[arkansas parent]

Me and my husband are wanting to adopt a child under 8yr old. We have a 10yr old daughter. We are concerned about some of the stuff we read about adopted children becoming violent. My question is for anyone who has had this happen to them. What age was the child when you adopted him/her? When did they start becoming violent? Did the adoption disrupt? Is it more common in boys or girls?

[lucyjoy]

My children who had issues with violence were adopted at ages 8 and 9. They are now 17 and 18. 2 of the 3 remained at home, one lives in a transitional living facility. Our state does not allow disruption according to the attornies I've spoken with but does pay for out of home treatment. I'm glad I didn't have to disrupt. My children are boys but I know many parents with violent girls as well.

I would suggest you research attachment and bonding.
When looking at profiles, look for information on the number of moves, disrupted placements, why the child was moved and if you can talk to former parents, do.
Words like "energetic" can mean out of control and the word "charming" often redflags attachment.

[Linny]

We have adopted infants and older children. Four have been infants, three were older child. The older children arrived at these ages:
Six years...almost seven; six years and just turned three.
The most violent was the first one who was almost seven. Had the state been honest and disclosed all that they were supposed to have, we would have known that he was far over our heads...and truly needed to be placed in a home with NO other children.
This child lived in our home for almost four years, and tried to hurt/kill other children. He will be aging out in residential soon, and his behaviors are no more empathetic than they were 11yrs ago. Still, at 18, he can literally sign himself out and walk the streets, until the law becomes involved.
The biggest shock to us, was the one that was six when he came. He had had a very traumatic past as a very, very young child. But, he had had intensive treatment (counseling) previous to being even known to us. (Two years). He continued w/ counseling throughout the seven years he was ours....but never for anything sexual.
As if he literally snapped, he decided to become the abuser and was arrested for sexual abuse/assault. He too is in residential, and we were able to sign him back over to the state---because even THEY realized how dangerous he was to have in a home with younger children. Even though this was incredibly sad.....I thank God that we were able to dissolve his adoption, as we have little faith that he is remorseful or cares to change.
The 'just turned three year old'.....continues to have attachment problems, that are better handled living with relatives. This is something we would never have planned, but for the safety of all, it is the best solution. He will soon become legally adopted by them, at our request.....and the 'okay' from him.

We would never, ever adopt older children again. Not even toddlers.

Lucy is absolutely correct in the need to do your homework and realize that the state has a way of 'making light' of serious situations, scenarios that the child has been involved with. There is a lot more to adopting an older child that the classes the state offers. Education is the key, and realizing that parenting these children is NOT the same as parenting 'normal' kids. I'm sure there are exceptions, but for those of us who have BTDT......life with these kids is anything BUT normal.

As for the son in residential (that is aging out)......he is still legally ours; though he has little to no attachment to us----this regardless of the intensive attachment therapy and counseling we had with him. Many RAD (reactive attachment disorder) kids NEVER heal. In fact, I'd go so far as to state--IMO--- that most do not heal...if they are older than toddlers.

Please make sure that you are aware of each and every child you are interested in. Visit a support group of parents who have adopted older children; work within a residential home or a school for behavioral disordered kids, talk at length with parents who have done this to understand and realize the full scope of what it is, what it takes. It is tough parenting, to say the least, and not for the faint of heart.

My best to you....

Sincerely,

Linny

[DianeS]

My friend has been through this. She fostered a little girl off and on from the time the girl was 2 until she was 6. The state kept returning her to her birth family.

The state removed her one last time at age 6, and terminated the family's rights. My friend adopted her.

Within a year the child had become violent. Her past had been too unstable for her RAD to show itself - she didn't FEEL she had a primary caregiver until after she'd been adopted and lived with the same family for a solid year. Then all hell broke loose.

By age 8 she was in RTC. Not because of anything she DID, but because of what she PLANNED. She had told a younger sibling in the family an entire, complete, filled out and detailed plan of how she planned to kill the parents. The younger sibling broke down weeks afterward and confessed to the parents. The plan was realistic. It would have probably worked, so the parents moved her out of the home to the RTC.

