[HangingOn]

We were in somewhat the same predicament as you are. We had our 7th child home for 8 months (March-Nov.) when this mess was found out. We were to finalize in December and the DHS knew of this mess; the adoption agency could have pulled him, but they knew we had removed the problem and were in therapy. We were suddenly faced with the fact that we had another new child and he came home at four years old, just like the other one. Our new son was in several placements in Vietnam before he came home. My wife had gone over to meet him and to submit our paperwork; and then returned two months later to pick hom up. We made an informed decision to adopt our last son; we were not allowed full disclosure on the other one. I feel you did not know everything when you took your two nephews (did you?)....anyway, with this adoption, be very careful you look into the child's background for attachment to a caregiver at a VERY young age. Children who have bonded before can bond again. Our son NEVER attached to anyone, and we did not know this until he came home.....too late. We felt that love would conquer all, WRONG! My words to you, friend, is to be careful.
Our last son was very bonded to the foster family....he was very much prepared to come home to us....he grieved for them, and then he bonded to us. Attachment in a tiny baby can make all the difference in their future. This is just IMHO.
I am so happy for your decision to adopt. Congratulations

[HangingOn]

We, too, are dealing with the backlash on the other kids; our baby girl still scratches her face whenever she thinks of him. You're doing the right thing to reasure the younger brother that he's not to blame...poor child....maybe he was manipulated by the other one; that's what they do, CONTROL. Things will come out later on...it's too soon yet. I'm not talking about abuse, I mean when kids sexually abuse another child, it usually includes their need to have power over other children. Did anything happen to your pets? That's another thing to look for. Well, thanks for sharing. I'm so glad to see a family get stronger and go on; we're trying real hard.

[joskimo]

so did you wind up adopting the 7th child? How many of your children did the offender violate? With our oldest I beleive it was more an act of control and anger then sexuality and curiosity. He's been quite hostile towards our birth daughter for several years but I always chalked it up to sibling rivalry compounded by the fact that they aren't siblings by birth. I had no idea it would get so bad, I didn't realize that his anger was so horrible. Do you have any children by birth as well? AS much as we want to go forward with adding to our family, I also worry about the perception that we've "replaced" the offender. Because many people don't know why he's been placed out of our home or know that we are pursuing adoption, these are private matters, many are aware he's living with my parents. I know the opinions of others don't matter, but I still feel like it's going to look poorly. As well we haven't continued discussion with the offender about the adoption process. Like I'd said before, he doesn't live here, and I won't have him living here, bot for now, while on probation and treatment, I haven't been vocal about that to him, everyone else knows but he's so far away from placement, I think at this point it would just upset him further, I think once he seems like he's on trackk then this is something that can be discussed and permant placement ideas can be discussed. Part of me thinks that sounds like a coward, but he's messed up enough without realizing he's homeless as well. I don't want to be another person in a long line of people who lets him down and sends him away.

[HangingOn]

