[Missy M]

Originally posted by Momofbs
wingless

It sounds you have convinced yourself you are doing the right thing. But please be prepared for you child to come back to you and tell you otherwise. It is possible they will grow up thinking they were the unwanted one. You picked to keep their siblings, and toss them aside.

Every child deserves to be with their mother. They grew inside of you. It's your heartbeat they seek, your smell, the sound of your voice.

I haven't read of your circumstance and why you're giving up your baby. But as a mother of 2 children of my own, I could never imagine willingly giving my child away.

I do hope things turn out best. I'm a very well adjusted adoptee who carries no pain from the past. But in reading these bulletin boards, that is not the norm. There is a lot of pain in adoption and the feeling of abandonment, and seems even more so when there were previous siblings.

God Bless you and guide you.

I was raised in a loving 2 parent family. We were fortunate enough to have all the money we needed. We had parents who were professionals and our Mom breastfed each of us and stayed home until the youngest child was in school.
Momofbs posted "its your heartbeat, smell, sound of your voice they seek." Since I have no proof otherwise I won't call it outright bull****, but I will say I simply do not remember what I experienced in the womb! The smell I remember longing for was the smell I experienced long after being born, years after birth. I grew to recognize my Moms voice in time but I didn't know it before birth, nor did I know what a *voice* was, hers or otherwise. It was all noise. Its the things you experience after birth that form bonds. Mom fed me with her breast and I grew to love and expect comfort from her and her breast, BUT had she started feeidng me milk from Daddys sock, and it satisfied my hunger I could have learned to love Daddys sock. I didn't know her breast was a good thing, I learned to equate it with food. I didn't bond to her because I remembered her heartbeat, I bonded because she cared for me. I as a nurse worked with preemie's and we'd rotate every other day to prevent the babies from bonding with us. It was not my heartbeat they heard in utero, it wasn't my smell, it was simply me caring for them. The parents visited daily and they showed no more excitement at having mom present than they did at the X-ray tech.
Not everyone agrees with this Primal Wound therory and it bothers me when someone considering adoption is handed this line. I just need to see proof that this exists...not stats, not opinions PROOF. It has been proven that unborn infants hear in the womb, BUT if you've never heard a heartbeat, how do you know its your Moms heartbeat you're missing? The human body makes a lot of noises, you'd be shocked if you heard the rumble of gas passing thru the intestines, IMO the "Mommy's heartbeat" sounds so cushy-nice that its often quoted as whats being missed. Show me one person who can honestly say they knew and deeply missed it after being adopted and let them prove it to me....MissyM

[Kelli]

Originally posted by Missy M
I Its the things you experience after birth that form bonds. Mom fed me with her breast and I grew to love and expect comfort from her and her breast, BUT had she started feeidng me milk from Daddys sock, and it satisfied my hunger I could have learned to love Daddys sock. I didn't know her breast was a good thing, I learned to equate it with food. I didn't bond to her because I remembered her heartbeat, I bonded because she cared for me.

Missy M . . . a gal who is speaking my words!!! I once expressed this exact sentiment (minus the sock ) many moons ago on this forum, and if I remember correctly, I never did come away with a clear understanding to the contrary. I've often felt that the pre-birth bond is more of an emotional feeling on the mother's part (based on the state of the mother at the time and where she is in her life) and not necessarily one that the baby feels. I used the example of a friend of mine who found out she was two months pregnant at two different times in her life. . . one time she was ecstatic talking about her "baby" and the beginning of "this bond." Next time, when she was trying to get into grad school, the "fetus" as she called it, was not as welcome and she chose to terminate. Same two month stage with different emotions and responses.

I know much has been written and said about this subject, but I learned a long time ago that not everything I hear and read from so called experts is gospel. Many people have biases and agendas behind the words they share. Like you, I'm waiting to see it or even hear it from people close to me that I trust. And heck, it just might take my having to hear it from the baby itself before I believe it . . . I'm just that skeptical.

I do feel, however, that this emotional bond is a wonderful, normal and blessed part of the pregnancy experience, and would probably enhance the bonding experience between mother and child after birth. I do not mean to negate or diminish in any way those feelings.

Kelli

[HappyMomAnna]

I was born to my 16 yr old mother and 17 yr old father 6months after they were married. I was a DOLL and my parents were NOT ready to be parents when I was born--but, they did the best they could. My father became a hard working man--my mother got her drivers license when I was 17. My parents divorced when I was 22.

I have always and still to this day wanted ONLY the respect of my parents. I do very much seek their approval and have lived my life avoiding the same mistakes they made. Even in the matter of my deciding to adopt two more children in my 40's I seek my parents approval and support. It is and always has been important for me to make them proud of me and my life in every way.

