Dlouise,

I was going to respond to bromanchiks also...but you beat me to it!! You also saed it better then I!!

Sorry, Brenda...don't mean to talk in 3rd person. Expectations..unrealistic, or only about what the parents want are always wrong. I do believe that in the case that I was talking about...This women really felt she needed to preform in order to prove that she was worthy of her parents getting married. I am not saying that adoption was the answer for this family....she would probably disagree with me if I did! This is just another of those situations that makes us who we are!

Donna

[redhedded]

You are all very wise women. I was not adopted and do not know what it is like to have that relationship, with the one who gave birth to me, forever altered or severed. However, I feel strongly that my relationship with my parents, as an adult, is based on the unconditional love they showed (and continue to show) me, the support and guidance that they gave me, the way in which they validated my words, thoughts and feelings. The fun, affection, laughs and wonderful shared memories are what continue to bind us together.

The vast majority of people that I have known in my life do not have such a relationship with their parents. They were raised with their birth families. The people that I have known who have struggled most with needing approval, feeling pressured to live up to expectations after sometimes years of criticism, who have felt disconnected and distant from their parents, who have different life philosophies and cannot seem to meet or understand their parent's philosophies were all raised by those who birthed them.

Missy and Kelli: thank you for articulating so well exactly what I feel about the bonding process.

[dl]

Originally posted by redhedded
I feel strongly that my relationship with my parents, as an adult, is based on the unconditional love they showed (and continue to show) me, the support and guidance that they gave me, the way in which they validated my words, thoughts and feelings. The fun, affection, laughs and wonderful shared memories are what continue to bind us together.

This is the type of relationship I had with my aparents as well ~ unfortunately they are both deceased. As bromanchik posted, it "is more a parenting style than a situational result". I personally agree. Whether biological or adoptive, parents will have their own parenting style. How they became parents does not necessarily affect their parenting style. I think how they themselves were parented would have more of an influence.

[HappyMomAnna]

Actually when I met my first husband, an adoptee, when I was 17 I did wish that I had been placed for adoption rather than raised by children! Not that I did not LOVE my parents and I still do--but looking at the life the boy I was getting ready to marry had lived I saw so many things about his life I wish I had in my own!

When he got a copy of his origianl birth certificate and found out his birthmother was the same age my mother was when we were born--It really made me think about how different our lives turned out.....He had parents who could afford to pay for college--and who had stability during his entire life...I had parents who never finished high school and struggled to make ends meet my whole life. He had parents who had expereince in the world and who begged us to not get married--I had parents who believed that with LOVE young kids could do just fine.

I don't believe our divorce was about adoption issues. I do believe that my ex would have been better off had his adoptive parents not expressed such a threatening heartbreak if he wanted to find his birth family. I am BEST FRIENDS with my ex-sister-in-law who was also adopted and she is completely fine with her life...

But, I did and still do often wonder if my life would have been different had my parents placed me and had they gone on to finish high school and have a better start in life....As it sits today I am not only a child who in the old days would have been called many name--I am the reason for a marriage that failed--and I am looking at two older parents who barely have a retirement saved, who owe more money on their homes, and cars and stuff then I can imagine--who have no safety net for their retirements, who willmost likely need to live in my home--or in a home I pay for--because they decided to keep a baby and make it right by getting married.

My ex has a mother who will likely leave nearly a million dollar inheiratance--not that this is the point, but my ex's mother will never need to live with her children--or be a burdon. She is much older then my parents and very comfie in a nice retirement condo with people who cook and clean and with activities and trips around the world.....she is a happy old lady who lived a long life my parents are pushing 60 my dad works like a dog---my mother lives in a mobile home in the middle of no place because that is what she can afford....she remarried a man who has a small retirement and even though I know she isn't very happy with this man--she stays because it is all she has to depend on.....

So yeah--there are a lot of days I wish that I could have been raised by parents who didn't drop out of high school and get married because I was such a surprise.

