[HappyMomAnna]

Wingless--I am speechless and wish you all the best.

CeraDad--It may not actually be fleash and blood but heart and soul.

Missy and all the other birthmothers I really am ashamed of the other members of the human race who could actually even think the choice to place a child would make you less able to parent another child--I guess it is ignorance because any other reason would be horrible for me to consider!

When my bio daughter was about 7 my ex and I had a pregnancy scare (as he called it) and given that it was actually a horribly abusive marriage I was very worried. I didn't want an abortion. For several days the only thing I could really imagine was that I would need to place the baby. There would have simply been no way for me to safely keep a new baby and no way I would be able to get away with three children. I was terrified and never once did the thought enter my mind that the family who might want my baby would have any other reason then love to want to adopt.

That was a 'time' in my life that lasted for many years. I didn't get out of the marriage for another four years but the baby scare had a lot to do with my mind seeing the situation I was really in. Had I given birth we will never know if I would have actually placed or not......but, had I it would have been the best thing to do for the baby.

[banjo]

99 per cent of aparents just want to be parents and will do their best to be great parents - these days it's such a mountain to climb to adopt you have to be totally committed - it's not a walk in the park to start your journey down the adoption road! In fact adoption for many aparents is far, far, far more stressful than pregnancy and a 19 hour birth! [been there]

But shame on aparents who close "open" adoptions. I'd so like to see law changes so this can never happen.

Many bmothers don't want to parent or are not ready to parent and then there's lots of parents out there that are parenting and doing such an incredibly bad job of it they would not be allowed to own a dog but they can parent - figure that out.

I just want openness in adoption and also more education of prospective birthmothers - they need to truly know the long term outcomes for themselves and their child.

That way they can make educated decisions.

I also think aparents need to know the importance of putting the needs of their children first - open adoption where possible.

I want openness for adoptees so they don't have this search in front of them to know their own history - good or bad - to me that is barbaric. It should be a right, yes it could be horrid for them but many people who are not adopted have horror stories to tell about their families...

"20 things adopted kids wish their adoptive parents knew" is a great start for everyone involved in the adoption triangle.

I could be way off the point but I think law changes are a priority so that the rights of adoptees are put first.

Plus we should also support aparents [like HappymomaAnna] because there will always be bparents that can not parent for whatever reason and society needs aparents to step in to provide love , stability etc...

When society puts children first then the world will be a better place.

Just my opinion...

[bromanchik]

I think barbaric is an unfortunate term in trying to apply to all adoptions. I think lamentable is a better term. If you look up lament in Merriam-Webster it comes up with "1 : to express sorrow, mourning, or regret for often demonstratively" It is a great loss when a mother and father cannot parent the child they give birth to. That does not mean it is not a good decision for the child to be placed for adoption, but seperation of first parents and child carries with it inevitable loss. Birthparents do not "celebrate" (a word often used in connection with adoption) adoption, we mourn that we are are not able to raise our child in the way we want them to be raised. And there are many adopted children and adults that also wonder and wish that they could have been raised in the family that gave birth to them. In fact, I know many adoptive parents who also do not wish that their children and their children's birthparents had to deal with the losses in adoption.

This is not a perfect world. So adoption must exist. But it must exist for the children and providing for the children. On another thread I was bashed because I said that adoption is about finding families for children who need them, not for adopting families who "need" children. I believe that when adoption becomes about finding children for families it does, indeed, become barbaric. Because it puts the needs of the adults before the child. Or makes the adults needs equal with that of the child's.

I think this mindset allows some adoptive parents to feel that it is OK for them to go back on their promises. After all it is about their comfort and their needs. As anyone who has parented can tell you, your needs, as a parent, are not supposed to take priority. Certainly this is expected of birthparents, to "selflessly give". It should be expected of adopting parents as well.

It is lamentable and painful when families cannot stay together. That does not mean it cannot be the right desicion for everyone. It is lamentable, painful and sinful when promises are broken that facilitated an adoption to take place. That is what I see as barbaric.

