive in the transition, etc...It is possible to stay positive for the childs sake...even though you may be hurting deep inside.

I totally agree. Whatever the court rules, it's really important for EVERY member of the child's family, birth or foster, to do whatever it takes to make this easier on the kid. Sometimes, that means sucking it up, smiling, and overlooking the other family's faults in order to build enduring and supportive relationships for the kid.

(And dang, have I put some effort into sucking it up and putting a big juicy smile on my face lately....)

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by hkolln

And when the transition happens remember that the child loves them too...don't divide him up by saying negative things about the ffamily....Let him know that it's ok to love them...the more people he loves or the more people that love him the better. I always tell our niece that (well our daughter now).

I totally and completely agree with you!


(I'm editing all these posts because I got my html codes for the quotations all bolluxed up...)

[Mama_K]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

Have you thought about calling them, and offering to build a relationship with them? It's clear they really love M and want to be a part of his life---and that is great. There's actually no evidence that kids bond to a new family better when they are forced to separate totally from a previous family. Instead, there is lots of evidence that having the same people in their lives over a long period of time, even if those people are in different roles, prevents attachment problems and psychological trauma.

You might be doing M a huge favor, if you could find some role for his fparents in his life. And it might help them as well, if they could transition into being "godparents" or "aunt and uncle" instead of "mom and dad" to M. They could accept your role, you could accept their presence in M's life, and M would benefit by not losing any of you.

I have called and invited them to M's 1st B-day party in June. They came over to M and took him out of my arms, walked away from everyone there and started taking pictures of him, pictures of M with them. I have not a problem with them taking pictures, in fact I've sent them some, it's the point of them coming over and taking him out of my arms. They also told me that we wouldn't be having such a hard time with bd (my brother) if we would just let them adopt him, all this on M's 1st. B-day. I wanted it to be a joyous occasion for M, but he was scared of them and cried the whole time. He doesn't know them anymore, so should I keep trying to keep them involved in his life when doesn't know them? Is this in the best interest of M, or is it for the fp?

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Mama_K

I have called and invited them to M's 1st B-day party in June. They came over to M and took him out of my arms, walked away from everyone there and started taking pictures of him, pictures of M with them. I have not a problem with them taking pictures, in fact I've sent them some, it's the point of them coming over and taking him out of my arms. They also told me that we wouldn't be having such a hard time with bd (my brother) if we would just let them adopt him, all this on M's 1st. B-day. I wanted it to be a joyous occasion for M, but he was scared of them and cried the whole time. He doesn't know them anymore, so should I keep trying to keep them involved in his life when doesn't know them? Is this in the best interest of M, or is it for the fp?

I am going to be blunt here--just cut it off. He is just over one year old, he is happy with you, not having attachment problems, correct? This family is not supportive of this child and his new family. Contact right now is about the fparents, not the child. We are supposed to make decisions based on what is best for the child.

You don't need this, M does not need this. Say goodbye, put some pictures in an album for the questions he may ask someday, and go live your life with your child.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by Mama_K

I have called and invited them to M's 1st B-day party in June. They came over to M and took him out of my arms, walked away from everyone there and started taking pictures of him, pictures of M with them. I have not a problem with them taking pictures, in fact I've sent them some, it's the point of them coming over and taking him out of my arms. They also told me that we wouldn't be having such a hard time with bd (my brother) if we would just let them adopt him, all this on M's 1st. B-day. I wanted it to be a joyous occasion for M, but he was scared of them and cried the whole time. He doesn't know them anymore, so should I keep trying to keep them involved in his life when doesn't know them? Is this in the best interest of M, or is it for the fp?

I think that at this point, it's pretty hard to tell what the best thing to do is. You cut off contact for months, which is why he doesn't know them any more. If this were the first week you'd had him, I would really encourage you to keep contact open if at all possible, so that M could experience some continuity and stability of care. Now, after the rupture, it's very difficult to say what to do.

I think it's very easy to overinterpret little things. Them taking him out of your arms? Probably not a big deal, unless it was extremely forceful or something. Them taking pictures of him? Sounds pretty natural to me---I take pictures of my former fdaughters when I see them, too! They're getting so big, and I love to have new photos for the fridge. Heck, their other foster mom and I even email each other copies of the photos so we both have the really cute ones, and their amom swaps copies with us, too.

