[savannah2]

Hi Jim, I did come over here to read the rest of the story. I had a fs once that was a rager and had to be hospitalized.He had the same affect when we went to see him.Do you know if he was medicated? he very well could have been also he may know that if he acts up there he will be restrained, he probably has seen it done since hes been there. I dont know how you pulled it together to go and see him and make it thru it.I guess the length
of time you had him gives you many confusing feelings.

[joskimo]

That must be very difficult with him not even acknowledging your presence, after all you've done. Ours does not rage, he does show anger, it's usually when he's been told no to something. He keeps most of his emotions internal. The acting out behaviors we've been having are not rage related, more sneaky stuff, not being where he's supposed to be, he does talk back to teachers and has gotten in trouble a lot that way. I think I told you last week that he got admited into the mental health program at the school, I am hopeful that it will help those behaviors. His shrink is gone so much he normally only sees him twice a month and one of those visits is a treatment team meeting so there's little counseling going on. I'm quite frustrated with the level of care he's been recieving but the high school program should help I hope. Tomorrow is probation, our p.o. is retired social worker so he uses a lot of counseling techniques as well. We had our weekly support group meeting last night and had a speaker from the local youth sexual assault RTC speak, it was very interesting, it's sad. Next week the topic is on safety -- that's one I go over and over in my head, shouldn't a child feel safe in their bed in their room at night? Who would have thought. If you aren't safe at home, where are you safe? She slept in our room for awhile after it happened but is solo again now. I have a lock for her door but she rarely uses it. I still get nervous though.

[HangingOn]

He has never been on drugs, and they do not recommend them. He has perfect behavior there.
My wife called last night to see if there was any emotion about the visit. He was called," A happy, well-adjusted young man, who shows affection to the adults there; no behavior problems, a normal kid who is immature.
We don't wish to play this game any more. We're just waiting to see what the court does next month.
We need to go on with our lives. The other 6 are so happy now; they feel safe in there home again, that's all we want.
Thanks for the posts. Jim

[joskimo]

what is the reason for court next month? We had probation tonight, it went well, he's going to be let to visit with friends again, knowing if he blows it again residential is a likely outcome. We haven't done meds yet either though it's not off the table.

His mom has been in town for 2 days now, but we still haven't heard from her. I had invited her to come to probation no contact. She's always been such a flake. It's frustrating and I hurt for the boys that she's so casual about being a mom. I love them but I'll never be their mom and she treats them with such disregard most of the time and then too much when she does pay them attention. It drives me crazy.

[HangingOn]

We have a six month staffing coming up in May, if I can get that #### group home to set the date. DS has a orthodontist appointment on the same day, so he needs to get a date set so we can coordinate this.
At the staffing we will all present the evaluations, and recommemdations, to DHS. He's not in the right place, but doesn't qualify for the RTC (IQ). They are all playing games.
In August we will go back to court for the six month review. The court will decide if there will be a change in the permanancy plan.
We've received a letter from ds, stating that he is sorry for what he did to the little kids, and hopes they heal completely from he damage he has done to them. Now, I ask you, does this letter sound like it is from a child with an IQ of 71, and Flat Affect (no emotion)? We feel he is getting some help with his letters. What a cruel thing to do.
I don't envy you with a birth mom involved now. Has she visited him or the younger one? What do you mean by contact with friends?
Keep me posted.

[savannah2]

Hi Jim,I was just wondering about that iq test. what kind of a student was he in school? wouldnt they have known if his iq was really low?also how do they know he even tried on this iq test they gave him? alot of kids in residential are so far behind the school doesnt even have grades they work on levels so that sounds crazy to me. my fd is 13 doing 3rd and 4 th grade work in the rtc she was in before. she is a day student now.

[joskimo]

Last time the Bmom came was January, we hadn't told her about the assault yet, call it cowerdice. Mostly I was pretty involved in the kids and my parents and all I just didn't want to tackle her. She has a lot of problems, mostly stemming from being a user for 25 years, alcohol, illegal drugs and prescription. So she flipped out when we told her and didn't make contact with the boys for a couple days even though we knew she wouldn't be in town for long. Then I caught wind from my mother-in-law that she (the Bmom) was going to just see the non-offending son. Well I couldn't let that happen. As much as the older one has hurt us, it would have destroyed him to be rejected by her that way. Although we don't know yet why he did what he did, it's reasonable to understand that he has love and hate for her, he has love and hate for me, and he has at least hate for my daughter. So at my insistance she did see both boys for a few hours last time she was here (she was here for a week).

Here it is day 3 of the new visit and we haven't heard from her yet. I can understand that I think she feels both guilt and distaste and love and anger. So do I. I've tried to tell her though that if my husband and I can stand by him, then she can. We've been hurt worse by this.