A few months later, she blew her placement at the RTC. She now lives with a different family who specializes in children like her. She's the youngest, so there are fewer people she can hurt, etc. The family may adopt her, she's still honeymooning so it's not a done deal, everyone knows to wait until they see the worst. But this child's honeymoon is known to last longer than a year, perhaps longer now.

My friend's family did everything right. They knew the child, they'd had her close to half her life. They knew her temperment, they knew her behavior. She started the right kinds of counseling right away. When behaviors escalated, so did the counseling and parenting techniques. It SHOULD have worked. But the child didn't choose to work, and in attachment the child has to cooperate or it won't work. The ball is in the child's court, the child can make it work or make it fail. In this case, the child chose to make it fail.

Attachment and proper behaviors can NOT be forced on a child. The child must cooperate. And that is what makes the difference.

[arkansas parent]

linny
Did you adopt the infants from foster care? We were told that there may be a chance of us getting an infant who was exposed to drugs. We know a lot of the problems with these babies dont show untill they are older. That is why we are wanting an older child. We are still waiting to get our homestudy done. On all of the papers we had to fill out we made it VERY clear that we would not accept a child that might hurt our daughter or our pets. Do you think that will help? What are some questions we should ask before we accept a child? I have read almost every post on this website to get information about older child adoption. A lot of what I have read has been negative. I am scared, but we still plan on adopting.

[Linny]

The infants that we adopted were not from the foster care system. However, rest assured that while ANY baby can have problems as they grow, the difference is that many of the problems a drug exposed infant may have, are those that can be overcome or at the very least, lessened....by parents who are prepared ahead of time.

Therein lies the difference, you see. If you know that your baby has been exposed to a certain drug/s.....then there are specific therapies and helps that can be applied to ward off more problems. This isn't to say that the child might forever have some impulse problems, some LD (learning disabilities).....but IMO, these PALE in comparison to reactive attachment disorder!!! And, I daresay that most of the children in the system, suffer from some level of attachment disorder.
FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome......or any fetal alcohol effects) can be tough to deal with too; but RAD is a different animal altogether.

IMO, the state sytems are nothing to be trusted for the most part. We did just as you plan: Telling them that we didn't want any children who could be a threat to our other kids (who were older than the kids we brought home), and we didn't want children who had had problems handling animals (we live on a farm and we're big animal lovers).
None of this mattered one bit.

The problem is that the baby or young child---who is taken from the bio family early on...is too often allowed to go back to the bios (as the poster after my post spoke of). You cannot put a baby or young child in one home for awhile, and then another home---over and over again, without there being some confusion, to say the least. Add on top of this, parents who are into doing their own thing.......either through drugs, abuse, neglect. Any or all of these.
Add in the fact that the child learns not to trust, to love, to be cared for...and you have the foundation of RAD, attachment disorders, and other issues that are often too late to battle when the child FINALLY becomes adoptable!

Early intervention is the key.....and this is why someone might adopt an infant with a ton of drug exposure issues---yet, the child grows up with little to no effects. The parents were aware, the early intervention in the form of therapies, attachment parenting and such were put in place...and the child is able to 'become normal'. (Believe me, I've seen this more than once.)

I'm biased, I know. Our older child adoptions have been nothing short of nightmares. When we refused to bring the sexually offending son into our home, the system threatened to charge us with abandonment and/or nelgect for doing so. They thought we should just live with alarms and buzzers throughout the home to assure he wouldn't perp on the children in our home. There was no way. And, in the end, the system realized what they were dealing with; and our family would split if need be---just to keep the other children safe. They allowed us to sign him back over...and we were not charged with anything.

