[sfbaymom2000]

Hi all,

In the past, we have dealt with a lot of control issues with M. Some related issues have been extreme defiance and excessive complaining /whining. And there are others. However, the extreme tantrums or 'rage's she is having now are kind of new. Much more extreme than in the past - complete with kicking the walls, throwing things, grunting, screaming, pounding her fists against her legs.

These episode virtually always start because of some extremely minor thing, like her not getting exactly what she wanted on something, or I remind her that she is whining/complaining.

Last night it was after she said, "you didn't buy me PJ's". Well, we had gone shopping earlier and I bought her a bunch or beautiful new clothes that she picked out. So I said softly, "Can you maybe be happy about all nice clothes you got?" She flew into a rage, that lasted about forty minutes. I told her several times, "all you need to do is calm down". Sometimes she thinks she is in trouble. SHe usually storms into her room and rages in there, acting like sh'e not allowed to come out. She also gets very clinging and gets a terrified look if I walk away from her (probably several issues going on there).

When I ignore the tantrum, she seems to get more frustrated. When she has kicked the walls, I have gone in taken away toys, which of course aggravates her more. I know what our therapist will say...that this is a sign of anxiety or needing more control in her life. And I will try to give her a bit more control. I can't reach the therapist today, but will call tomorrow. Last time we discussed this, she didn't really give me any advice. I think tomorrow she will tell me that when M is raging is when she needs to be comforted. I understand that to a point, but I am also not going to reward her behavior with suggles and hugs.

Okay, I am really rambling on here. She's had a lot going on lately in terms of more traumatic memories surfacing. Also, she was devastated to leave her preschool teachers. To top it off, we have to switch to a new therapist in a few weeks (which she knows), as our current one only sees kids under 6. So these new losses are really tough for a kid who's had so many losses already. M has just started saying (during these fits) that she is bad, that we don't love her, etc.

Sorry to go on so long. I guess I am looking for specific advise for when she is raging. She seems to have so much anger in her lately, that we didn't really see as much before. How should I handle this?

Thanks so much!

[lucyjoy]

I disagree with your therapists idea that raging is about needing more control. In my opinion, I would hold tighter control. I would believe she feels out of control but giving her control she cannot handle makes no sense.

As for comforting, I think sometimes, that's that best appoarch. However, she would then still owe restitution for the fit. She owes hassle time and replacement of fixing of anything broken or damaged. She takes energy out of the family, she needs to put energy back into it(and it's not a problem if she is happy while doing it-it should feel good when she's fixing a problem)

I hold smaller kids while they're raging. Older ones, I find the less I say or do, the shorter and less frequent the raging occurs.

Since you are switching therapists, you might want to be sure you have one familiar with attachment and adoption. Even if this is ODD rather then attachment based, a lot of the parenting strategies and the trauma that needs to be addressed use the same methods.

Hope you find what works for you. Raging children are not fun to be around.

[stevenstwin]

Well, I don't know if this has any relevance, but it struck a chord. I know our kids seem to have some behaviour similiarities (oppositional defiant stuff - and A. has generalized anxiety disorder) even though they are far apart in age - BUT back in April A. went through the same thing! He flew into these unbelievable rages over virtually nothing - one time because I told him to shower before school, and another because I asked him to pick up a piece of garbage he dropped in the car. He'd go absolutely red in the face, screaming at me at point blank range (once or twice it crossed my mind to wonder if he'd hit me...he IS nearly 6' tall and weighs 210 pounds!) In the worst incident he was slapping the wall in the stairway to make a point, and his hand went right through the drywall. Scared the CRAP out of himself!! I nearly every case, as soon as he was done screaming he burst into tears. SOO...in his case it definitely coincided with working through hard stuff. He was REALLY struggling with attachment and divided loyalties at that time, obviously some trauma stuff. Yes, I DO think there is a feeling of lack of control -but too MUCH control is scary!! I give control in the minor things - showering was an issue and triggered the biggest blow up, so I don't "spring' that on him...I started reminding him that he has to shower either before school or before bed - you pick. BUT the main thing that I did was LOTS of comforting. I didn't let the screaming shake me, and he told me later that was important! He was suprised I didn't flinch. He was SO out of control himself that he needed me to be calm and IN control. When he'd start the crying I'd sit beside him, hugging him or stroking his hair, and just keep telling him that I love him and will help him in any way I can. Oh yes, and restitution, for the 'wall' incident. He was very pleased to do that, since I think he was afraid I'd just kick him out. Anyway, after he got it all out of his system over the course of several weeks, there has been no recurrence. He is happier, more settled, and definitely more attached - so I think he just needed to go through all the trauma stuff and get the reassurance that I would support him and no reject him. Sorry this is so long!

[sfbaymom2000]

Thanks. M was diagnosed with General Anxiety Disorder as well as PTSD. Actually, one of the things that complicates this is that with at least two of the rages (both at bedtime) she seemed to be havinfg flashbacks. It was like I could not reach her. She has dissociated in the past, but this is different. There's much more evident fear and anger with the flashbacks, and she makes particular physical motions to protect her body, even if nobody is close to her. At those times I try hard to comfort her but she will not let me touch her for a long time, until she settles down.

