[SpyGirl3000]

Originally Posted by SanInUtah

This may sound unfair, but I think you'll get what I'm saying. If someone relinquishes the care to a child then they also relinquish certain other rights. It might suck but that's reality. This reminds me of my two grandmothers (mom's side) not allowing us to call them "grandma" and yet my dad's mom threw a fit because we felt uncomfortable with the more casual term.

My heart aches for anyone in your position. Still, engineered the circumstances. Think about how your child will feel if he loses the only secure home he's ever known. Think of much distrust that will create between you and him. As much as you might feel manipulated right now I hope you'll have the foresight to see what pulling him away from the only parent's he's known would do to your child, at age 4. Maybe you can find a way to work with the people you once chose and trusted. I hope so!

How fair is it, though, when promises are made BEFORE the adoption in regard to contact with the child? In fact it is made completely clear that unless the couple is willing to allow an open adoption there will BE no adoption. I would have run far away with my child if I could have foreseen what has happened.
No, I don't think it will create distrust in the slightest. I have said it before, and I will say it again: I am totally and completely committed to making the transition as easy as possible for HIM, no matter what that is. I highly doubt I will ever trust them enough to leave him with them unsupervised, but outside of that I will do what it takes.
My son is 2, not 4. He has a brother and sister here, as well as myself. I think he will be glad to be home with his family. I think years down the line he will be GLAD that his mom fought for him.
BTW, there is no "adoption" in my case, the judge dismissed the adoption petition completely. Their unwillingness to allow me visitation with my son is that they realize that in all reality they aren't his parents. My rights are still in tact.
It is very unfortunate that is has taken the amount of time that it has, the wheels of justice are very slow.
I hate to say this, and I'm not making reference to ANY other situation but my own, but I feel like they are glorified kidnappers: my rights are still in tact, I didn't abandon him, I asked for him back immediately and set out at that point to prove that my rights were still in tact (which they refused to believe when I asked for him back), I send him packages almost weekly sometimes, I never abused, abandoned, or neglected him. I have been civil the entire time. But no, I'm not going to back off just because they've had him for quite a while by default. If your child (rights legally in tact) was out there, and someone was keeping him from you, would you just say, "Oh well! He's happy where he is." and go about your business? I doubt anyone would, and neither will I. Even if he stays with them, at the very least he will know in the future that I cared enough to fight for him to know his heritage.
At this point there is far too much water under the bridge to go back to the trust we once had. We've tried, we've negotiated, but it's so bad that any and all communication is through our attorneys, and quite frankly that gets us nowhere.
No, I am not going to sit back and leave my son with people who do not understand the gravity of biology.
And btw, my boyfriend was adopted, lived a life of secrecy and lies, and he fully supports me in my mission. He is in reunion with his Mother (who he calls mom), but the lies were so deep and wide that his amom doesn't even know he sees her, because SHE doesn't want to hear it. Because SHE can't handle the fact that he has a connection with someone who isn't her. Bottom line is, when an adoptee calls his/her mom "mom" or "mother", will you still protest that she is only his/her birthmom or even worse, "incubator"? Tell the child that she gave up her rights when she gave him up and that therefore he shouldn't call his mom "mom"? I'm don't claim to know the heart of every adopted child, but I go with what my heart tells me in MY situation.
I don't feel one bit bad about what I'm doing.

[SanInUtah]

Spygirl...Wow. So you were in an open adoption and they changed the terms of contact even before finalization?

If you placed and asked for him back then that's the risk of adoption for all concerned. it's a sweeping generalization to say it but (barring anything outside of fear for the child) they should have allowed you to have custody of your son. I'm so sorry you've been through that kind of hell.

Whatever went wrong two years ago, you've still got to acknowledge that the child has been in one place for his entire life. Whether or not you can stand these people is one thing but are they good for your son? Have they given him their lives? I truly hope so!

Maybe you'll reach a working compromise. It sounds like the best thing to do for him. He'll only be a kid once and not forever. You'll be his biological mom for the rest of your lives. Sounds like he knows you. This isn't a 'horrible' situation, is it?

What happened? Do you see your son?

[SpyGirl3000]

Originally Posted by SanInUtah

Spygirl...Wow. So you were in an open adoption and they changed the terms of contact even before finalization?

If you placed and asked for him back then that's the risk of adoption for all concerned. it's a sweeping generalization to say it but (barring anything outside of fear for the child) they should have allowed you to have custody of your son. I'm so sorry you've been through that kind of hell.

Whatever went wrong two years ago, you've still got to acknowledge that the child has been in one place for his entire life. Whether or not you can stand these people is one thing but are they good for your son? Have they given him their lives? I truly hope so!

