[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by MamaS

Doesn't this contradict what so many birth mothers have said on this forum? "I gave up my baby because I had no help or support (from family, society, etc.) If there had been help available, I would have kept my baby." So, the PAP provides the help and support and the mother keeps her baby. Except that the PAP doesn't realize that is what is happening until the end, when they discover they are not PAPs at all.

And I am one of those birth mothers who have said that on these forums...I had absolutely no emotional support or assistance from my family. I think you're missing the point when birth/first moms, especially those from the closed era, talk about this issue in our support forums. Do you have any idea at all how devastating it is to not have any emotional support from your own mother or father when you're a pregnant teenager? To be told that your child is a bastard, that you are no longer welcome in the home you grew up in if you keep your child? Do you have any idea how horrifying it is to realize that your parents may actually hate you and your baby, that they most likely will never give your child a grandparent's unconditional love? That is what I'm talking about when I tell my story of no emotional support from my parents. (And to be honest, I have no idea why your post has triggered me so much.)

Potential adoptive parents have the power to stop these scams...but it very well may mean waiting longer to get a baby. The e-moms and birth/first moms don't have one iota of power in the adoption industry...the adoptive parents are the ones who hold most of the cards in terms of power. They're the ones paying the big bucks, and believe it or not, they are the ones who have the power to make this kind of nonsense stop. The adoption industry is the entity that came up with "bmom expenses" in the first place -- it's a marketing tool used to get expectant mothers in the door. Is it surprising, then, that bmom expenses are being exploited, that scams are becoming commonplace?

Say no to the industry, and stop the scammers...

[crick]

I think it does come down to the paps saying "no, I won't pay this" to stop the scams. That's simply because of logistics. I mean, those who have the money make the wheels turn. Just a fact.

That doesn't mean I think that emoms should sit there and say "show me the money" and accept all the expenses just because their state ALLOWS it. We all have a responsibility to do the right thing.

Personally if the expense isn't related to the care of the baby in medical terms, I just don't think it should be allowed. It's not like the majority of emoms are homeless, non working, non productive people in society so just because they make an adoption plan, they aren't typically going to quit their jobs and not plan for their future after the baby is born. They have to have a place to live, food, job to pay bills etc. regardless if they are pregnant or not.

Paps who refuse to use an agency that charges 50k, well soon enough that agency is either out of business or has to change their rates. As long as they are making the money though, they will not stop that process. So again...it goes back to the Paps saying "I want to be a parent, but this isn't the way I want to do it." There are so many people on here who I read about paying expenses that do not reach those ridiculous amounts, so I know it can be done.

As for the scammers, well they are in every single industry out there. If there isn't money to be made though...tends to weed them out.

[CalamityJane]

On one hand, you have adoption professionals attracting pregnant women by promising them financial help. Just take a look at the ads on this site and others related to adoption!

On the other hand, you have adoption professionals telling hopeful adoptive parents that they have to pay up or they'll never have children. A bald face lie! They create these issues by making offers of financial support without even being asked!

They dangle dollar bills and unborn children in the faces of those who are most desperate and the only ones who can stop it are the ones who are in need of dollar bills or want a child, because the agencies are getting rich off the practice!

To me, it doesn't sound like the bad person here is any member of the triad. To me, professionals are causing this problem and as long as they dangle the dollar bills of adoptive parents in front of pregnant women who don't have the financial means to support themselves (or do and are scamming just to scam) this problem will continue to go on.

If anyone has personally witnessed the type of actions talked about in this thread and didn't report it to the authorities (the courts, the Department of Children and Families) they are part of the problem, not the solution. Buying a child is illegal in all 50 states and there are laws (if anyone cares to enforce them) that protect children from being traded for gas cards, gift cards and a years worth of free housing.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by MamaSSO,

PAP's just rent apartment after apartment, pay medical bill after medical bill, and provide gift cards, gas cards, taxi fares, etc. to expectant mother after expectant mother until they finally run out of money and hope? Seems like there should be a better solution for both parties!

Yes, there is. They can chose not to pay an expectant mom's rent, etc.

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Potential adoptive parents have the power to stop these scams...but it very well may mean waiting longer to get a baby. The e-moms and birth/first moms don't have one iota of power in the adoption industry...the adoptive parents are the ones who hold most of the cards in terms of power. They're the ones paying the big bucks, and believe it or not, they are the ones who have the power to make this kind of nonsense stop. The adoption industry is the entity that came up with "bmom expenses" in the first place -- it's a marketing tool used to get expectant mothers in the door. Is it surprising, then, that bmom expenses are being exploited, that scams are becoming commonplace?