Anyway, maybe I should go ahead and comfort her, at least by sitting next to her. I feel like if I rock either in the rocking chair, like I often do, that my encourage throwing tantrums to get extra snuggle time. She is very affectionate with me, and I am with her, but I have noticed her manipulating sitatuations ro get more 'special' time with me when DH and C are home (M is already alone with me much of the day).

Stevenstwin - I think what is so startling is what you described, as well, the explosiveness of the anger at such REALLy minor things. For M, it could be that she can't have a piece of candy, or that I want to do her hair for the party (the rest of the time, she can do it all she wants).

Sorry I have gone on and on and on. You all are always so helpful . Thanks! Keep the advice coming, please!

[Faith65]

We work with an AT who has made many of the suggestions both Lucy and Stevventwin did. Which work very well for us and she's 14 now and came to us just over a year ago. What our theriapist is also having me do is hold B and tell her calmly that I am not Mother, K*& but I am mommy, (your name), Mother (person) is not here I am and I will help you stay safe and your are safe now. What our therapsit says is that their subconsious takes over and they get what he says locked in the past. We have to drive to keep or bring them into the present.

We also do lots of holding when she is raging or crashing. Her poor behaviors tells us she cannot handle more control and that we need to control things for her.

As the other girls stated make sure your new therapist understands AT and adoption behaviors and problems.

Good luck

[mallory4]

Since my oldest dd's most famous rage episode ever--a four hour doozy--started because I peeled her apple the "wrong way", I can empathize. There was a year or so in her preschool years where it seemed these outbursts were a near daily event.

I also resisted "rewarding" bad behavior by giving her cuddles or trying to comfort her when she lost it. I tried everything else--time out, ignoring her, giving her more control over other things even though she already had tons, posting notes to myself all over the house that said things like "She is not out to destroy my life. Take a deep breath" etc.

Anyway, what finally worked was when I went ahead and started cuddling her and holding her when she had an episode. The time it took her to calm down got quicker and quicker the more I did this, and she almost always fell asleep in my arms, even if only for a few moments.
Eventually, I learned to head the rages off at the pass by offering cuddles before she got to that point, and that often worked.

You said that you have noticed her manipulating situations to get more special time with you, and that adds to your fear that comforting her, etc., will lead to more episodes. That is totally understandable, yet it might also be the case that she is manipulating to get something she really needs.

Or, it could be that the manipulating is just her regular way of behaving given her history, and as a completely seperate issue, physical comforting will help her end her rages sooner.

What if the answer to "How can I help end these rages?" is cuddling and rocking AND the answer to the question "Am I being manipulated into rocking and cuddling her?" is yes? In that case you would have to consider what means the most to you, or what will be best for her in the longrun-- whether you want to help with the rages or be unmanipulated (if that is even a word). Her therapist, old or new, may have some suggestion about which would be best for her--I can see that for some kids, it may be more important to learn that people won't always be manipulated into doing what you want, and for other kids, it may be better to overlook the way she is asking for what she needs and to focus on giving it to her.

My dd did not have the challenges yours has to deal with in terms of trauma or PTSD, she had neurological problems because of exposure to a neurotoxin and she really needed physical ways of centering herself and regulating her stimulation level--she really needed the physicality of cuddling and rocking, and so it really did the trick. I think if there was a cuddling and rocking machine, it would have worked almost as well--she wasn't trying to manipulate me emotionally so much as she was doing what her body did when it was shorted out and couldn't get back to normal. The rocking and the pressure of being held, along with comforting words, let her relax and get back to being herself in a way that just couldn't happen if I ignored her or gave her consequences.

My fear that she would "use" my new technique to get out of trouble when she was in trouble, or that it would lead to more bad behavior, did not come to pass--if anything, her mood and behavior both improved.

My dd is 12 now and will come and ask for cuddles about three or four times a week, instead of several times per day. I can often predict when it is going to be, knowing by now what situations are hard for her to handle--and ironically, all the things that make her into a bundle of anxiety in need of cuddles are also things she loves to do and never tries to get out of doing, like going to a party, or watching too much tv. Although I sometimes get frustrated that she doesn't even have the "sense" to avoid the things that wind her up, I am also very aware that she is at an age where if I don't give her cuddles, there will soon be someone else who is more than willing to--so I am glad she can come to me and ask for them flat out.

I hope you find something to help you and your dd. I remember those screaming fits and it was adrenaline city--not a good place to be. Hang in there!

[stevenstwin]

Faith - thank your for mentioning about getting locked in the past! Here is how our counsellor explained it - that trauma memories get stored in the part of the brain that was developing AT THE TIME. So when we think about them later, we re-experience them as if we were the same age as when it happened. So, for instance, my 15 year old fs might be reliving something that happened when he was six, and would be feeling all those fears and overwhelming emotions full-strenght without the ability to see them from a 15 year old perspective with all the the rational "I'm safe now" and "it's not my fault" etc. She said that her main goal with therapy will be to bring those memories to teh "front" of the brain so they can be re-processed and stored appropriately. But until then...I'm occasionally dealing with a very LARGE terrified 6 year old! (Which would also explain his occasional need to sit in my lap - very briefly and always done as if he's just joking around...but come on! He's 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds! ;-)

[sfbaymom2000]

Fortunately, we've had a little break in the rages . I think I've been able to head some of them off by saying, "Let's have a nice day, okay?" and then distracting her. I do think my ignoring her and/or walking away was making them worse. Next time, I will try comforting her.