Maybe you'll reach a working compromise. It sounds like the best thing to do for him. He'll only be a kid once and not forever. You'll be his biological mom for the rest of your lives. Sounds like he knows you. This isn't a 'horrible' situation, is it?

What happened? Do you see your son?

I haven't seen my son since he was 5 months old, he turned 2 a few days ago. They won't even give me the dignity of a picture every once in a while. As far as I know their parenting habits are okay, but at this point I know next to nothing.
At this point the end result is totally up to the courts. There is no doubt in my mind that I will at LEAST have visitation with my son when all is said and done. I have no idea what their intentions are as to the future, before they indicated that if they lost custody they wanted a clean break, they would not seek visitation. But who knows what will happen? We'll see.

[SanInUtah]

Originally Posted by SpyGirl3000

I haven't seen my son since he was 5 months old, he turned 2 a few days ago. They won't even give me the dignity of a picture every once in a while. As far as I know their parenting habits are okay, but at this point I know next to nothing.
At this point the end result is totally up to the courts. There is no doubt in my mind that I will at LEAST have visitation with my son when all is said and done. I have no idea what their intentions are as to the future, before they indicated that if they lost custody they wanted a clean break, they would not seek visitation. But who knows what will happen? We'll see.

Was yours an agency facilitated match? Did you terminate your parental rights? At what age did you place? I'm trying to figure out how they've maintained custody for two years.

[SpyGirl3000]

Originally Posted by SanInUtah

Was yours an agency facilitated match? Did you terminate your parental rights? At what age did you place? I'm trying to figure out how they've maintained custody for two years.

No, it was not an agency-fac. match. I was really concerned, because we knew there was a good chance the BF would fight (and he has). I told them if there was any chance that he would end up with BF, and I would have absolutely no say in it, I would not go through with it (and I'll say that this was a VERY tough decision in the first place, there was never a moment I didn't want to parent him, but I was scared, I was a single mom of two already @25). Anyway, the atty. made a LOT of promises and told me a lot of lies. He said that in my state, if the adoption can't be finalized, automatically my rights are upheld (total lie). He said I could sign the relinquishment, and that he would place it in his filing cabinet, the court would never see it and if the adoption failed, he would rip it up and he would be returned to me (total lie-it was filed with the court immediately). I *did* sign with a licensed child placing agency (though they had nothing to do with the match, or anything else), the only alternative to signing in front of the courts. My saving grace was that the woman took my sig with NO other witnesses (required), OR a notary public (required), she also took it to a notary public later and made it *LOOK* like we had all signed in front of the notary, as well as lying about the document and it's implications being read to me in the first place (she never read it to me or explained the legal implications). I had to pay $700 (in addition to the many atty.'s fees I've paid and still owe) for a subpoenaed disposition, where the woman was called in outside of court, and testified as to what I said above, as well as pay for a court recorder to come and document it, then that was submitted to the court. Essentially the judge said that because I am a "very intelligent, well-spoken person, who knew the legal import of the document I was signing", that I should still be held to the terms of the agreement (sort of-he dismissed the petition, and upheld my "rights", though I have no visitation or anything else for that matter). While I can see where some people can say, "Well...........maybe you SHOULD be held to that" why should *I* not be entitled to every protection anyone else is entitled to? Yes, I am smart, but this was also a gut-wrenching decision based MOSTLY on emotion, not on logic, and I *certainly* didn't know the laws of the state at that time, nor were they ever explained to me before I went into this.
I should add here that the BF is in prison, will be deported to Canada when he is done here (to probably face prison time there, as well), and has been diagnosed with MPD (multiple personality disorder) in prison, as well as possibly other mental illnesses, just in case you think I'm a jerk for trying to keep my child from him.
My son was almost 5 months when I let the couple take him, so he has been with them for about 18 months.
A lot of really horrible things were flung out there about me (by the BF's family), and even though I have proven that they weren't true, the couple took the opportunity when some bad things were said to cut ties with me, and the ties remain cut, even though they KNOW that I am not a bad person, and know the things that were said aren't true.
Given the lies and deceit that have come already, I can't fathom allowing to leave my child to be raised in that, when I have a choice.