As for the son that's still adopted and aging out in residential----The system thought we were horrible when we took the situation in our own hands by gathering info from all of the psychiatrists/psychologists and mental hospitals to prove how narssistic and un-empathetic he really was. We were able to get a state grant to pay for his residential housing, because he is so mentally ill. It took incredibe intestinal fortitude to do this....and listening to a lot of uneducated system people tell us that 'no son of ours would grow up in residential'!
But...when we would ask these same people, "Okay...what would YOU do if your child was trying to kill your younger children?"
They NEVER would reply to this, because the answer is obvious...and I daresay, any other good parent would do the same.
We honestly have come full circle in our beliefs with older child adoptions. We used to be the 'poster family' for this; but have learned our lessons hard and well.
As much as we argued this for months and months...saying that 'someone needed to have a home for these kids!' We now realize that some children are just too damaged to live in a traditional home. Sad fact, but true.
The truly sad part, is that the system continues to do little to nothing about it. These kinds of children continue to populate the foster care system; and try as they might, foster and adoptive parents can do little about it.
But....when it comes to people wanting to adopt older children...the system will cover up a lot of issues. They will present some of these kids in such a way it really borders 'fraudulence'. Their hope is that good parents will eventually bring the child into some sort of 'normal existence'. The fact is, not only is a family opening themselves up to hurt, but also the threat of hurt to their other children.
As long as a family knows this---going in-----they can probably handle it. As for our family, we thought we were 'done' with infants....we were older. We thought we should open our home and hearts to older children who were often overlooked; and justified (just like you) that even infants could have problems as they grew up.

Older child adoption often requires the family to take on a different role than being the parent. You're very often the counselor, police, guard. I used to tell the older kids, "I just wish I could be your mom sometimes, and not always your counselor!" They didn't want a mom. They didn't want a family.
They had no idea what they wanted; because they'd never had it before...and the times of knowing what this was like in their young lives...was over.

I have had other posters who have said, "But this isn't the case with our child!" And, I know there have to be some success stories out there...surely there are. But, I've also seen my share of people spout off about their success story...when they've only had their child for a couple of years or less. Hardly enough time to judge those of us who have done it for years.
And, I'll also say that our story is not unusual. We know many parents who have been in the same boat as we, and some of their stories are worse.
But, when you say that you are wanting to adopt an older child...because you'll be aware of the problems more so than with an infant------not usually. Many of these kids are cunning and do very well to cover up their insecurities and problems. Many are incredibly manipulative. But, as the one poster has said, the problem wasn't apparent until over one year had passed. This is not unusual, believe me.

Most Sincerely,

Linny

[arkansas parent]

linny
My husband would rather adopt a baby or toddler. I was the one wanting a child closer to my daughters age. I am now very scared it wont work. I have just started reading about babies born exsposed to drugs. My other concern about a baby is that we was told it would be a legal risk.After years of infertily I cant imagine lossing a baby. Do you think a child adopted at age 3 or younger would work better?

Thanks for all your advice! I have a lot of thinking to do.

[ChristieS]

Hi arkansas parent,

I can certainly understand your fears. We also went through years of infertility, three failed pregnancies, adopted a child at birth and, as is often the case, were unaware of which/what/when drugs were taken prenatally. Further, my son is now four and the adoption is STILL being contested. We have been on an emotional roller-coaster-nightmare for years.

My son does exhibit some symptoms of possible drug and alcohol abuse by the bmother during pregnancy - but we work very hard with him and he is a special, precious, sweet child.

These are chances you take when you adopt - rather, try to adopt - an infant. There are many sad stories on the forum I am usually on ("Failed and Contested Adoptions" under "Before Adoption"). I came to the disupted adoption board because where do you fit when you have a final adoption but a motion for reversal?

You may want to take into consideration a placement agency that specializes in "low-risk" adoptions - those where a TPR has already been done. Also, many times there is simply no way to know of possible drug or alcohol abuse by the pbmother.

I agree with Linny that you need to know what you are getting into and gain as much information as possible. Having counseled RAD children, and now teaching on the subject, attachment issues are most readily created between the ages of 0 and 3. That is not to say that older children can not develop attachment disorders, only that most, and the most serious attachment disorders, develop from birth to three years of age.

While children who were exposed prenatally to drugs or alcohol can have special issues - and some which will not show for a while (up to 6 or 7 years old) - they can be worked with in a loving and stable environment for minimum impact. Children with attachment disorders are VERY different. A toddler can most certainly have an attachment disorder.

That being said, I know the pain of infertility and the deep pain of wanting a child. I also know what it feels like to have that child constantly threatened to be taken away. You have to decide what is right for you and your family - and I'm glad you are looking into all possibilities.