As far as seeing friends, his assessment declares him not to be a danger to others, which is why he's in outpatient treatment. Every time he's earned privledges he's blown it with behavior problems. He's just getting to a place where we think he can see his friends again, at their house if parents are going to be around. If he blows it again though by misbehaving, he will likely be looking at RTC.

As far as the letter you received, I would find that very disconcerting. Are these things he wanted to say at the meeting with you or are these things his counselor thought he should say? Does he know what he's saying and believes it? I'd ask. It's very manipulative to have him following someone who wants him to do good without knowing if he has the capability to do good. That's something I often feel like we're going through.

[HangingOn]

Last night my wife called ds and asked him if he had any help in writing the letter; if he wrote it before the visit or after; to repeat to her what he had written, and spell words.
He repeated what he had written and spelled the words. She asked him what he wanted her to do; he said, "Keep the three little kids safe and don't let me come home." He then cried. My wife emailed the sw at the group home and asked him to call to set up a therapy session with ds, sw and mom. We have yet to hear back. This power struggle between the "professionals," and the parents gets old. We have bent over backwards to comply with his help.
Many have said we should keep the door open with him. Until my wife was able to heal from the anger and grieving, we were unable to reach out to him. You are very right to do what you are doing; sticking by him as no one else has.
It's so confusing to deal with all of this. I only know that my wife feels that God has had compassion on our family and helped us heal, so she should have compassion on ds. It is so good to see her able to reach out again.
I have been confused myself, wondering how all the parents of children who cause such pain, can stand by their kids so easily. I was so angry for what ds did to my wife and children; but now that my wife has been able to heal, it has helped me to back her in this.
I'm sorry you have one more thing to deal with, in that the bio mom is such a negative force in the boys lives. You'd think that there would be some motherly instinct in her that would want to reach out to him; after all, he didn't hurt her.
How is your daughter? Our daughter and two little boys are doing so well now. They are happy and trusting again. We have to be really careful with the daughter as she is still just healed. We have to make sure she is able to succeed at things like homework, playing with others, etc. She tries so hard and if she thinks she isn't doing a good job, we see that look of fear on her face; kinda like she doesn't like herself again, and she is failing. We set it up so that she can accomplish what she is trying to do. She has such over achievers for siblings that she is going that way too. That's great, except for the fact that the abuse took all her self esteem, and she is just getting it back.
How are you going on the adoption? Remember, this new child will be adopted with your eyes wide open. Just remember to really dig into the past and look for red flags and things you know you can't handle. We have adopted all special needs children, and were able to handle them all, except for sexual abuse.
Thanks for the posts.

[joskimo]

I"m glad your wife is doing better, it is difficult and I know what you mean about standing by your child. I remember one day last fall, amybe less then a month after it happened I told a friend I felt like one of the Columbine parents. Of course there's no simularity but at the time I was so devestated by my child's actions, so disgusted with him, that my child could hurt my daughter and I so deeply. There are a lot of different levels in the healing process and some days I feel like I'm back at square one.

That's wonderful that your children are doing better, are they all in counseling right now? My daughter stopped. She went for a few months and felt like she was done, I kept making her go which got really painful for everyone and then our counselor moved so we used that as her graduation. She got it out, she talked about it and in her words, she was done talking about it. I think she's doing well though, she's a very strong girl with a dynamic sense of self, very confident and even though she didn't stop the assault out of fear, by telling us when it happened and us taking the appropriate actioins, I think it helped confirm to her that she wasn't to blame, etc. That may have been different if she were as young as your children, the smaller they are they just don't realize that they have rights.

That's good that your son doesn't want to go home, that he knows that would be a bad thing. Ours does want to come home and my husband would like that eventually as well. Every now and then I think maybe, but it just doesn't feel right. If it were to happen it would be a long time from now, he's no where close to being ready to be in our home, I don't think they've even touched the tip of that iceburg.

[HangingOn]

My wife has written ds a letter. She is now willing to go there and talk. Since she feels safe, knowing they are not going to force us to take him back, she can now, reach out to him.
Our problem is the sw at the group home; he sees no depression in ds, and we do. The gh does not believe in medicine, as it is too much trouble. I'm not saying he needs meds, just that the gh wants things to run smoothly, without them having to put forth much of an effort.
My wife wants to take the letters he has written, stating: I'm sorry for what I did to the little kids, and hope they heal completely from the damage I have done to them; and that he loves us; and that he wants us to keep the little kids safe and not let him come home. She thinks she sees a glimmer of a conscience in him, and if so, he may be able to go forward with therapy.
I can tell that you have been through some of the same emotions we have felt. It took a long time to get past the anger; the trouble is, the sw thinks there should be no anger in order for us to have a session with him. This is asking too much; we are past it, but some of it will remain. Where are you with the anger?