What did disturb me was the whole "let us adopt him" thing. That sounds pretty inappropriate for a birthday party. It's okay, and even good, to set limits around that kind of talk. I totally understand their grief---a year is a very long time to have a child and then to lose him---but I think you're right that the birthday party wasn't the place for that conversation.

In the end, I think I would still encourage you to have openness and ongoing contact with them, but with very clear boundaries. Someday, when M is trying to make sense of everything that happened to him when he was young, he will be glad to have them available to ask about what happened in his infancy. He'll be grateful to know he was adored and cared for. There won't be a big black hole in his life and nobody to ask about it.

I think it would be a very good thing if you can build a caring, supportive relationship for M with them. They are probably as suspicious of you as you are of them---but maybe, because you both love this child, you can overcome your anger and get together for M's sake.

[Boulderbabe]

Originally Posted by RobinKay

I am going to be blunt here--just cut it off. He is just over one year old, he is happy with you, not having attachment problems, correct? This family is not supportive of this child and his new family. Contact right now is about the fparents, not the child. We are supposed to make decisions based on what is best for the child.

You don't need this, M does not need this. Say goodbye, put some pictures in an album for the questions he may ask someday, and go live your life with your child.

Robin, if you wonder why foster parents are so afraid of biofamily, this is it. To have the child that we've loved as our own ripped away, and then to have the birth family cut off contact forever over small perceived slights-----well, that's every foster parent's worst nightmare.

I think if we're going to do what is best for kids, we have to stop being so suspicious, stop overinterpreting every little action searching for evidence of a slight, and work harder to build supportive networks around kids. And I mean that for foster families as well as birth families.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

Robin,

This was the first time I'd read your story. Thanks for sharing it.

I think maybe you're misreading the situation a little. You make it seem as if these foster parents were grasping people who were trying to solve their own problems at the expense of your (then-) nephew. But I can tell you from my own experience that it is very, very hard to care for a child day in and day out and not to be enormously attached to them; as attached as you would be to a child you gave birth to yourself. Everything about human biology and culture encourages us to feel this way about the kids we care for. So for the foster family, I imagine that losing your (now-) son was like losing their own child---a horrible gut-wrenching experience that I wouldn't wish on anybody. I know I felt that way about my own foster, now adopted, kid. After three months, if somebody had taken him from me, I don't know if I would have survived.

As for not wanting their telephone given out to the bmom: I think it's to be expected. We foster parents are often told horrible, horrible things about bparents. Many of those horrible things are true, and they aren't balanced out by any other knowledge of the bparents. Nobody tell us, "Bmom is a great musician, makes terrific guacamole, and uses heroin." They just tell us, "She uses heroin." It's very easy to get good and scared of the bfamily---just look at some of the responses on this site in the last week! So they are understandably cautious--they don't know you, and everything they know about the bmom is horrible.

As for visits with other relatives: I don't know what it's like where you are, but in Colorado, I am required to sign a document that says I won't have ANY unapproved contact with bfamily members. That means if DSS doesn't set up the visit, I am prohibited by law from setting up visits. If I had been your son's fmom, there would have been no possible way for me to set up visits with your nephew/son's sister on my own.

I think it's a terrible tragedy that bfamilies and ffamilies are set up as opponents, scrambling for kids as if they were playing capture the flag. It would be so much better for EVERYBODY if DSS helped bfamilies and ffamilies come together for the sake of the child. But DSS sets us up as adversaries, instead. They tell us awful things about each other, keep us from meeting each other early in the case, and forbid us from talking with one another. That, to my mind, is what causes the harm. It's DSS's fault, not either one of the families'.

I want to thank you for your thoughtful responses to my posts. I so appreciate having someone like yourself willing to discuss these issues, both my personal experience and the general state of the foster care system.

Regarding our ds and his relationship with fparents--
We asked him every day when he was first placed with us do you want to call them? He said no--if he was allowed to say it, he would have said h*** no! That is how positive and firm he was with his answer. The first weekend, fmom called and I just handed him the phone--he took it and talked for a while--we did not supervise the call. She called back w/in ten min. to tell me fdad had promised to call the next day. Ds got a strange look on his face, a grin, and asked if "she was crying". He seemed happy about it--it was unnerving to see him and hear him. The next day, no call, no call, so I called them. Handed the phone to ds--this call I monitored. They referred to themselves as mom and dad, and PROMPTED, did not just say to him, PROMPTED him to say I love you. Five times--he tore his toenails off during this call and scratched his ankles until they bled. There was other stuff-teased him over and over about not going to church that day. He was six--how does he have control over church?