[tobeafamily]

You know, sometimes 'seagull' posters (fly in, make a lot of noise, poop on everythiing, then leave) are not bad things - they elicit some amazing posts.

Thanks, Wingless for enriching my day with your thoughtful and well written post.

Brenda - hear hear! I second your post if I may.

Regina, AMom to Ryan Joshua Thomas

[Wingless]

Originally posted by bromanchik
I think barbaric is an unfortunate term in trying to apply to all adoptions. I think lamentable is a better term. If you look up lament in Merriam-Webster it comes up with "1 : to express sorrow, mourning, or regret for often demonstratively" It is a great loss when a mother and father cannot parent the child they give birth to. That does not mean it is not a good decision for the child to be placed for adoption, but separation of first parents and child carries with it inevitable loss. Birthparents do not "celebrate" (a word often used in connection with adoption) adoption, we mourn that we are are not able to raise our child in the way we want them to be raised.

.....

It is lamentable and painful when families cannot stay together. That does not mean it cannot be the right desicion for everyone. It is lamentable, painful and sinful when promises are broken that facilitated an adoption to take place. That is what I see as barbaric.

If I have a soap box ... this is it.

WHY??? Why does it have to be that a woman is to feel great pain for giving life, but not raising it? Why MUST there be mourning? Brenda ... in placing a child for adoption I AM having this child raised in the EXACT way I want him to be raised.

Before I get stoned again ... please, I do very much understand that years ago, the options, the openness, even the closeness I have with the adoptive family was not available. I am not either suggesting to anyone that what I have is the ONLY way that adoption should be done. BUT! I will say, that the walk to becoming a mother and not parenting does not HAVE to be the end all of life! You CAN celebrate life through adoption.

The things that have to be understood is that adoption is forever. I am making a life long plan for a child that has a biological tie to myself and my children, but I have willing, knowingly and wholeheartedly chose not to participate. Not parent, not have a say in, possibly not watch grow. And I have an open adoption... but, will tomorrow the relationship I have with this adoptive family be the same as today? Maybe .. maybe not. The illusion that open adoption promises is that you will be an active participant in this child's life. What a sure way to set up a heartbreak. On both sides.

I remember when I was in high school. All my "best friends" and I made this pact ... we were not EVER going to lose touch with one another. No matter what life threw at us, we were gonna still be the same 5 people, and we would still all want to be a part of one another's life. 15 years later... I have one e-mail address that hasn't been used in a few months (my own fault), and a lifetime of great memories. The adoptive couple and I have had a very similar conversation. I will not write a "contract" that states how much, or how often we are to remain in contact. Maybe because I have children, and have had a few years to realize that life just doesn't work that way - or maybe I know that this decision is right today and I don't need to be reassured any set number of times a year that it is still right. The reality of this situation is ... I have decided not to parent, I have made the means for others to be parents, and I will have no rights to this child - forever.

In writing an adoption plan no one had to tell me what I was about to embark on. I set the rules. In today's adoptions, I can do that. But I have never allowed myself to be unrealistic in what this can mean down the road. For any of us. It is OKAY for them to make the decisions that will be best for them AND their child. It is OKAY for me to make decisions that will be best for me AND my children. Including allowing our relationship to change.

I celebrate this child in every way. I embrace his birth just as I did my other children. I'm anxiously awaiting a now dear friend to become a mother for the first time. She owes me nothing - I owe her nothing. Our lives have crossed paths because of an amazing little person. That has plenty to be happy about!

Wingless

[dadfor2]

wingless......powerful message....wow......cheers to you.


god bless
dadfor2

[quote]Originally posted by Missy M
[b][b][quote]Originally posted by dpen6
[b]Saramurphy,

Just a couple of points I want to make...

I understand you wanting to support shattered dreams. I do to. It is usually ok for the child to stay with bmom IF they truly believe they can do it. It usually is best for baby and mom.