While many infant adoptions go smoothly, you always take a chance that the adoption will fail, or you could spend every penny you can make, borrow, and beg to keep your child. In the end, everything runs a risk. If I could go back and do it over again I would definitely adopt an infant (again) but under different circumstances. Of course, everything in life contains a risk and you have to decide for yourself what is right for you and your family.

I am praying for you that you will be able to adopt the child that is meant to be yours, and that the process is a gentle one.

Blessings,
Christie

[ajjhmf]

Arkansas parent,

If you want to get some more info on older child and special needs adoption, I would recommend coming over to the Special Needs Adoption board. On a disruption board you wil only hear the bad side. There are positive and successful stories as well. Also, the people on that board can help you with what to look for in an older child placement. Yes, there are always risks, but nothing in parenting is a guarantee. I just suggest looking at all sides before making your decision.

Blessings,
Jenny

[joskids]

I have raised 4 birthchildren, adopted 4 children, the oldest was almost 2 when adopted. We also have done foster care for older children and infants and had two older girls that came to us at ages 8 and 11 but we had to let them go back (to foster care) because although we felt we were well experienced and had done our homework, things came out that neither the agency, previous foster parents or we were aware of. EVERYONE told me not to do it -- that they could harm our younger children. In all the meetings with these girls, I was convinced (my husband not so convinced as I was) that it was wrong to assume that NO OLDER CHILD could be successfully adopted into a family with other children. In this case, I was wrong. As vigilant as I was, things did happen that were serious enough to the well-being of our younger children that we had to say no. I still hurt and ache for them and pray for them every day. I would never tell anyone NOT to adopt an older child. I'm just relating our experience to you. Two of our adopted children were drug-exposed, one quite heavily. They are both beautiful, bright, well-behaved children. Again, NOTHING is certain. I did a lot of research on drug exposure before we decided to adopt these children but just knew in our hearts they belonged with us. Yes, they will likely have learning issues as they continue in school. They are 8 and 9 at this time. But the teachers, their peers, everyone loves them. So, again, just my experiences that I'm sharing with you. Do a lot of soul-searching because an adoption is truly forever -- if not in your home, certainly in your heart. Unfortunately, sometimes we cannot undo what has been done to these children before they came to us. It is very sad to me, but also very true.

Josie

[angelkisses0102]

There are simply no guarantees in any adoption...we have done 2 international infant adoptions. DD was 10 months old and lived in horrific conditions in a hospital in Russia. She came home over 4 years ago and we have never had an issue regarding her attachment and bonding. I fully expected to but never did. She was an easy baby and is now a sweet, smart and loving 5 year old...

DS was just 8 months old...from a great situation (even though it was an orphanage...it was more like a daycare situation...just 24/7) in Russia...we did everything right, there were zero red flags, had his info reviewed, blah, blah blah. Here we are 2.5 years later still trying to heal the damage of his first 8 months of life. His birthfamily tried to parent but simply couldn't since he was child #4 and their 3rd baby in 3 years...he went to the great orphanage and then us...no abuse, no neglect...

There are many things you can do to lower your risk...but it always a leap of faith. Good luck.

[arkansas parent]

joskids
Where all of the children you adopted from foster care? We have been doing a lot of research on drug exposed children. We have decided that is something we will accept. We have also lowered the age of child we would like to adopt to 6yrs or younger.

[Aluarose]

My husband and I were told by our agency that we had to be open to up to age 3.

We are adopting internationally (from Liberia)

I thought that attachment disorder might be a "possibility" in a child up to age 3, but now I am thinking it is "likely" rather than "possible"

I think I will tell them if we can't get a child under 12 months old, we will pass.

[arkansas parent]

Update:
Our son was placed with us(Nov16 06) when he was almost 4yr. His adoption will be finial in a couple weeks. He is VERY attached to us (therapist agrees). I think it is important to make sure the child is a good fit with your family, age is not as important. Our son is just like us. Some people think we adopted him from birth since he has the same likes/dislikes we do.
Maybe we just got lucky or maybe we will have problems in the future. I don't know ,but I do know adopting T is the best thing we have ever done.

[Linny]

Congratulations to you and your family!!!!!! I'm glad things are working well, and I hope everything continues to go well for all of you!!!

Sincerely,

Linny