I can understand your feelings as we have dealt with them, too.
Yes, we waltzed into court (we do our own adoption paperwork) and went before a judge (who didn't know about the other stuff) who had finalized several of our adoption for us, and he said,"I would be honored to sign this adoption decree!" I admit it was very scary, but what else could we do? (we prayed a lot) We had the adoption agency behind us, so I think that the DHS didn't want to step on toes; the adoption agency had guardianship of him.
We went through court sessions where the county attorney accused us (in writing) that we were to blame; they later had to strike those paragraphs. We went through this, scared to death! But now that we are where we are, we can see how things have really gone our way; and I never want to do it again!
We have 7 adopted children and no biological children. The offender tortured the three littlest ones; then they were: 4, 4, and 8. The eight year old boy is mildly retarded and has C.P., the four year old girl had the most trauma, and the four year old boy was our newest adoptee.....can you imagine coming home and having your new brother abuse you? The older boy is recovering, but needs to be reminded of the consequences if he chooses to fall back into the old ways. The little boy is doing great; he wasn't involved much, and is a fast learner. Our darling daughter is healing, but still has "daymares?" She was badly abused.
You oldest son chose to act out his anger in a very dangerous way. Does he show any remorse? Does he have empathy for your daughter? Those are the signs that healing may be possible. I asked before, did he bond to the bio-mom as a tiny baby? Was he neglected emotionally? These are things to ask yourself.
You need to get off the guilt trip, and believe me I'm saying the same thing to myself. Your son and mine are both old enough to make decisions to change, but emotionally are they able to make those decisions? Mine couldn't care less; he's perfectly content to stay where he is (he doesn't know he is moving) , it's all about him.
Your daughter is in danger. Your son knows how much you (of course) love your daughter. He is getting back at you....you are the one he is trying to hurt. How much more could your son and mine hurt their mother than to hurt what is dear to that mother? My wife was shocked to learn how much our son hates her. He was in several placements before our home; he was neglected, and sexually abused at a very young age (baby). He never attached, normally, to anyone...he doesn't know how.
As for your adoption; your son should not even be considered in your decision whether to do it; but you must be sure how you feel about his possibly coming home and abusing the new one when he sees how much you love that child.
Are you adopting through the state? We were foster parents for almost 5 years, before we went internationally to adopt. We had 12 foster children and only one was not: RAD, sexually abused, or FAS....they all had issues that we, try as we did, could not get past. Now, with that said, we know of people who have adopted through the state and their family is making it fine. We thought if we went internationally we would avoid the bad stuff; we did with 6, and the other one nearly ruined our whole family.
About your "replacing one child with another;" this is where we let guilt have its way with us, so to speak. You do not have parental rights to terminate, so you are not throwing a child away; you are just parenting from afar. You have stated several times that you care about him and don't want him feel abandoned again. He did feel abandoned by his birth family, they all go through this. He sees your love and bond with your daughter; he can't understand why it wasn't there with his birth family. He came at a very hard age; he's holding a lot inside; so is our son. Even getting through may not help...but it can't hurt.
I am glad that our son is passive-agressive; if he were in our face with anger, I probably would not have taken it well; heads would have been rolling! But his going behind our backs, after being so nice to our face, and doing the the unthinkable, leaves us in shock. Maybe if he had been openly defiant with his anger, we could have stopped the abuse before it got so involved. But with children like ours, they will find a way to do what they want.
You did the right thing in getting him out of there....thank God your daughter is such a strong child and could come to you and tell you. We still weep over our children not telling us.
Yes, people care what others think...my wife is still dealing with this. You would in no way be replacing one child for another. Your son made his own choice to live away from home..... people are going to have different opinions about what happened no matter if they know the truth or not. We have gotten opinions and advice that would make you cry and then make you want to take a ball bat to them. We have to do what is right for us. No, we are not adopting again; we're older parents, and 6 is enough; but if we felt the "urge" to adopt again, I'm sure we would go through what you are feeling, too.
As far as "letting him down, and sending him away," you can parent from afar, like a lot of families in our situations are doing. He is already saying that you have "let him down" (picking on him) even though you continue to visit, and are involved in the decision making for him. He can only see life as about "him." You are doing everything you can, at this time: keeping your daughter safe, keeping the oldest son safe, and comforting the younger son. What more can you do? Nothing. Sorry this is so long.

[ruthannbox]

You're correct. You've got to protect your daughter. That's job one.

[joskimo]

I"m wondering what sort of placement your son is in right now? I assume residential, does it specialize in sexual offenders? I know you said it was a distance away, have you had any contact with him since the assault? Were criminal charges pressed? We signed a diversion agreement so that the charges are hanging right now to see how he does. We'll see. Today was probation and it went well, I'm having one of those optimistic days. Usually it doesn't last too long, but I keep having them. I ran into the state case worker who had the bad luck of being assigned my family when the assault occured last summer. Our file is closed now with him but I still use him as a resource, I was telling him about one of the occurances when we'd provided our son with some privledges which he promptly dissapointed us, I refered to us as "stupidly" believing him. The case worker said that it wasn't stupid, it showed that we still had faith and that was a good thing, a lot of his kids didn't have anyone to believe in them. So for whatever it's worth, we're in this together.

I hope things go well on your visit --

[HangingOn]

He was two months at a shelter, and now over two months in a group home; the doctors are going to recommend RTC for sex offenders. The DHS usually doesn't go against the recommendation.
My wife visited weekly at the shelter, but he repeated that he would kill the little kids for telling, and he would do the abuse again if he came home.
The group home is two hours away, and the RTC will be about six. He was found guilty of sexual abuse, the judge called him a pedophile, but the doctors say he is not 16 so they call it paraphilia. He admits to everything, with no emotion.
The best we can do for him is see that he is placed in the right RTC. He needs to deal with what happened. Parenting from afar is what will happen for the next several months....after that, who knows. We are saving six wonderful children, and trying to do what is best for all seven. He has choices to make; so far he has blown them all. He just doesn't care. We love him; 11 years is a long time to parent a child and lose them.

[joskimo]

I'm surprised that they would put your son in a group home as opposed to Res. Tx. Given the seriousness of the offense, the lack of remorse and the threats, that just doesn't make sense. How did the visit go?