Say no to the industry, and stop the scammers...

Bingo!!! Its the attiudes that I hear on this thread that only bolster my assertion that pre birth matching is NOT a good thing....the potential for paps to get scammed and for the bmoms only to be seen as a breeder and the child just a product...if the match is made after then the true intant of finding a family for a child is more authentic..as opposed to a child for a family.

Ther are scammer bmoms out there just as much as ther are baby hungry...baby at all costs no matter what..paps out there. With every story there is about bad situations coming from bad bmoms and badsearching adoptees there are just as many as unscrupulous baby stealers.

So, if those of us on this forum really want to see adoption done right we have to accept the truth that there are bad situaions in all facets of adoption and attempt to keep ourselves honest and reasonable...to continue to point out the bad stories of what ever side your on does NOT help the choildren that evryone pretends is the focus of adoption.

[browneyes0707]

First off, the article was so poorly written, even the seventeen year old journalism student in me cringes. I don't see how one couple's unfortunate experience could be evidence of a trend. You can't take the bad exceptions and hold it up as the rule. There are negative stories about birthmothers, expectant mothers, adoptive mothers, parenting mothers, grandmothers, god mothers... you get the idea. A few scammers do not make a trend.

Changing your mind regarding placement is not an indicator of a scammer. Look, adoption itself is a leap of faith. You can't go into it as a sure thing, and that goes for either side. For every PAP that goes into an adoption hoping and praying that the placement will go through and be finalized, there is an e-mom hoping and praying that their child will be raised in the environment that the PAP's promised they would provide, or that the agreement regarding post-placement contact be upheld. And unfortunately, there are honest people who are true in their intentions, and dishonest people who aren't honest. Not to be flippant or harsh about it, but it's not news. It's life.

I didn't take any financial support from my daughter's mother, aside from my medical, and yeah, she took me out for lunch after appointments, which I've read is actually frowned upon. (I was involved in a private adoption) I don't agree with PAP's paying anything more than the medical care, I think it sets up a scenario of obligation on both sides, a recipe for disaster. I cannot fathom someone dishing out the amount of support that Mama's examples received, that's absolutely ridiculous that someone would either expect, demand or offer that. It should simply just not be allowed or complied with.

The support that I most needed during my pregnancy was emotional. Had I had the support of the people around me initially, I'd have parented hands down. At 17, I was still dealing in Monopoly money as far as finances go. All the money and things in the world could not replace what I felt I couldn't give my child.

[JustPeachy]

That doesn't mean I think that emoms should sit there and say "show me the money" and accept all the expenses just because their state ALLOWS it. We all have a responsibility to do the right thing.

I couldn't agree more. I was told I could have my expenses paid for, but for one thing, I was working, and another, I had health insurance. I told the agency I didn't need financial assistance from the PAPs. Now, I could have lied and said I was not working, or working but not insured. Or even further embellished everything and said I was in need of maternity clothes and other things. I just couldn't imagine doing that.

I was not making a lot of money, but I was able to pay for my co-pays and such. I didn't even ask for reimbursement for those expenses. It just felt (to me) that if I took a penny from the PAPs, it would be like selling my baby or that I owed them my baby.

I don't understand why PAPs are even expected to pay for emom's expenses. Why not get the emom hooked up with state aid if need be? Then if she decides to parent, she can be all set up with whatever benefits she is eligible for, and if she decides to place, then she would no longer be eligible for whatever aid she was getting for her baby and the benefits would end there.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by JustPeachy

I don't understand why PAPs are even expected to pay for emom's expenses. Why not get the emom hooked up with state aid if need be? Then if she decides to parent, she can be all set up with whatever benefits she is eligible for, and if she decides to place, then she would no longer be eligible for whatever aid she was getting for her baby and the benefits would end there.

This sounds great in theory, but the sad truth is that in order to receive financial assistance from TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families), an expectant mother has to be at least six months along in her pregnancy. I didn't realize that until very recently when an emom from Colorado shared that with us on these forums. So I went and looked up the state laws in Colorado, and she was absolutely correct. There are a lot of people falling through the safety net right now, especially as states tighten up their eligibility requirements for various types of financial help. It's especially tough on the working poor...they often don't have enough money for extras like health care, yet they make too much to qualify for Medicaid. Here in the state of California, you only qualify for Medi-Cal (our version of Medicaid) if you earn less than $867 per month. It's absurd...you can't even rent a 1-bedroom apartment in this state for under $600 a month - our rents and mortgages are inflated to the max.