[Kelli]

dpen and dlouis, you both sound like you had wonderful childhoods, great parents and were secure and happy when you were growing up. This is my ultimate goal for my daughter, as well! I hope I'm safe in assuming that you did not have relationships with your birth families when you were growing up. Had you known them and had been a part of their lives, do you think this would have made a difference to you, in terms of your relationship with your families either positively or negatively? Do you ever remember wishing you could have been with your birthamily, let's say in those tumultous teen years when a lot of parents seem to be public enemy #1 to their kids? I know it's probably very hard to think back to what you "may have felt" and I know that everyone is different and what might have worked for you dlouis, might not have worked for dpen, I guess I'm just trying to hear some opinions from you because you both seem to be very level headed and appreciate the families that you have, with no regrets. Please forgive me if I'm wrong in my assumptions.

Peace and blessings,

Kelli

[dl]

I hope I'm safe in assuming that you did not have relationships with your birth families when you were growing up.
You are correct, mine was a completely closed adoption from the 1950's.

Had you known them and had been a part of their lives, do you think this would have made a difference to you, in terms of your relationship with your families either positively or negatively?

I personally feel that as a child growing up it would have been a negative. The fact that I joined my family through adoption and the fact that I had biological parents was never denied. However, I did not live life as an adoptive child with adoptive parents and bioParents that came to visit. I lived life as a child with parents ~ just like all my friends did. I never felt weird or different. Joining my family through adoption was something that was a fact ~ but it was not something that was focused upon on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

Do you ever remember wishing you could have been with your birthamily, let's say in those tumultuous teen years when a lot of parents seem to be public enemy #1 to their kids?

No, I did not ever have that wish. As a teenager during the 60's there were plenty of tumultuous times, believe me! But as we were simply a family, vs. an adoptive family, it was not anything that ever even occurred to me.

I do remember wondering what bioParents looked like and wondered if I had an older brother as I always wanted an older brother. Other than that I didn't give bioFamily much thought. I was busy being a typical teenager ~ family, school, part-time job, the beach, boys, girlfriends, church, my dog, THE BEATLES, etc. Not necessarily in that order!

Before anyone takes offense, I am NOT making a blanket statement for or against open/semi-open/closed adoption. Kelli asked for my personal experience and that is what I have shared.

Personally, as an adoptee ~ if I were to adopt a child I would choose a semi-open adoption. My child would be raised exactly as I was but as the amother I would exchange pictures and letters through a third party, be it an agency or an attorney. I would save the pictures and letters for the child to read and look at when it became appropriate ~ child asking questions. When the child reached maturity ~ whether that would be 15, 18, or 23 ~ and wanted to have direct contact with bioParents that could then easily happen. Providing of course that bioParents had continued to stay in touch with the third party.

Again, this is just my own personal opinion of what I would do, based on what I have personally experienced.

[Missy M]

Its just occurred to me after reading Kelli's post that I am actually in the unique albiet lonely posistion of having placed a child in a closed adoption and watching her grow up since she was placed with neighbors, that I can answer some of the age old "missing my Moms smell, heartbeat etc." stuff that I do not believe.
As I have often posted I was Tovia's neighbor for the first 14 years of her life, and while I knew this SHE was never told nor did she ever smell my perky boobies and guess. She accepted me simply as her nieghbor, church member, daughter of her Orthodontist and later her Jr. High Schools Principal and nothing more. she and her sister Keri, my oldest, went to play groups together and not once did she cling to Keri's leg and beg to be share her swing as they were deeply bonded by the womb that once housed each of them; as the Primal Wound stuff would suggest. She didn't even know she was adopted until she was 23 and even then she didn't know it was me. The Sundays she sat in the pew behind me I am amazed she didn't respond to the call of my beating heart over the music from the organ and have a sensory flashback and run over and plop down on my lap...
ok..I AM BEING SILLY, but you get my drift...MissyM

[patrisha]

Personally, as an adoptee ~ if I were to adopt a child I would choose a semi-open adoption. My child would be raised exactly as I was but as the amother I would exchange pictures and letters through a third party, be it an agency or an attorney. I would save the pictures and letters for the child to read and look at when it became appropriate ~ child asking questions. When the child reached maturity ~ whether that would be 15, 18, or 23 ~ and wanted to have direct contact with bioParents that could then easily happen. Providing of course that bioParents had continued to stay in touch with the third party.

I'm curious what it is about any contact that bothers you. I feel like I've been in sort of an "open adoption" with my neice and nephews for years. They have always had access to their dad and mom (until she died) but I have always been loved and treated in every important way as their parent. I never felt like a babysitter or any of the other concerns I've heard voiced hear on the forum. Both of their parents were alcoholics and drug abusers, so if anything my situation was even more challenging to keep afloat then most would be.