Their agency and the socialworker agency both said no more calls when I reported all that. Still, we knew there was history with them. We let the therapist know about our concerns about attachment to these people. He disclosed how he felt--resentment at the treatment he received (won't waste time and space on all that) and that they tried to keep him. His therapist here, very experienced with foster children's issues, said he did not want to be in contact and that forced contact would not be in his best interests. I was stunned, and did not believe her at first.

He told us straight--I never wanted to stay with X and Y. He was angry that they had said otherwise--this conversation happened due to him asking about his GAL and why she was in court the day of the adoption.

I was so stressed out over the whole thing I went to a therapist! She repeated what ds's therapist said--it would not help our ds to have contact with fparents. He was happy and doing very well with us. (He still is--heehee-hard to keep tenses straight writing about the present and the past at the same time!)

Still, we tried. Invited them to send some pics for a life book. 99 pictures arrived and a four page letter consisting of remember this remember that and lots of misinformation-due to them not knowing anything about his bfamily. We weeded out the pictures and kept ones of him and him with the ffamily. The rest were meaningless to him--trips ds could not go on "because you had to go visit your sister". The letter went back with an explanation that ds needed to concentrate on his future per therapist's advice, and not dwell on the past. The letter went back via their agency so the agency would know about it, and our wishes to end contact.

We exchanged Christmas cards and gave them some family portraits we had taken at Christmas. Their comment--"it gave us closure". Hello? At what point does this EVER become about the child? They never ever said we are happy for him that HE is happy and doing well.

The entire time we were trying to do transition visits they told us over and over they couldn't have children and they never wanted to adopt until they got ds. Adoption was never a goal for him, not ever. They just decided they wanted him and then did everything they could to block reunification. Example--the first GAL was very positive about placement with us. She had done her homework and talked often with the therapist. She did not feel the ffamily was the right place for him, but realized it would not be good for him to be moved. She told us all this personally, by the way. The second GAL had been on the case for two months--had visited the ffamily two times. That was it--and her report was the complete opposite of the first GAL. The ffamily saw their opportunity to influence the situation (this GAL was new and inexperienced) to further their personal agenda of beginning a family by adopting this child.

To clarify about the phone number--no one wanted the bmother to have their number, she was very unstable. My objection was that the biosister could have had phone contact--she was a child, also in care. They could have bought one of those cheap phones (disposable?) and let her call her brother. We would have paid for it, for pity's sake! SW told us biosister was allowed unlimited phone contact.

Regarding the sib visits--the social worker and therapist tried to set up visits for the siblings and the fparents to build a relationship, and the fparents participated by showing up and then leaving immediately with lil guy. Therapist and sw tried over and over to get some kind of relationship going between biosister and fparents of lil guy. Fparents could have taken him to the Ice Palace where she worked and that would not have given her any info about where they lived. There was no restriction on contact with sister per social worker. Just the block put there by fparents. Sister was just 15 when she was taken into care, BTW. She was the primary caregiver for ds--that bond was not acknowledged or respected by any adult in this situation until ds was placed with us.

I acknowledge that my experience is not every relative's experience. I know despite their inappropriate actions they loved this little boy.

I know also that the fact that they loved him does NOT excuse what they did--they are licensed foster parents who knew exactly what they signed up for, they knew exactly what the situation was with our ds.

This same scenario is being repeated all over the United States. Couples seeking to build their families foster children, and hope they are offered a chance to adopt. Some, not all, but some manipulate the situation to their advantage. I think that is very very wrong.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by Boulderbabe

Robin, if you wonder why foster parents are so afraid of biofamily, this is it. To have the child that we've loved as our own ripped away, and then to have the birth family cut off contact forever over small perceived slights-----well, that's every foster parent's worst nightmare.

I think if we're going to do what is best for kids, we have to stop being so suspicious, stop overinterpreting every little action searching for evidence of a slight, and work harder to build supportive networks around kids. And I mean that for foster families as well as birth families.

Boulderbabe, these people are driving past their house like stalkers. That is not caring for a child, that is dangerous. I should have made that point in my post--I don't know how to quote more than one post in my replies.

Talking about "you should let us have him" is alarming to me as well. I don't see what the child has to gain from maintaining any contact.