*** Yes ...


But, as an adoptee I DO NOT consider it barbaric for my bmom to realize that she could not parent me and MADE ME AVAILABLE (after 2 years in foster care) for adoption. I take offense to anyone calling them adopters, they are my mom and Dad. There are many bmoms that should not parent or can not parent at the time of birth...in the childs best interest it is also very courageous and mature for the birtmom to realize that.

*** I don't know the specifics of your foster care and your mother. It's possible that she worked very hard to try to make it possible to keep you for two years. Many, many infant adoptions are a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and "temporary" can almost always be read "financial". As I said, I do not know her specifics, but the two-year timeline is intriguing.

*** Please do not misread my use of the term "adopter". It is the legal term and I use it to keep all the characters straight. While they may be your mom and dad, they aren't mine! LOL. It's simply the legal term to identify their role.

*** The pregnant woman may not be making decisions out of courage and maturity, but out of despair and lack of options. There may be other ways to address that than losing one's child forever.

Thanks,
Sara


Last edited by saramurphy on 02-17-2004 at 08:35 QUOTE

Just wanted to respond to the orginal post here...considering it was my thoughts and saramurghys that started the thread....Thank you Missy!

Sara posted that I "should" think about my birthmoms reasons for waiting two years...ya...I have had plenty of time to think about that. I do understand that she was hoping to be able to get me back as SHE wanted a daughter. She moved far away from me as I was in the states care to I guess "find herself". In the meantime I was being bounced from foster home to foster home in that time. In my case it was a social worker that said I NEEED to be adopted...Thank God some one was looking out for ME and not the negligant adults in my life...my life could have very different. Mt birthmom did eventually get it together and tried to find me...I was 6 years old. Imagine the damage that would have been done to me! Maybe ther are birtmoms out there saying "mother and child should not be seperated" All of society should stand up and help not to break the biological bond. That sounds so noble....but the reality is that bond just may choke the innocent baby...as courts and society romanitice that bond more and more children are getting so traumatized by there biological parents ....a cure may not be in the cards for these kids. Society is paying all right, in group homes, psch. care, meds. In my mind, our society is trying to keep biology intact with diastatrous outcomes. Maybe we have avoided some pain for biomom but the damage done to the child is insurmontable. If you don't beleiver me read some of the special needs posts.

I fully understand those are exteme cases...but there are far to many of them...you have no idea how much those stories affect me, I am a fairly strong women but I almost can feel what those kids are feeling and feel such a sense of hoplessness for them...its way to sad! So, any way Missy...."that temporary problem" has immmediate needs.

In my case adoption saved my life.....I have learned so much on these boards...I have learned about birthmom pain, amom pain, how some adoptees have major rejection and abandonment issues(of which I don't have). But I still can not help but see that in many instances adoption and the children of adoption are more about the adults in the situation....How to make it easier for the adults, how to avoid their discomfort and pain....The joy and pain always seems to be about the adults..."my pain regarding placing my baby, my pain regarding an adoption falling through, ......does any one stop and think about whats best for the child!!! To those of you that have yours babies, childrens, best interst at heart...whether adopted or birth....Thank you.

I don't think I could ever believe that adoption is a bad thing, nor do I believe that it is barbaric. I feel the antiadoption people are a real danger to children....it seems to be only about them!!

In this day of open adoption, and with the needs of the child first, how can adoption be bad?

So sara...options? help? yes...there are many today for birthmoms....

My respect goes to the birthmoms that realize that they can not bring up their child with the unconditional love, emotional enegy, or maturity needed ....my respect goes to the aparents that realize that as much as they love their child...they repesct the fact that they are NOT genetically theirs....and will bring that child up to be proud of who they are...no matter what....

Is it possible for all the adults in an adoption situation to put there own pain, hurts, joys, aside and focus on the needs of the child?

[Momofbs]

wingless

It sounds you have convinced yourself you are doing the right thing. But please be prepared for you child to come back to you and tell you otherwise. It is possible they will grow up thinking they were the unwanted one. You picked to keep their siblings, and toss them aside.

Every child deserves to be with their mother. They grew inside of you. It's your heartbeat they seek, your smell, the sound of your voice.