As a child most of my cousins were adopted. I thought that was more normal then being born to my parents. I often wondered why I was kept especially under the circumstances. I am the oldest child on both sides of my family and have always been under high expectations from eveyone.

I did grow up feeling as if everything I did was an example of my parents efforts. If I messed-up it was a sign of their failures if I did well it was a sign of their awesome skill and ability. This standard has remained with me my entire life. It has been difficult to live up to. And has shaped they way I chose to raise my children with a different set of values. My children have never been made to feel they need to be anything to make me happy--and have always been given the right to be who they are.

As a child born to children I often wished they had been older--or that they would not have gotten married BECAUSE of me. When they divorced I believed they only held their marriage together to prove to the world that I was not a mistake. I grew up with many mixed up feelings about sexuality and marriage. I got married at 18 because I had sex with a boy--and had to in my mind! I started my life with many problems and it did turn out that I married the wrong boy--and stayed married for way too long.

Since I was a young adult I have NEVER lived near my family and it has always been at least a 9-hour dirve to see my family. My mother moved to my town for about 5 years and I found we could not have a relationship in person--but, that we need to talk on the phone everyday. My relationship with my parents is only good on the phone in person there is too much critisim.

In the past several years I have been able to 'stop' needing their approval for every action I take. But, there will always be a part of my life I am not able to share with my parents. As the oldest of the children it has also been my responsibility to be the 'sister-mommy' for my brothers. And even now they come to me often and I have supported them over the years MORE then our parents. Especially, when they dropped the ball when my brothers were teens and divorced leaving them to run the streets and grow up without parental support.

[MkMw]

MissyM - you said "I as a nurse worked with preemie's and we'd rotate every other day to prevent the babies from bonding with us. "

I think this is a really important statement. And I think it's true. My sons' spent 15 days in the hospital - they were healthy, but their Birthmom didn't want to take them home, and we could not legally until that time. They bonded to 2 of the nurses there - and they to them, you should have heard the lecture we got about their personalities when we took them home!

The second night (midnight or 3 a.m. I don't remember which) one of them looked at me with recognition and touched my face - it was as if he was saying "you, again" - until that point SOMEONE had fed them when they were hungry (and from day 6 during the day that was me) but noone had been there for them 24/7. It was a moment that will live in my heart forever.

They were held by their Birthmom, and having read here, I looked for the "magical connection" and didn't see it. That isn't to say it wasn't there - but as you said, it can't be proven.

HappyMomAna you said...."As a child most of my cousins were adopted. I thought that was more normal then being born to my parents."

We were just talking about this - Matt's (my DH) parents have 6 grandchildren, 4 of them joined our family through adoption - we hope to adopt again - which will make 5 of 7. I don't doubt that there will be days when the bio-gkids feel the same way!


This is been a really interesting thread - I've enjoyed reading it.

happymom,

I was just talking to a friend of mine at work and she was in the same situation as you. The oldest of young parents "that had to get married". I think she feels the same as you..she is a high achiever and strives for perfection in her own life. Thats hard ....I stopped trying to be p-erfect long ago. Her mom now has problems...questioning eating disorders, she has trouble relating to her. She can not stand her father as he was a womanizer,got into some white collar legal problems in a small community and the kids paid the price. She feels they never should have married in the first place and on some leval believes that it was because of her.

It just goes to show...We all have issues....adoption alone DOES NOT make someone prone to disorders in life!

[patrisha]

It just goes to show...We all have issues....adoption alone DOES NOT make someone prone to disorders in life!

I had to laugh at that one. There are times when I wonder exactly what I did in my former life that made me deserve some of the "family" I have now!

Trish

[HappyMomAnna]

My first husband (an adoptee) and I were married for 15 years and we often argued over which one of us had the 'biggest' problems about our childhoods---he always belived I suffered far more 'issues' then he had as an adoptee!

Can you imagine fighting over who was the most messed-up?

[Missy M]

Originally posted by HappyMomAnna
My first husband (an adoptee) and I were married for 15 years and we often argued over which one of us had the 'biggest' problems about our childhoods---he always belived I suffered far more 'issues' then he had as an adoptee!

Can you imagine fighting over who was the most messed-up?

Yep, I can...my 2 daughters one kept (Kia) and one placed (Tovia) do it constantly; and no one wins. They are equally f***ed up IMO maybe 'cause they're both mine...MissyM

Missy,

You crack me up!!! You tell it like it is!!! love it!!