We just started in-school treatment for our guy this week. He has to go to the treatment room in the morning before school, all the teachers are told he's part of it, he has to have lunch with the treatment people and kids, and then afterschool they meet and talk, kind of a group counseling. They also check on him in each class (he's in 9th grade). So needless to say its going to be a control issue which is one of his triggers. I figure this will make or break him, next stop residential.

You've asked about bonding. I just don't know. His mom was so wasted those first several years it's hard to say if she ever gave him bonding time. I know he's bonded to his brother which is one of the hardest parts about this situation is that they are split up for the first time ever.

[HangingOn]

This has been our main problem; DHS was not willing to SEE that his problems are very severe, and that he is dangerous. We now have doctors, EEG, MRI, and I Q testing, plus the group home saying that he needs RTC and he is in the wrong place. We have fought a hard battle, but are now seeing some results. DHS wanted him in foster care, or a group home, because it is the cheapest place to put him.....they also wanted to make sure that we pay for his help. They are used to people getting their kids taken away, and not having a parent turn their child in. Most people who go through the Juvenile court system, have no home, insurance, or job, and are not about to do anything to get their child back, although they do want the child back. We are just playing the game and, hopefully, in the end, everyone will be safe and getting the help they need.
Has your daughter seen you son since it happened? Ours would not be able to take it , emotionally.
Do you know of any other forums that are for families like ous?
Our son has RAD (reactive attachment disorder), plus paraphilia. Does your son have any diagnosis? The attachment issue is a big one; you should look at the list of behaviors on RAD; you might see your son there. IMHO only.

[joskimo]

Because our guy was a state kid prior to guardianship (we never adopted) he has Medicaid which helps a lot. Because we never adopted, we can relinquish custody at any time and the state is well aware of this. They having pushed towards RTC because his crime, while bad, was one time and didn't show a lot of pre-planning, etc. Granted he is displaying a lot of behvior issues now though. Since he has Medicaid we can refer him to RTC if we feel he's getting out of hand and we've been at that line for a bit now. HOwever, a RTC for sex offenders he has to be a state kid which means that juvenile justice has to take him back to court and adjudicate him for his crime and then he's a ward of the state and can be placed in a center for youth sex offenders. That decision will be made by his shrink if it looks like RTC is the way to go. I am hopefull that the school based MH treatment will work.

AS far as seeing my daughter, no, that's against his probation. I don't think she's ready for it. She tells me that she's not scared of hi but she's still really mad at him. I'm not sure when his probation ends but part of successful counseling is when he gets to the point of appologizing to his vicitims, mean her and us. He's no where close to that and even if he gets off probation I wouldn't want him to see her until he's ready for that, but she's not ready for it either. Because we live in the same town, a very small town, there's a lot of coordination that has to occur. He plays football and she's a cheerleader for a younger division, being a small town EVERYONE goes to the games, but we have to work it so that they aren't in the same place as each other, which sometimes I feel like still gives him power over her. Holdiays are a pain as well because he's living with my parents so we can't all get together and have to figure out who misses out. My mom's bday party was last week and my daughter went to a friend's house, it's hard. My step-dad and I argue a lot over different aspects of his life, because they are primary care takers, it's just difficult and causes a lot of strain on all of us.

I try to be supportive of him, I do love him, but don't get me wrong, there are days when I wish we could just send him away and not have to deal with it, it's so difficult and it wears me out.

I don't know of a support group for weird families like ours, the hieght of dysfunction! If you hear of any, let me know, we are a fairly unique breed.

[HangingOn]

Ours was adjudicated for his crime and the DHS has custody. Does that mean he is a ward of the state? We still have a say in his treatment, and we are making good on that. We want him in a RTC for sex offenders; he's been on vacation for five months. It all takes time.
Did you get any answers from his evaluations? Diagnosis? Do you feel like he is bonded to you and your husband? We were so fooled by him, thinking he loved us, when he didn't love anyone. Does your son ask to come home? Can you see emotion in him: empathy, remorse, fear, sadness, etc.? We see nothing in ours, and that is very scarey.
You are so blessed to have caught it the first time, and your daughter trusted you enough to come to you.
Does the brother visit your son? Have you talked to him about what happened and the possibility that they were both sexually abused in the bio home? I was told, there is always a reason why children act out. I know it wasn't anything we did to him, and that it was the four years in Korea. I know you have racked your brain trying to figure out what could have happened to him, and that your family did nothing but love him. Something happened to him before he became your son; this doesn't sound like playing doctor to me. One teacher, at the shelter, told me my son was so sweet, and maybe what I saw was playing doctor. Ya, right!