[tobeafamily]

Originally Posted by SpyGirl3000

No, it was not an agency-fac. match. I was really concerned, because we knew there was a good chance the BF would fight (and he has). I told them if there was any chance that he would end up with BF, and I would have absolutely no say in it, I would not go through with it (and I'll say that this was a VERY tough decision in the first place, there was never a moment I didn't want to parent him, but I was scared, I was a single mom of two already @25). Anyway, the atty. made a LOT of promises and told me a lot of lies. He said that in my state, if the adoption can't be finalized, automatically my rights are upheld (total lie). He said I could sign the relinquishment, and that he would place it in his filing cabinet, the court would never see it and if the adoption failed, he would rip it up and he would be returned to me (total lie-it was filed with the court immediately). I *did* sign with a licensed child placing agency (though they had nothing to do with the match, or anything else), the only alternative to signing in front of the courts. My saving grace was that the woman took my sig with NO other witnesses (required), OR a notary public (required), she also took it to a notary public later and made it *LOOK* like we had all signed in front of the notary, as well as lying about the document and it's implications being read to me in the first place (she never read it to me or explained the legal implications). I had to pay $700 (in addition to the many atty.'s fees I've paid and still owe) for a subpoenaed disposition, where the woman was called in outside of court, and testified as to what I said above, as well as pay for a court recorder to come and document it, then that was submitted to the court. Essentially the judge said that because I am a "very intelligent, well-spoken person, who knew the legal import of the document I was signing", that I should still be held to the terms of the agreement (sort of-he dismissed the petition, and upheld my "rights", though I have no visitation or anything else for that matter). While I can see where some people can say, "Well...........maybe you SHOULD be held to that" why should *I* not be entitled to every protection anyone else is entitled to? Yes, I am smart, but this was also a gut-wrenching decision based MOSTLY on emotion, not on logic, and I *certainly* didn't know the laws of the state at that time, nor were they ever explained to me before I went into this.
I should add here that the BF is in prison, will be deported to Canada when he is done here (to probably face prison time there, as well), and has been diagnosed with MPD (multiple personality disorder) in prison, as well as possibly other mental illnesses, just in case you think I'm a jerk for trying to keep my child from him.
My son was almost 5 months when I let the couple take him, so he has been with them for about 18 months.
A lot of really horrible things were flung out there about me (by the BF's family), and even though I have proven that they weren't true, the couple took the opportunity when some bad things were said to cut ties with me, and the ties remain cut, even though they KNOW that I am not a bad person, and know the things that were said aren't true.
Given the lies and deceit that have come already, I can't fathom allowing to leave my child to be raised in that, when I have a choice.

I think the important distinguishing factor that Spygirl is leaving out of her story is that she was not a woman with an unplanned crisis pregnancy. She was a traditional surrogate:

What The Shoe Feels Like (on the other foot)....

THAT's what is making the events that have been related here so unusual. This child's biologal father paid her to conceive and carry this child, likely conceived through artificial insemination.

Thought that would shed some light on things for others, like myself, who were really working to figure out just why things are happening the way they are.

HTH

Regina

[tobeafamily]

Originally Posted by traceyk

Aren't surrogate mothers paid to carry the babies and I mean more than expenses? Not sure on how that works.

They are. There is a fee, in addition to medical and legal expenses. Often living expenses are also paid, though not in every case.

Regina

[Isabo]

My understanding is that there is even more important information to the story. SpyGirl entered into the surrogacy agreement in good faith and acted in good faith. However, her child was returned to her by the FBI when they arrested the father for being a criminal. It appears that she later relinquished to a couple who then broke their open adoption agreement immediately. The relinquishment was not carried out legally, and in light of the adoptive couple's breaking of the agreement, she immediately sought to get her child back.

[manni28]

So, because the open adoption agreement was not honored she want's her child back? Is that healthy to place ( not parent) and when the vistations aren't honored, get the baby back?

[SpyGirl3000]

Originally Posted by tobeafamily

They are. There is a fee, in addition to medical and legal expenses. Often living expenses are also paid, though not in every case.

Regina

Twice now you've presumed to know what the circumstances were in my case. Just so you know, NO living expenses were paid, NO medical was paid (I used my insurance for the birth and by the time the bills came out for our stay, Anthony was already back in my care-I paid those as well), and I never had attorney representation, other than Arturo's atty. who drafted our "surrogacy contract" knowing full well he had just changed his client's name in a court of law and omitted that info. from me.

[shy_bear]

I love when people fling mud at adoptive parents for breaking the "open adoption contract" But it is ok when the birthmother breaks the contract b/c she is grieving, needs time to heal, or just can't handle the contact . If the contract is written in a state where it is not legally enforcable then nothing was broken other than someone's word; not a contract. Do I agree with making promises and then not living up to it, NO.

As far as the situation being discussed here, my opinion is there are always two sides to a story.

[BrandyHagz]

Sorry folks – there are other forums for this type of exchange – here at Adoption.com, we don’t allow personal attacks, regardless of the situation…I’m closing the two threads devoted to this very unfortunate and extremely unethical topic.