Here's what I was talking about when I say she has been manipulative. She and I have MANY nights where she wants to talk about traumatic experiences from her past, her fears and worries, and her confusion about why things happened the way they did. We have these conversations over and over, which is fine, because I think she is really trying to re-proccess and integrate the memories. Sometimes it is heartbreaking to see her in a lot of emotional pain, and to think of what she has been through.

These talks do bring us closer together. But I can tell a definite difference between when she genuinely needs to talk and when she just wants to have me to herself. Sometimes she says she wants to 'talk' (which we do in her room or mine), and then she smiles and looks upward, trying to think of something to say. Then she'll tell me some very benign story from the past, and she will try to drag the conversation out when it is really about nothing. She'll even copy a fear that C mentioned (which is distinctly C's worry), to get the same nurtuting response that C got.

I just don't want her to think that now she can get extra snuggle time by throwing monstrous fits! We'll see how it goes .

[V8 Momma]

There seems to be a pattern in everyone's responses- when a child rages and we do not show support/concern/empathy for what they are dealing with, the rages get worse or last longer.
I know when I am a total b*tch during PMS. When I get "like that", it just makes me more upset when my husband leaves the room and acts bothered by me rather than reaching out to hug me or at least say something like, "I'm sorry you're having a rough day." I don't like rejection, and I guess these kids during their rages have trouble not only dealing with the junk that makes them rage, but then to be loaded down with rejection from us on top of it must be hell.

[merrymissy]

Nice thread! Here's a topic I have not seen very much on here. It's another one of those things no one wants to talk about, maybe because everyone will think their child hopeless. So thank goodness for this conversation!

I find this fascinating because our 12 almost 13 year old son has these rages on less frequent occurences now than when he was first adopted. When they come on he gets these dark circles under his eyes, and it almost seems like he is morphing into a different personality. I have always tried to ignore or avoid the rages through all means necessary, with the thought that anything more than that would reinforce all of that negativity. However on his last rage, which again was over something minor, after the ignoring and distracting for an hour didn't work I "gave in" with the cuddling. He really seemed to relax and the whole episode wrapped up in a matter of minutes after that. The RIGHT answer may never be found, but I would rather have him feel secure and loved if that is what cuddling provides.

I should give some more history on our guy so you can get the picture. My significant other and his now ex-wife took the little guy in as a foster child knowing he was most likely going up for adoption. In fact his birth mother was visiting weekly, and they just thought they would essentially be adopting both of them. Shortly there after the birth mom disappeared, no more visits, calls or anything. She did send a letter, but the little guy never knew about it. Fast forward to a couple of years later when he is formally adopted and then a couple more till his noe adoptive mother leaves my significant other. So now the little guy is going back and forth between the two homes with his older adoptive sister, and he is having a hard time bonding with his adoptive mother. Rages were frequent during this time.

About 4 years ago I met my significant other and we have been together ever since. The kids and I hit it off immediately after meeting. They continued to go back and forth between our home and their adoptive mother, one week on onw week off joint custody. In that time the little guy and I were bonding extremely well. Friends and family of my sig, other were raving about how different the kids seemed now. So we continued joint custody until recently. In December his adoptive mother and him had an incident of major proportions. She sent him to our house like she had done many times before following a rage. From that incident onthings were not the dame. He always cried and begged us not to send him back there every other Friday. Those Thursday evenings and Friday morning were tough. Then over Memorial Day weekend he just plain refused to go back to her house. He has been with us ever since, and I must say he has been a joy minus the last couple of rages. Now his adoptive mother is saying she is signing papers to give my sig. other full custody of the little guy. So long story short, you can all see what might be going on within our son. Why is life so crazy for these kids?

[sfbaymom2000]

V8 Momma - excellent point! I have been thinking something similar lately. When I find myself getting annoyed with M and letting it show, I try to think of how it makes me feel if DH acts annoyed with me. What you are saying is so true.

merrymissy - I am so glad this child will have more stability in his life now. Good luck to you!

By the way, I get scared about what rages will be like when M is 12 or 13!

The last few days have gone amazingly well - knock on wood. Have a great day!

[Faith65]

I have to say the rages, anger, pain will lesson and lesson. Hold your children close, tight and say soothing words. They are being reborn! And yes, it's like they get locked into the past where they stopped learning how to process and now are learning again.

After a while they start to put words to those rages, with us helping them teaching them it's ok. We comfort them like we would a new born, then a toddler and all the way up to their now age. The struggles, memories, fears,anger are all so hard for a child at any age to remember and let go of. B is 14 and has been with us for 15 months now! And I tell you all the hard work and engery is paying off. She is really turning into a lovely young women whom I admire and find great strenght in.

I am not her hero but she is MINE!!

Keep up the great work we are making a difference for our children.