Peachy, I know what you mean when you say that if you had taken one penny, you would have felt like you were selling your baby. A departmental chairperson at one of the most prestigious universities in California offered to pay for my college years, all the way through graduate school, if I would let him and his wife adopt my baby. I had been in an experimental gifted program as a kid; he had met me when I started taking some college classes at 13 years of age. So when he heard thru the grapevine that I was pregnant at 16, he jumped at the chance to adopt my son. It totally grossed me out, and I distinctly remember getting sick to my stomach after he left the room. The main reason I chose a public adoption agency through the county I lived in was my assumption that they would be the toughest screeners out there as far as homestudies went. I wanted my son's parents to have to jump thru hoops, to withstand the scrutiny of prying questions. I wanted him to have a mom and dad who could truly parent him better than I could at the time.

I'll tell ya one thing -- that offer to pay for my college education in exchange for my baby turned me against private adoptions for many years. Personally, I still wish all adoptions were handled by public agencies, with no money exchanging hands. In my ideal public-adoption world, the only money that would be paid out would be to reimburse the state for prenatal care and delivery if necessary. My son's parents didn't have to pay one red cent to adopt him, and that's the way I wanted it...

[Dickons]

Originally Posted by crick

Personally I wish more paps would stop paying expenses. We are the more powerful "group" and if we stopped showing the money, then I think that would put a dent in the scammers ability to do this. As well as put a dent in the agencies who are not truly working on behalf of either party.

Just my opinion...I know a lot of people will disagree. that's okay!

Crick,

I agree with your statement but also want to point out a couple of things off topic but...

Adoptive parents are the more powerful group...and could make a stand on the sealing of records for adoptees once they reach the age of maturity, as well stating that the adoption agency must incorporate a mechanism for reporting of medical history that actually has a chance of being a useful tool (a small percentage of the money collected by the agency could be mandated to that arena).

Also, there are more than two parties in an adoption - the most imporant party is the child who is the one the agencies should be working on behalf of.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[crick]

Can't disagree with your point. If the discussion was on opening records then I'm sure that point would have been made too. Hard to cover everything the aparents can do on so many topics.

[MamaS]

Originally Posted by CalamityJane

On one hand, you have adoption professionals attracting pregnant women by promising them financial help. Just take a look at the ads on this site and others related to adoption!

On the other hand, you have adoption professionals telling hopeful adoptive parents that they have to pay up or they'll never have children. A bald face lie! They create these issues by making offers of financial support without even being asked!

They dangle dollar bills and unborn children in the faces of those who are most desperate and the only ones who can stop it are the ones who are in need of dollar bills or want a child, because the agencies are getting rich off the practice!

------

If anyone has personally witnessed the type of actions talked about in this thread and didn't report it to the authorities (the courts, the Department of Children and Families) they are part of the problem, not the solution. Buying a child is illegal in all 50 states and there are laws (if anyone cares to enforce them) that protect children from being traded for gas cards, gift cards and a years worth of free housing.

Calamity: What is "legal" is such a gray area, especially in adoption. That's why abuse thrives and lawyers are involved. Each of the cases I mentioned was handled by a lawyer (who is an officer of the court and presumably is following the law). But when you have something like this occur -- publicly and legally -- but morally oh-so-wrong, then what?

Adoption of baby should be a win-win situation for all - St. Petersburg Times

[Stillamom]

I particularly like the last sentence of the article:

"It's actually stealing from people," Miller said. "They steal from people and they play with your heart."

Hmmm.... sorta sounds like what happened to the birthmoms in the closed era.

[crick]

That last article makes me sick personally. I mean seriously?? "I'm the better person, have all these material items and I should win" "Mom shouldn't get to decide"?????

UGH!

[zxczxcasdasd]

That last article makes me sick personally. I mean seriously?? "I'm the better person, have all these material items and I should win" "Mom shouldn't get to decide"?????

I did at least appreciate the smack down she got in the response. However, it's beyond scary that this is the thought process to begin with- within a church no less! UGH is right!!!!

[crick]

Oh I'd love to give that woman a smack down myself! LOL! yes, I know...educate the ignorant and be kind and all that, but for some...no...a smack down is necessary.