[joskimo]

This might sounds weird, but I don't have a lot of anger anymore towards the assault. That's not to say I don't have anger. As far as the assault I have sadness, at what he took from my daughter, at splitting our family, on putting such a huge burden on my parents, on screwing up his future, on whatever pain he's been in to make him act out in such a way.

I do feel anger when we're having behavior problems with him, when he acts unworthy of the 2nd chance we've given him. That makes me angry. I have to beleive he will do good, that's he'll get his act together, it's very frustrating.

The boys finially saw their mom today, I told you she was in town since Monday right? So she finially saw them, we took them to meet up at the mall, imagine my surprise when I got a call an hour and 20 minutes later to pick them up. She leaves tomorrow, she was here for a whole week and she could only spare an hour and 20 minutes. I get so mad. All they get is scraps, is it any wonder he has anger towards women?

[HangingOn]

My wife's anger was deep and profound; it came from the PTSD that she suffered for three months straight. Her health is not good now; she has asthma, diabetes, and now acid reflux. But I will say that when she healed, it was over. Now we are just trying to get her well.
I feel sorrow for your boys and the 1hour and 20 minutes of token time she gave them. Do you supposed she knows she is partly to blame for their problems, or is she just so selfish she doesn't want to bother? Anyway, it's a good thing those boys have you. Our daughter is healing now, and shows the old self confident child she used to be. When we go places and someone says, " aren't you cute." She attaches herself to my wife and stays there. Someone asked her for a kiss and she said, " I only kiss my mommy and daddy." Way to go !!!!1

[tac417]

I want to start by saying that my heart goes out to both of your families.....you have been through so much, and have shown such strength. I was so happy in reading your posts to hear that your children that were victimized are doing better. I do not have a child that has been victimized or abused...but I do work in a RTC that has children with both problems...I also worked in a treatment facility for adolescent sexual offenders for a number of years. It is so good to see that both of your families are willing to stand by their children and see the hope that can still exist. You would be surprised at how rare that is. I don't want to go on for a long time but I wanted to commend you both for the balance that you have set in taking care of both the victims and the abusers. (I hope I haven't offended either of you with the use of these terms). I know that you have both mentioned that you are not allowing your children contact at this point....I think that is a good decision....I wanted to recommend that prior to any contact happening in the future (if you/your child desires this), the child who was victimized be given the opportunity to tell the other child how she felt and to express her/his anger at being abused. When I worked with the offenders, we had this done prior to any contact and was done with each of the children having their own therapist present. It was amazing how empowering this was for the child who was victimized, and often when contact was re-established the anger that has been suppressed resurfaces which is why we always felt that it was important for the therapists to be present.

I wish you both the best of luck with your families.
Christine

[joskimo]

I want to say good for your daughter for establishing her boundaries, that's a huge thing, you should be very proud of her.

Do you ever worry about this being the defining moment of your family? I don't want to be the family that was assaulted, I don't want my daughter's childhood to be defined by the assault, you know what I mean? I think part of healing is realizing our lives are made of more then this act. I worry that my nephew will be defined by it if he doesn't get his act together and participate more actively in his treatment. I think that's why I haven't told many people, once we wear labels it's really hard to shake them. I"m more able to tell people now that I'm on the road to recovery and able to see our world as multifaceted rather then focused on the one event. I"m still very selective though. The support group we go to is almost done, it's educational/support, 12 weeks and every week is on a different topic with a guest speaker. We've been asked to speak at the next series on our experience, that will be a big deal, it's a small town and it's like coming out of the closet, but if we can help anyone through this nightmare that would be a good thing.

And thank you TAC for the comments. I know that clarification, where the offender appologizes to the victim, weighs heavily on my mind and I don't know that I will be supportive of it. Not in person, not to her. I think he owes a lot of appologies, not just to her, but I may want hers in writing to her. I don't know, it's so far off that I'll have to see how old she is and how well she's dealing with the issue then, but I think you have a very good point about having the victim identify their feelings first. My weariness regarding clarification is that it seems to put the control back in the hands of the offender.

[tac417]

Hi Joskimo
I would NEVER push your daughter into a clarification meeting, and I hope you didn't get that from my response...those meetings are highly emotional and everyone needs to be prepared. I think you are right on track that your daughter needs to have ALL the control in this situation, and clarification or any type of contact should only be done when/if she is ever ready. Clarification meetings can be very effective, but if either of the children are not ready or are "faking" their progress in therapy, it can be very hurtful. I wanted to mention the meetings because, in working with offenders, I found that a lot of families wanted to push past issues "under the rug" and get their children together without anything being openly discussed. (Although in reading your posts, it doesn't seem like you would allow that to happen. It sounds like you have a very open relationship with your children.) I really wanted to advocate for empowering the victim when/if they are ever ready.