[MamaS]

Another thing to remember, in defense of foster families, is that their information about relatives is both limited and biased. They have foster children who were removed because of abuse and/or neglect. Who abused/neglected them -- their parents? And where did the parents learn this behavior? Could it be from other members of the family?
As a grandmother who adopted my grandson, I had to defend myself from this sort of attitude. "Well, your daughter uses drugs and is in and out of jail (mostly in)! What makes you think you can raise this little boy and not screw him up too?"
I actually had to 'parade' my older daughter and say -- "See, this one is in college, no arrests, no drugs, holds down a job and isn't pregnant! I can do it right!"
Many foster parents -- and caseworkers -- are suspicious of unknown relatives because they might be 'more of the same" and the kids might just be moved into a different situation of abuse/neglect. If there is a foster family already investigated and approved and ready to take the child it is reasonable that they would be favored! Not fair, maybe, but reasonable!

[hkolln]

Originally Posted by MamaS

Another thing to remember, in defense of foster families, is that their information about relatives is both limited and biased. They have foster children who were removed because of abuse and/or neglect. Who abused/neglected them -- their parents? And where did the parents learn this behavior? Could it be from other members of the family?

I take offense to these statements. You can't say all birthfamily members are the same, just as we can't say all Ffamilies are the same either in how they deal with the transition. Just because my SIL (hubby's half sister) abused drugs and allowed my niece to be abused by her very abusive husband doesn't mean my husband nor I am an abuser. We live across the country from her and did not communicate in any whatsoever with her for many many years. Just because you are related to a person that abused a child, that does not make you an abuser. In fact, my husband, after going thru a VERY rough life with a Mom whom did drugs and stole stuff to get money to do drugs, decided at the age of 17 to join the Navy to get away from that type of lifestyle. He never looked back and to this day does not communicate with his mother. So, maybe we are the exception however I know of others that have made the right choices to remove themselves from an abusive parent and not become abusers. Alot has to do with the choices you make in your life...which path are you going down...the right one or the wrong one. And as I always tell our niece (now our daughter) Alexis..."Your Mom made the wrong choices and was unable to protect you. We have come forward to protect you and take care of you. Even though your mom made the wrong choices she still loves you." Since she's 8 and remembers alot of the stuff that went on that helps her realize about choices we make and I can only hope she also makes the right choices too, like my husband did.

[RobinKay]

Originally Posted by MamaS

Another thing to remember, in defense of foster families, is that their information about relatives is both limited and biased. They have foster children who were removed because of abuse and/or neglect. Who abused/neglected them -- their parents? And where did the parents learn this behavior? Could it be from other members of the family?
As a grandmother who adopted my grandson, I had to defend myself from this sort of attitude. "Well, your daughter uses drugs and is in and out of jail (mostly in)! What makes you think you can raise this little boy and not screw him up too?"
I actually had to 'parade' my older daughter and say -- "See, this one is in college, no arrests, no drugs, holds down a job and isn't pregnant! I can do it right!"
Many foster parents -- and caseworkers -- are suspicious of unknown relatives because they might be 'more of the same" and the kids might just be moved into a different situation of abuse/neglect. If there is a foster family already investigated and approved and ready to take the child it is reasonable that they would be favored! Not fair, maybe, but reasonable!

I appreciate what you are saying. We were presented in court as the bfather's PARENTS! That is how lousy the GAL was--did not even know who was involved in the case. We were paternal aunt and uncle, BTW.

It is the job of the sw, GAL and others to FIND OUT this information. And, bluntly, it is none of the foster family's business. They are supposed to take care of the child, not make the permanancy plans. I realize they have valuable input on the child's needs, but fparents are not responsible for finding out about the bfamily or making judgements about them.

No, I do not agree the foster family should be "favored" because they have already been investigated. I do not agree that is reasonable. The ffamily volunteered for the investigation, and to be FOSTER families. Should everyone go get a homestudy done just in case a relative is taken into care?

The system needs to be fixed-it moves too slowly to move children back home (when it is safe to do so). The law currently favors children going home to birthfamily when possible. I agree with that law and the research that shows how well children do when raised by birthfamily.

However, I do know that children who are with a loving foster home and no relatives come forward within a reasonable amount of time should stay where they are loved and feel secure. I love to hear the stories when that happens for children--I mean where fparents love them so much they become a forever family!

There is a lot of disagreement on this site about what a reasonable amount of time is--and I reply to that it has to be case by case. It's not a good answer, but it's the best one we have for now.