With life being so uncertain, if you hold back all mutual communication until adulthood, what reason do you tell the child when their birth parent(s) don't live long enough for them to grow up and meet (like my sister-in-law), or if the trusted 3rd party breaks contact without enough notice to set up a PLAN B?


Trish

[HappyMomAnna]

The open and contact issues have always been interesting to me given that our children cannot have contact for safety reasons it has not been a choice we have had to face. We are lucky that the 'STATE' actually sets up a file where birthmom can send pictures and letters and we also can--everything however remains sealed until the children are of legal age.

I remember talking with my ex a lot about this when open adoption started to become common and he also said he would have rather not had contact with his birthmother as a child because he thought it would be confusing....although he also used to wonder if he was being watched or if his birthmother was a cousin or aunt he saw while growing up.

I wonder if it is that in the 50-60-70 there just was no such thing as open adoptions except sometimes within families--so the grown adoptees just cannot even imagine? Or I sometimes also wonder if in 20-years the adoptees who have expereinced fully open adoption will tell us all the reasons they think it didn't work for them? I am thinking the first batches of fully open adoptees should be getting ready to be adults right about now--I think it is going to be interesting to hear what they have to say because it has really never been done this way before....

I don't know how I feel about open adoption because I havn't faced it....there is part of me that would rather just raise my children and I might feel like I am in the same situation as I feel when the bios go visit their dad and come home talking about their step-mother. Usually I could care less about the situation but sometimes that woman says somthing and it ticks me off....

I like hearing from adoptees and how they feel about these issues....I think that it is important for all of us to listen because while some things we decide to do might seem to be the politically correct thing to do--it really is going to depend on what we actually hear from the children who have been raised in an open adoption if we find out that a large number of them 'wish' that had less openess then it might be hard to change but, it would be important to consider it?

[dl]

"I'm curious what it is about any contact that bothers you."

I wouldn't say it "bothers me". As I said in my post, "I am NOT making a blanket statement for or against open/semi-open/closed adoption." Based on my own personal experience, which was very good for me, if I were to adopt, I would raise my child the way I was raised. I felt very much simply part of my family. I did not have to deal with what I perceive as a complication that I also perceive would have had the potential to make me feel different from everyone else I knew. I may be wrong, but based on my own very positive experience, this is how I personally feel.

In my own situation, my bioMother actually died many years ago. I was eleven years old at the time of her death. I did not learn of her early death until last year. I personally do not hold my aparents responsible to have been accountable to have told me anything in regards to this uncertainty of life. Just as my aparents were not responsible for my bioParents decision to relinquish me for adoption, they were also not responsible for any other occurrences in my bioParents lives.

As HappyMomAnna posted, adult adoptees such as myself cannot imagine how it may have been if we had experienced an open adoption. Perhaps it may have been better, perhaps not. All I know is what I lived and experienced and it was very good for me. I truly felt that I was my parents child and we were a family just like every other family I knew. While the fact that I was adopted and did have biological parents was NEVER denied, it was not something that was focused on as if it made me different from any other child ~ or family. There was nothing different or out of the ordinary about my family and I personally felt/feel very comfortable about that. My perception of having an open adoption is that it would have made me feel not a complete part of either family. As I didn't live the life of an adoptive child in an open adoption with adoptive parents and bioparents, perhaps I am not comprehending that it could be done in a way that the child does not feel like half and half instead of whole. I only know that I am very glad I grew up the way I did and if I were to adopt a child, I personally would want my child to have the same security and sense of belonging that I did.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by HappyMomAnna
I don't believe our divorce was about adoption issues.

I didn't mean that. I meant because you were fighting all the time. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Missy M]

Dlouis you posted:
"While the fact that I was adopted and did have biological parents was NEVER denied, it was not something that was focused on as if it made me different from any other child ~ or family. There was nothing different or out of the ordinary about my family and I personally felt/feel very comfortable about that. My perception of having an open adoption is that it would have made me feel not a complete part of either family. As I didn't live the life of an adoptive child in an open adoption with adoptive parents and bioparents, perhaps I am not comprehending that it could be done in a way that the child does not feel like half and half instead of whole. I only know that I am very glad I grew up the way I did and if I were to adopt a child, I personally would want my child to have the same security and sense of belonging that I did."