I haven't read of your circumstance and why you're giving up your baby. But as a mother of 2 children of my own, I could never imagine willingly giving my child away.

I do hope things turn out best. I'm a very well adjusted adoptee who carries no pain from the past. But in reading these bulletin boards, that is not the norm. There is a lot of pain in adoption and the feeling of abandonment, and seems even more so when there were previous siblings.

God Bless you and guide you.

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by Wingless

WHY??? Why does it have to be that a woman is to feel great pain for giving life, but not raising it? Why MUST there be mourning? Brenda ... in placing a child for adoption I AM having this child raised in the EXACT way I want him to be raised.

That does not negate seperation and loss. For so long birthparents were told to forget and go on. Then they were told that with open adoption they were not losing anything in being able to see their children flourish and grow. The former we know to be false, the latter I have been on a soapbox talking about for the past 15 years of my 19 year fully open adoption. To deny the loss in open adoption, in any adoption is dangerous. It is denying a part of ourselves that it lost. And it does not honor the child. Do you really believe that a child wants to know it was painless for you to let them go? That you felt no void in their leaving? It devalues them to believe that it was easy for their birthparents. Children know when they are not with the ones they are love they are sad. I was sad when I saw my baby drive away with his adoptive parents. I was sad that I could not raise him in the way I wanted him to be raised. It does not mean I was glad I found adoptive parents who could give him what i could not. It does not mean I did not celebrate and welcome him whole heartedly into the world. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Wingless
 The illusion that open adoption promises is that you will be an active participant in this child's life. What a sure way to set up a heartbreak. On both sides.

Real open adoption honors a birthparent's ongoing participation in the child's life. It is celebrating all of who the child is. I have had a real open adoption for 19 years. My son has grown up always knowing my love and committment to him. Birthparenting is not co-parenting but it is active. Because if it is to be about the child than contact and consistancy are important. Any thing less is not open adoption.

Originally posted by Wingless
 I will not write a "contract" that states how much, or how often we are to remain in contact. Maybe because I have children, and have had a few years to realize that life just doesn't work that way - or maybe I know that this decision is right today and I don't need to be reassured any set number of times a year that it is still right. The reality of this situation is ... I have decided not to parent, I have made the means for others to be parents, and I will have no rights to this child - forever.

Ah, but the child has a right to you. Real open adoption, contact, is not about you it is about the child. Contact is about having him know he was always loved, that he is loved still.

Originally posted by Wingless
 I celebrate this child in every way. I embrace his birth just as I did my other children. I'm anxiously awaiting a now dear friend to become a mother for the first time. She owes me nothing - I owe her nothing. Our lives have crossed paths because of an amazing little person. That has plenty to be happy about!
Wingless

Celebrating his birth is great. I continue to celebrate my son's life in the loving contact I have with him and his family. I do this not because I feel I owe his adoptive mother anything, but because I owe my son. The Chinese have a saying that when you save a life you have some responsibility toward the person whose life you saved. I believe that to be true for giving life. In giving my son life I have a responsibility to him. I may not have been able to parent him but he is still a part of me and I am a part of him. He is not a mere best friend, he is my son. There are other things I can give him. I owe him that much.

[rebeccasusan]

I am so not a fan of forum posting anymore, and the primary reason is, that more than people just sharing their personal experiences, and providing hope and encouragement, everyone wasnts to tell everyone else how to FEEL, which, frankly, is impossible.

Wingless, if you feel hopeful and celebratory at this time, great. Can't people just be happy about that? If or when she does feel a sense of loss sometime in the future, then support her at that time, as well...

[patrisha]

I will not write a "contract" that states how much, or how often we are to remain in contact. Maybe because I have children, and have had a few years to realize that life just doesn't work that way - or maybe I know that this decision is right today and I don't need to be reassured any set number of times a year that it is still right. The reality of this situation is ... I have decided not to parent, I have made the means for others to be parents, and I will have no rights to this child - forever.

