[sfbaymom2000]

Hi all,

I posted this in the Special Needs section (you will see why at the end), but wanted to try here also to increase my chance of getting some advice .

Just wondering if anyone might have any thoughts on this. Our 4 year-old, who we've had 7 months, can really be sweet and fun sometimes (I know....we are very lucky). However when she is difficult, she is like a different child. She will be very defiant. For example, if I ask her to move out of big sis' way (or virtually anything else) she will just stare at me. I have tried consequences (if you don't _____ you will lose ______). Sometimes I go through several consequences (losing a bedtime story, losing a toy for a day, etc.) and nothing works. If I tell her to go to her room (I know...it is not recommended, but I get desperate) she flat out says no, or ignores me. If I carry her there she will not remain on the chair or bed, even if I sit with her. Basically, at these times, anything that any of us (DH, me, C) ask or tell her to do/stop doing, she does the opposite.

Which brings me to another thing. She intentionally does things to bother us all the time. In the car she will put her feet on the back of the front seat over and over, despite us asking her not to. She will make a noise with her mouth, like cliking, etc. (at home or in the car) over and over and over. Same story...nothing will make her stop. She also intentionally gets in C's way getting into the car or through doorways (and stops there, blocking C).

Even when I give her 2 ir 3 choices of food or outfits, she will virtually always demand something else. In fact, she is very demanding in general, with most requests starting with "I want..." or "you need to". Of course I make her ask nicely, but it is getting old. Maybe that is just a 4 year-old thing

Unfortunately, we sometimes get so frustrated that we yell at her, which I know is not the right response. I think that just feeds it more. I need to brush up on my Love and Logic and give that another try (it seemed to help, but I have to remember to use it).

Anyway, maybe it is all still part of the adjustment. Her therapist, SW and I agree that she does not have RAD. I guess I am wondering if this sounds at all like ADHD, ODD, or even OCD (the noise making seems to be a compulsion almost).

I appreciate any thoughts you may have. Have a good day!

[AmyAnne]

Have you tried reverse psychology or doing something weird to throw her for a loop. Like "I'm sending you to time out... but I don't want you to stay there. I want you to jump up as soon as I leave. Is that clear??" or in the case of A, he was whining one morning, so I stopped cold and congratulated him. I explained (in a cheery voice) that since he never got what he wanted from us by whining, he must be aware of some high paying job he could get when he was grown up that required whining. I complimented him on thinking of his future. He looked at me, perplexed, and in his normal voice said "okay, Mom. You're being weird" It got him to stop whining at least

[jwdcreations]

It sounds like ODD to me. It seems like she is intentionally doing these things to see if it will get a rise out of you. Maybe the clicking in the car is a coping mechanism she developed to deal with something on previous car rides.

These are just guesses! I'm not an expert at all! Good luck!!

[leaabc123]

Tell or ask her to do the opposite of what you really want. Ie Please put your feet on the back of my seat or Please stay in so and so's way, don't move at all.

[hesabanana]

Repetitive clicking like that may be Tourette's. You may want to obtain an evaluation by a neuropsychologist. Your local psychiatric center should be able to recommend someone.
Good Luck!
Brenda (mental health therapist)

[waiting home]

We had a 12-year-old who did all of those things, especially the power matches with the stare downs, doing the opposite but it had escalated to serious threats when we tried "reverse psychology" or not letting her see this behavior upset us, etc.

It was all about control and previous foster mom and previous pre-adopt mom had the same issues. All the professionals told them it was transitional behavior or normal age appropriate behavior, etc.

We finally got the diagnosis of RAD when everyone else previously failed to get the correct DX and behaviors got worse as she got older.

Please don't discount RAD all together. It's a very serious disorder. You need to consider a couple more opinions before you can say that its definitely not RAD.

Voice of experience here.

[lucyjoy]

What you are describing sounds like RAD to me. RAD kids almost always exhibit ODD behaviors. Not sure how it was ruled out, but would suggest revisiting it. www.radzebra.org www.attachment.org

[momofmykids]

I disagree that you should tell her not to do the things you want her to do. My son's therapist always said that sends the wrong signal. If you put a child in time out as a form of discipline and then tell them not to stay there, that could be terribly confusing (especially at age 4) and children need to learn to do what they're told. With that said, pick your battles. The clothes thing, is it really that much of an issue? I wouldn't let her wear her Sunday dresses to play in, but you can give a little on that.

As for the defiance, it may just be a 4 year old thing. Our 4 year old whom we've had since he was 5 months old is going through that right now. If we tell him to do something, he'll try to do it or bust. Also, if he asks to do something and we say no, he retaliates (he got poop all over the bathroom the other night because we told him he couldn't take a bath right then). He got to clean up his mess and he didn't like it! Instead of sending your daughter to her room, make her stand in the corner. If she refuses to stand there the right way (no moving around, no talking, etc.), then you stand right behind her and hold her there. Remind her that you will move when she decides to do time out "right". The same for the car. If she continually puts her feet on the back of the seat, put an adult in the back seat with her to hold her legs down. Remind her that you'll move when she does it right.

Please don't be so quick to label your child with ADHD, ODD, etc. My bio daughter (as well as my other children, but I know where she's been her whole life and know how her in-utero experience was) goes through spells when she is just flat out defiant. It could be that she's just being a kid, and she's figured out how to irritate you.

[sfbaymom2000]

Thanks for all the input. Maybe the reverse phsycology works for some people, but I don't feel it is right for us. As for RAD, the reason we thought she does not have it is that she is very affectionate and loving with me most of the time (when she is not being defiant and argumentative). However, I think even a lot of her affection and constant "I love you's" are sometimes minipulative (for lack of a better word) and almost for self-protection (te assure we won't send her away). Also, being inappropriately affectionate with strangers has not been a huge issues. It has happened about 6 times in 7 months.