__________________
: I am posting to say that this is exactly why I never told Tovia or her A-parents who I was. I placed my daughter in a *closed* adoption because its all the world offered, and the fact that the agency IMO violated their trusts along with the terms of our agreement didn't mean I'd have to. I wanted my child to have as normal a life as she could have; that was the reason for her placement, so despite what MY feelings, needs and urges were, despite the fact that its gutwrenching for b-parents who don't know, despite the fact that I could have *opened* it with a nod and a hug at any point, I abided by the closed agreement that I signed her over in. I didn't want her to be half mine half theirs in any way.
I have been severely bashed in pm's and in this forum by b-moms who complained that I simply "didn't care" enough to reach out to her in her early years; thats so far from the truth that I don't usually respond. I didn't want her raised as an "ADOPTED CHILD" I just wanted her to be a child with a happy well-adjusted childhood...without me since from day one, I knew I couldn't do it.
I will admit that I am not against "semi- open adoption" in which information such as medical history, pictures and contact info is available when the child is of age. I am not even disputing the claim of A-parents who say their visits and phone calls work for them and their child(ren). I will just boldly state that had I been presented with this option I am doubtful I would have used it. Of course my situation was closed with benefits; I "knew" my child was alive and well daily. For the parents who are left wondering after agreeing to a fully adoption, I hurt for you, I can understand your pain, but its not something I would have opted for. I wanted to put aside my "need to know" and allow my daughter to become their daughter totally.
Having said that while I disagree with the concept of withholding the fact that my child was adopted from her, I UNDERSTAND what their intent was, and that was to not have her feel different. JMO....MissyM

[patrisha]

Dlouis,

I appreciate your insight. My birth son is a strong proponent of open adoption and open records, so some of his influence may be rubbing off on me. I'm not sure how I feel about fully open adoptions. I know an ongoing relationship would prevent the emotional upheaval a reunion with a total stranger brings.

There is a possibility that some children could feel conflicting loyalties. I think that would depend alot on how both the bio and adoptive families handle the relationship. Maybe a gradual increase in contact over the years as a child grows and matures would be a happy medium.

I agree, it will be very interesting to hear an exchange of pro's and con's between adult adoptees from closed and fully open arrangements.

Trish

Hi Kelli,

Just to answer your question regarding my opinion on how I would feel if my adoption was open...it was closed.I can't even think about me having an apen adoption because it was just not thought about or even fathomable in my day. Because of my upbringing being secure in my family....I never thought about actually seeing my birthfamily they were just an obscure thought or fantasy. I donot mean that as a negative it was just the way it was. I was very open about being adopted. I answered lots of questions from all my friends but I can not imagine having bparents in my life. Honestly...just based on my situation and the attitudes of adoption then...I think having them around may have been confusing to me. Thats why it is so wonderful today for the child that people work on the open adoptions and how much we have evolved!

[Kelli]

Thank you dlouis and dpen for your candor and insight! I'm like you in that outside of this realm, I never think of us as an adoptive family, but just a family, and my prayer is that as my daughter becomes older that she will see us and herself in the same light. I hope our daughter feels the same way about us as you both do about your parents. We have a semi-open agreement and our agreement was for us to send updates for the first two years, and after that, at our discretion. I will continue to send at least yearly updates (unless I hear otherwise from either party) because I believe it is important for all of us to maintain a line of communication for the future, though we have never heard a word from our daughter's bmom. I think it is terribly important for our daughter's bmom to be at peace in knowing that her daughter is well cared for and loved. My opinion is that the pain of "uncertainty and not knowing" is just cruel and unnecessary.

HappyMomAnna & Patrisha, I agree with your last paragraphs. I would also find it interesting to hear personally from the children (as adults) in regards to their feelings on fully open arrangements. Though I am in no way against open relationships if that's what the individual parties decide is best for their children and themselves, I've made it no secret that I disagree with the blanket statement that "open adoptions are best for children" and I do believe that there could have been other factors that came into play as this notion was evolving. For every positive story, I hear a "it's just not working" or a "split loyalty" story. We've just decided to follow our hearts, stay in prayer over our family, and do what WE feel is best for our children.

Peace and blessings,

Kelli