[Colorbind love]

You know, I get so sick of this iddylic mentality that biology automatically creates perfect parents and perfect situations for all parents and children. This primal wound theory that the demage of removing a child from its biological mother is the worst fate a child would ever face is complete and utter nonsense.

I often think of some very real situations I have encountered. I know a 15 year old mother who went joy riding in a stolen car at 3am. She placed her newborn infant unrestrained in the passenger seat as she was out driving. When caught, the police took her back to her foster home and checked her for drugs. She bragged incessantly that the stupid cop didn't bother to check the baby for in that baby's diaper was her weed and bong. This same girl had her baby removed from her home (finally) at 18 months for throwing her across a room.

I know a 17 year old mother who was desperate for a man to love her. She married a man she had only known 2 months with a 4 month old baby. She then went partying with friends, leaving the baby in his care for days on end. On one of those occasions, he called her home after an ambulance took her son to the hospital. That child spent several weeks in PICU fighting for his life because he step-father shook him within inches of his life. His mother forgave the stepfather and stayed with him.

I know a 5 year old girl who desperately wanted me to explain why her mommy used to punish her by sticking her hands on the hot stove burners. She wanted to know why mommy had given birth to her 3 crack addicted baby in 5 years and why mommy said she was going back to live with her again. Thanks to a technical error, this child was taken from an adoptive placement and returned to said mother. She has been removed again and one can only hope the state doesn't forget to dot their 'i's and cross their 't's this time for final removal. Certainly, mom inteads to fight tooth and nail for her children (without giving up abusing them and continuing the drug abuse) because they are 'her' children and no one has a 'right' to take them without her say-so.

I know a young woman whose mother was a prostitute. When she was jumped and raped coming home from school at age 14, her mother decided it was then acceptable to make money off her as well. She was forced to drop out of school and her mother forced her to sleep with the customers that she knew were violent, to spare herself from extra beatings.

I could go on and on about the sad stories I know. Its stories like that which burn my bum when I hear people spouting claims that biology is the only way to parent children. BULL. More children in this world would be a thousand times better if their parents realized its not about the parents or the child. Any woman who feels that her child would be better off being raised by other parents is making a sacrifice of extreme proportions. She is not seeking a permenant fix to a temporary situation, and she should not have to fight tooth and nail to have that decision respected. By the same token, any mother who feels in her heart that she is capable of being a good, loving and responsible mother should be empowered and supported to be exactly that. And, any mother on either side of the equation whose only motivation is her own selfish desires, should get lots of counseling to help her focus on the needs of that child and not herself.

Its not a perfect world. Not every option is perfect for every situation. Biology does not magically make you a good parent. Adoption does not scar every adoptee for the rest of their life. We each have to make the best decision for an imperfect situation. What that decision is should be supported as long as the needs of the children are met. Its not about us, the adults. Its about the children. And, not every child does better with their biological parent, not every child ends up better off with adoptive parents.

What is barbaric to me is that anyone persists in seeing one side of the equation as perfect in any manner and cannot accept that there are pros and cons to all sides of the equation of adoption.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by HappyMomAnna

Can you imagine fighting over who was the most messed-up?

I take it that is one of the reasons why he is a first husband. Live and learn.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by dpen6
In this day of open adoption, and with the needs of the child first, how can adoption be bad?

Is it possible for all the adults in an adoption situation to put there own pain, hurts, joys, aside and focus on the needs of the child? [/b]

It's possible, but it does not always happen. You can read daily about both adoptive parents and birthparents who have shut down their kids adoptions based on their own needs and not that of their children. This is, in large part, what gives adoption a bad name today. I applaud those who stand up against this kind of thing. But "bad" adoptions still happen daily and that is where the outrage comes from.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by dpen6

I was just talking to a friend of mine at work and she was in the same situation as you. The oldest of young parents "that had to get married". I think she feels the same as you..she is a high achiever and strives for perfection in her own life. Thats hard ....I stopped trying to be p-erfect long ago.

This, I think is more a parenting style than a situational result. I know a lot of adopted adults who express the same thing. That they felt they had to be perfect, that they needed to be what their parents wanted them to be rather than who they were. They were told that they "filled a void" in the a-parent's heart (a burden no child should have). That they tried to fit in, but ultimately could not, feeling as if they disappointed their adoptive parents in the process.

I am reminded of families who will do anything to have that boy/girl in a family where all the kids are the other gender. Talk about expectations! I remember one woman saying she could wait to "dress her daughter in frilly things". God forbid she adopts a tomboy.

Parents, young, birth, adoptive, who put these kinds of expectations on their kids are doing their kids a disservice. It does not matter why they do it. The results are the same.