However, I am starting to think RAD is more of a possibilty. Actually, I found checklists of symptoms for ODD and RAD, and she has a little over half the symptoms on each list. We are her sixth family, and if you count living at different places with various bfamily, it has probably about 10. Immediately before she came to us she was in a fost/adopt placement that disrupted. We were told it was because of birth brother's behavior (sexual). However, they were asked to keep M and refused.

I am meeting with her therapist today (alone) to discuss all of this. I agree that I don't want to jump to label her with something...I think there is a bit too much of that these days. However, I need to have a better understanding of what is going on and how to handle it. I know that some of these behaviors are normal for this age, but I think the frequency and intensity of them, and the number of behaviors, is not 'normal'.

Everybody else tells me how lucky we are that she is so sweet and cute...everybody who sees her for an hour here and there, and has not had to deal with her defiance 15 times that day. Even DH is not very supportive. Tried to discuss it with him last night, and I got "she's just like E (our nephew) at that age...did you think it was going to be perfect...she's really improving alot". I asked him to be more supportive, and at the end he said "Why are you doing this?" I started crying and explained "because I don't want to be yelling at her and upset with her all the time." Keep in mind that I have been and still am suffering from post-adoption depression (had severe post partum depression after bio daughter was born) and am taking medication and seeing a therapist. I keep telling DH, I am not just complaining about her. I am trying to understand the problems better and find ways to deal with it better and improve things.

I thought he'd be more understanding after our recent vacation. The changes in location and reoutine really through M into horrible behavior: constant definance, passive aggressive behavior, arguing, doing things to annoy. It was very stressful for both of us, and he got very frustrated, too (I know, the worst thing to do is us to do is show our frustration). I told him that if her behavior on the trip was an 8 (from 1-10), I am still dealing with about a 6 on a daily basis...14 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Any, I've rambled enough. Gotta go. Thanks again, and keep the advice coming please!

[yanknrebel]

I am SO glad we have this forum ladies and gents. LOL I have a three year old who we got through fostercare as a legal risk placement at 2 days of age. SHe was perfectly healthy. SHe is SPOILED ROTTEN since we had been trying for 10 years to have another child (I have 2 bio children who were 15 and 17 when she came to us). SHe was the PERFECT baby. Nevr sick, never collicky, smart as a whip, always doing as mommy asked. I would wake up in the morning and if she wasn't awake yet, I could Not wait for her to wake up. THEN IT HAPPENED!!!!! We got the twins we have now placed with us.. They were 5 months old when placed with us (but were born at 29 weeks, so corrected age was 2 months). They have been here almost a year (aug 2) and while I always try and hold them all at the same time, praise them for all they do and even take special time for KAyla (3 year old) for just she and I and her dad (or just she and I) she is still very jeaolus. I try and rememebr that she is not only sharing me with one other child, but two. However she has become very defiant, when she is sent to time out, she hits the door, kicks the door, screams or lays in the floor. I will have to try that standing behind her . SHe instigates alot fo the trouble that the twins get into. We have a long wooden table in the playroom with wooden chairs. I THOUGHT it would be a good place for playing with Little People , arts and crafts, and such. HA!! The twins have learned that if the chair is standing up, they crawl on top of the table. Kayla repeadedly puts the chair up so that they can climb on it. I place them down on the floor. So I am truly hoping this is just a phase she is going through. I am going to be placing her in dance next month and possibly Mommy's day out 2 days a week. Just so she can get away from the twins and I can get a much needed break. Not to mention the twins need a break as well. The twins play very good together. It's when Kayla is trying to take toys away or interrupt what they are doing, when the sreaming begins.

[tlc4kidz]

Hang in there....sounds like you are following your instincts and trying to do what's best for her by pursuing another opinion on RAD. No one wants to have constant turmoil, it's emotionally draining. I couldn't begin to say if I thought she has RAD....I'm definately no expert and have never lived through it myself, but so many people here have. Take their advice and concern and use that as your support right now.

You have been placed in your daughter's life for a reason. You are her advocate right now. You will do everything you can for her now so that hopefully someday she can live a productive life on her own. She is blessed to have a mom who is struggling so and wants to see her get the childhood she deserves.

((((HUGS))))

[sfbaymom2000]

Hi again,

Well, tonight I am attending a support group for adoptive parents of children with RAD (whether or not M has RAD). I am looking forward to meeting other people going through the same (and likely worse) things. I wish I had gone earlier, when the group stared a few weeks ago.

Anyway, met with M's therapist (and kind of mine, too) for 1 1/2 hours this morning. She agrees the behaviors are sypmtoms of ODD and RAD, but does not really think the M has full-blown RAD (because she is attaching to us) or ODD (because the defiance only happens at home, not school). She had just review our case with her supervisor after our last therapy session. The supervisor questioned why M had not been diagnosed with PTSD. The therapist thought she met some, but not all the criteria for the clinical diagnosis.
The therapis now thinks it is likely that M does have PTSD after everything I told her today, including incidents where M has shrunk back or cringed out of fear thinking (inaccurately, of course) that DH or I was going to hit her. So far her diagnosis was generalized anxiety disorder.

Anyway, I probably should have mentioned also that we just finalized a month ago. The therapis thinks this is a big factor in her behavior. Although the behaviors have been going on all along, it seems to be worse lately, which could be related to the grief of losing her birth family. It really is hard for me to say if it has truly gotten worse or my tolerance for it has diminished out of exhaustion and frustration.

Anyway, I feel a bit better having vented to someone (the therapist) who really understands (besides you guys, of course . Hopefully the support group will help as well, and the therapist advised me to really take better care of myself (breaks, rest, pampering). I love to, but who has the time. Just kidding - I am going to try.