As I read this comment, I couldn't help but think about my husband's neice. Her parents divorced when she was a baby and her mother got custody. Both parents remarried and went on to have additional children. Since "things changed" and since he chose someone else (her mom) to be the primary parent, is he somehow relieved from maintaining the previously expected level of contact and commitment he agreed to at the time of the divorce?

These are children. How can we possibly expect them to understand that life's little obligations (ie their kept siblings) might get in the way of our ability to keep up a relationship with them?

The illusion that open adoption promises is that you will be an active participant in this child's life. What a sure way to set up a heartbreak. On both sides.

It's only a prescription for heartbreak if one of the parties is not committed to making it work. It may be a "work in progress" and evolve over the years, but it only becomes a heartbreak if the participants turn it into one.

Trish

[HappyMomAnna]

Adoption and children of divorce are not even close to the same situation. It is not fair to compair the two issues for the adults or for the children involved. I am remarried and my bio children have both a step-father and a step-mother these people are important to them but they are not the PARENTS. The fact that one parent involved in divorce chooses to go on and make another life with another person in no way compairs to a birthmother placing a baby.

I could write entire pages of all the reasons these two situations are in NO way alike at all for any of the parties involved. The biggest issue is that even if one parent does walk away for a long period of time generally they retain rights unless a step parent adopts and then that is adoption. An absent parent still maintians the rights given under the divorce decree as well as generally the obligation to pay child support. If an absent parent fails to visit--pay support--or exercise their parental rights that is that parents problem and one which can be resolved.

I COMPLETELY RESPECT WINGLESS and any other birthmother for any feelings she has--for any decision she makes Having been a bio mother and feared a new baby that would have been placed in a terrible situation I can completely understand where she is coming from. There are actually women who do carry babies in their wombs for other families as a plan from conception. It is actually very possible to experience pregnancy and not raise the child.

YES--many birthmothers suffer pain and loss and grief and I am sure that even Wingless will expereince some level of 'feeling' when everything is said and done. But just like NOT every adoptive parent needs a newborn baby--just like NOT every adoptee sufferes the Primal Wound so to is it very possible to be a bithmother and Not die over her decision.

Everyone is individual and unique and how you feel may not be the feelings of someone else!

This forum is educational and infomative to all sides of the triad--just because one person does not feel the same as I do does not mean they are wrong!

Depn6--

I still can not help but see that in many instances adoption and the children of adoption are more about the adults in the situation....How to make it easier for the adults, how to avoid their discomfort and pain....The joy and pain always seems to be about the adults..."my pain regarding placing my baby, my pain regarding an adoption falling through, ......does any one stop and think about whats best for the child!!! To those of you that have yours babies, childrens, best interst at heart...whether adopted or birth....Thank you.

I AGREE 100% When I live each day--when I log on to this forum--when I answer another persons question--concern or problem my ONLY hope is that my involvement is about the CHILDREN we are talking about! I don't care how badly someone wants to adopt--or about how they choose to adopt--I don't care about where they adopt--When I see a birthmother who is having an issue my hope and prayer is that this birthmother make the right choice for her child--Peroid.

When I speak to parents of special needs children such as I have--my advice is NOT about making their situation better--my advice is about helping those parents calm down--think about it and do what is the best for that child...period.

NONE of the CHILDREN we are talking about have ever asked to be in the situations we the adults have put them into. NOT one of them. NONE of them have made these decisions it has all been adults making them. Open--closed--infant--older child--special needs--interracial--other country--WHATEVER it is the responsibility rests in the hands of the adults to provide the CHILD with the best life possible. This responsiblity weighs very heavy on the PARENT who will raise the child. I firmly believe that MY ATTITUDE about my childrens birthmother and my childrens adoption is the number one key in the way my children develope.

My children are going to grow up oneday and might actually come to a place like this--I hope by that time respect for the right to own our own personal feelings about our own life is more possible--I don't want anyone telling my children how to feel--I want them to feel how they DO....good, sad, happy, mad, whatever it is that they feel.....I sure Pray that NO one in their lives tries to make my children feel that I have acted in a selfish way and been a bad person for wanting to love them--just as I pray to God every night that their birthmother get herself together and finds a life she can manage to live--and is able to smile when they meet her again!