Kids need to be celebrated for who they uniquely are. Our job, as parents, is like that of a sculptors. The beauty is within we just help our children find it. Watching the emerge from the stone is a beautiful thing.

[dl]

Missy M: "Since I have no proof otherwise I won't call it outright bull****, but I will say I simply do not remember what I experienced in the womb!. . . .I as a nurse worked with preemie's and we'd rotate every other day to prevent the babies from bonding with us. It was not my heartbeat they heard in utero, it wasn't my smell, it was simply me caring for them."

I agree with MkMw that "this is a really important statement. And I think it's true." I was in 6 different care situations and from reading the social workers notes, bonded with whoever cared for me for any length of time. Perhaps I noticed a different person was feeding me but the important thing was I was getting fed ~ maybe they used a sock ~ LOL!!! I not only don't remember what I experienced in the womb, I don't remember any of the nurseries or foster homes during the first 13 months.

Kelli: "I've often felt that the pre-birth bond is more of an emotional feeling on the mother's part (based on the state of the mother at the time and where she is in her life) and not necessarily one that the baby feels."

I agree and actually feel it's the bioMother transferring what she wants/needs to believe onto the child.

dpen6: "It just goes to show...We all have issues....adoption alone DOES NOT make someone prone to disorders in life!"

Exactly! Can anyone NOT look around and see all the disordered people that were raised with their bioFamilies?

HappyMomAnna: "I did grow up feeling as if everything I did was an example of my parents efforts. If I messed-up it was a sign of their failures if I did well it was a sign of their awesome skill and ability."

Once again, I felt similar as I grew up. I think some that insist that adoptive families are so different perhaps WANT TO BELIEVE they are different. Perhaps it's really the bioparent that seeks validation, but because it's supposed to be about the children they put this need onto them, instead of admitting validation is a need that bioparent wants/needs met in themselves.

Colorbind love: "Biology does not magically make you a good parent. Adoption does not scar every adoptee for the rest of their life. . . .What is barbaric to me is that anyone persists in seeing one side of the equation as perfect in any manner and cannot accept that there are pros and cons to all sides of the equation of adoption."

Again, I absolutely agree. What you shared with the situations you have witnesses is sadly, reality. There is a member that posts any horrible story she can find of abuse in either a foster home or adoptive home but never acknowledges that abuse happens, unfortunately, in biological homes as well.

bromanchik: "I know a lot of adopted adults who express the same thing. That they felt they had to be perfect, that they needed to be what their parents wanted them to be rather than who they were. They were told that they "filled a void" in the a-parent's heart (a burden no child should have). That they tried to fit in, but ultimately could not, feeling as if they disappointed their adoptive parents in the process."

You mentioned that "I think is more a parenting style than a situational result." I agree and believe it is a "parenting style." I know a lot of adults raised with their biological families that express the same thing. I know one man whose Grandfather and Father were both physicians and it was expected that he too would be a physician. He tried to follow that direction but ultimately could not and has always felt that he disappointed his biological parents and grandparents in the process.

Originally posted by bromanchik
It's possible, but it does not always happen. You can read daily about both adoptive parents and birthparents who have shut down their kids adoptions based on their own needs and not that of their children. This is, in large part, what gives adoption a bad name today. I applaud those who stand up against this kind of thing. But "bad" adoptions still happen daily and that is where the outrage comes from.

Unfortunaltly, we do here about those situations far to often. There are so many other situations also....the bio parents that are allowed to keep ther kids for way to long and the trauma to the child is irreprable...his/her pschy/soul is so damaged because societys notion that biology is always best. Our social services are so overwhelmed with keeping them together and giving them multiple chances that they are unable to properly follow foster homes and adoptive homes..sometimes the end result is tragic. ( another instances is was on the news a few days ago) Please, to all you wonderful

fosters famlies...I don't mean you!

There are so may instances of wonderful adoptions, where the needs of the children are placed first...but the antiadoption s don't see or hear that. In what I have learned on these boards I am more and more thankful that my adoption played out as it did!


So...how do we assure that the childs best interest is kept in the forefront...without our own niggling feelings and agendas comeing into play. Can all the adults in the situation be totally objective, for the childs sake? I tend not to think so.

As an adoptee.I have tried to place myself in all the different scenarios that are presented....What if one of my children came home today and said they were going to be a mom or dad....AHHH it makes my heart beat a little faster just thinking about it! None of them are ready to parent.....what would I do?? My own selfish feeings.."that would be my grandbaby!!(although, I would be a very young gramma...ahem), then objectivity would havee to prevail....not easy!