[joskimo]

don't you love how people add their 2 cents in without knowing the story? I got pretty peaved when I first posted on this site and was asked by someone if my daughter had encouraged it.

The younger brother does see his brother periodically. Next year they'll both be in high school so will see each other more often. They go to weight training for football twice a week and that's usually it, sometimes the one who lives with us will go out and stay with my folks. And every now and then we'll have the older one spend the night if my daughter is staying at a friends house. I'm not comfortable doing this and we've only done it maybe 4 times in the last 8 months.

Diagnosis, I just looked it up Axis 1 adjustment disorder with mixed emotional features 309.28

I think because your son has been adjudicated that he's in state custody, I don't know, that's how it works here, jut like an adult who is sent to prison is in state custody. As the primary suport you should have a say and be involved and all that, but I think they still have custody, I don't know, you should check into it.

Just got a call from the boys' mother and she'll be here for the week. That won't be easy. She still uses. She wants him to move in with her. Although like I said it would be easy not to have him around, I don't think she's up to the amount of effort it would take to parent him. She drives me crazy and my husband (her brother) will barely talk to her so it's always up to me to keep things going which is very stressful. I'm traveling the next week, bummer it isn't the same time If he were just having acting out issues and nothing on the sexual assault I might be inclined to let him move there, but he doesn't want to go anyways, she lives in an even smaller town that you have to fly or boat to. (we live in Alaska) Unfortunately his shrink is gone next week, I'd really like her at a treatment team meeting, but I may try to get her to go to a probation meeting with us anyways.

[HangingOn]

We live in a very small town, in the Midwest. We are just now hearing some gossip, and my wife is devastated. When I read the beginning of this thread, I was so sad for your getting that post. Children are not to blame for sexual abuse, especially when there is that much difference in their ages. The older child coerced your daughter, the same with my little one. Please be watchful of her emotions, especially being a girl, and puberty ahead.
You, are handling a lot, just like my wife. She suffered PTSD for the last four months; she's just now able to make it through a day without crying.
I think the bond with the two brothers is a good thing, they need each other.
It must be rough with your son living with your parents; how does he act for them? Ours is a perfect angel at the group home; why not, he's not going through any stress. I only hope the RTC will get to the issues.
Yes, he is in the custody of the DHS; we did it voluntarily. We do have a lot of say. I asked my wife about it, I wasn't sure.
Our dx is paraphilia....too young for pedophile.
I can't imagine dealing with all this, and the birth mom too.
ALASKA?!!! Sexual abuse is everywhere.... Good luck with your visitor, and I'll let you know about next Monday's visit.

[joskimo]

you've asked about regret and I don't know that he shows or feels it, his shrink says he does. I'm not in a place where I can talk to him about the assault, we talk about other things but it's a hard one for me to discuss with him, I'd say that's true for my husband as well as my parents. We're all pretty busy dealing with his acting out stuff that the real reason we're on his case all stems from the assault. I know he has a goal of coming back home. I haven't told him that won't happen because him being able to come home is so far off it doesn't seem neccisary.

His mom wants he and his brother to go visit in June for her wedding. Niether my husband or I want to go and she's not exactly trustworthy so I have to figure out how we're going to manage this. My elderly in-laws live in the same community so they may take responsibility for them.

I'm sorry for the gossip, I've been waiting to hear if any comes around about us. I've been pretty tight-lipped about the assault and not many people know first hand, you never know in a small town though, service providers and school administrators and all that, things get around. There are days I want to shout it from the rooftops though, when my daughter is having problems at school I want to just say "well we just didn't have time for homework last night, she was feeling rather grouchy after her sexual assault counseling" or we just don't have time to fund raise for this activity, we're going to our sons probation visit. haha. Of course excuses are excuses, but when peopel complain aobut hte petty things in life I want to just look at them and tell them they have no idea how bad life can get.

[HangingOn]

The visit was today, and frankly, I would have loved to see him rage. He is like a robot, everything he does: eat, walk, talk, breathe, etc., is like a robot.
After we played cards with him, (he never even acknowledged I was ever there) we were taking him out to lunch. My wife noticed he had torn the knee in his good pants; that tear was not there when we arrived. It told me he is very angry, but refuses to let it out.
He is making no progress in the group therapy or the private one. We are doing over his IQ test; (it was 71), and has to be 75? to be accepted into a RTC. He'll probably end up in a foster home.
They are all recommending the RTC, but that won't matter if he doesn't have the IQ.
His MRI and EEG were negative too...whatever that means.
We feel so helpless.
I'm sorry if it is unkind to wish we had a little of your raging; it is just so frustrating to see a child so lifeless.