[dl]

Posted by rebeccasusan: "Wingless, if you feel hopeful and celebratory at this time, great. Can't people just be happy about that? If or when she does feel a sense of loss sometime in the future, then support her at that time, as well..."

I completely agree. Why is it that when someone posts that they were not/are not totally destroyed by adoption they get doom and gloom posts and told just you wait or you're in denial? Several adult adoptees, including myself, that post that we are NOT wounded, traumatized and disordered have repeatedly been told that we are in denial. I have seen other bmothers post that they were at peace with their decision and they were driven away from the forum by the negativity thrown at them. It's like some just can't stand to have adoption shown as anything other than horrible!
There are sad and tragic stories in life, adoption related and not. There are also joyful stories of a child that did indeed thrive in the adoptive home and a bioParent/bioMother that did live to experience more joy in life at peace with their/her decision. Is there not room for hope and inspiration?
Wingless, I do hope you stay and continue to share your inspiring and heartfelt words and feelings.

Momofbs: "Every child deserves to be with their mother."
Even if the bioMother is not in a position to parent? I personally agree with dpen6. I feel every child deserves to be brought up "with the unconditional love, emotional energy, or maturity needed ...."

"I'm a very well adjusted adoptee who carries no pain from the past. But in reading these bulletin boards, that is not the norm."
There are many on this forum that share your feeling of being a "very well adjusted adoptee who carries no pain from the past". If you consider the many well adjusted adoptees that haven't stumbled across this forum, it is more the norm than not, IMO.

bromanchik: "Do you really believe that a child wants to know it was painless for you to let them go? That you felt no void in their leaving? It devalues them to believe that it was easy for their birthparents."
IMO, there is a huge difference between what "Wingless" has posted and asking if one wants the adoptee to feel that relinquishing them was "easy and painless with no feelings of void." As an adoptee, I would rather know that my bioParents went on to live and enjoy life vs. thinking of them as bitter, miserable destroyed people in a perpetual state of mourning, due to a decision that they made out of their desire that I have a life they could not give me at that time. It would not validate me as a person at all to learn their life was spent in such negativity. I don't understand anyone feeling validation due to another being miserable ~ whether an adoptee or a bioParent. My bioFather is so grateful and happy to know that I did have the life he hoped I would have.

I'm curious ~ to those raised by YOUR biological parents ~ adoptive parents or bioparents on this forum: Do you, as an adult, need/receive validation as a person from YOUR parents?
Perhaps I'm missing the point, but my validation as an adult comes from the way I live my life, my accomplishments as a person, the respect and love of my family and friends. In other words, I am validated by my present life ~ not something that happened umpteen years ago over which I had no control. How could that possibly validate me as an adult?

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by dlouis
[b]
I'm curious ~ to those raised by YOUR biological parents ~ adoptive parents or bioparents on this forum: Do you, as an adult, need/receive validation as a person from YOUR parents?
Perhaps I'm missing the point, but my validation as an adult comes from the way I live my life, my accomplishments as a person, the respect and love of my family and friends. In other words, I am validated by my present life ~ not something that happened umpteen years ago over which I had no control. How could that possibly validate me as an adult?

I was raised by my biological parents, but I have to say that I do want their validation. I want their respect and love and ii is important to me that I was loved and wanted.

[dl]

I was raised by my biological parents, but I have to say that I do want their validation. I want their respect and love and ii is important to me that I was loved and wanted.

I have always felt loved and wanted by my aparents. They always gave me love and respected the way I chose to live my life as an adult and the choices I made. In stating what gave me validation, I did include "the respect and love of my family and friends. In other words, "I am validated in my present life" .

What I'm not understanding is how it could be possible to not be validated in my present life as an adult due to being relinquished for adoption. How could that possibly invalidate me, today ~ in the present?

I think by asking for input of those raised by their biological parents I was attempting to understand if there was something different that a child receives when it is raised by their biological parents that gives them validation. What you mention is no different than what I received from my aparents.