[echaos]

I read this interesting article in a Canadian National parenting magazine this morning.

2 lines:

“what possible justification is there?”

and

"If there were a similar study showing that the occasional well-timed punch to the upper arm of an annoying neighbour caused no lasting harm, I would not say, “Oh well then, let’s make it legal for adults to hit each other for the purpose of correction.” "

really got me thinking. I’m interested to discuss other parents outlook on the subject.





The Real Spanking Debate

“Do you have to hit kids to raise them properly? Because if you don’t, what possible justification is there?”
By John Hoffman

As I watched the intense and impassioned debate about same-sex marriage unfold over the past several months, I couldn’t help but draw parallels between that discussion and the one we need to have about spanking. Both issues touch on deeply held religious and cultural beliefs. Both challenge the societal mindset to make a substantial shift. Both issues were the subject of recent legislation. Bet you didn’t know there was a bill on the table to outlaw corporal punishment; that’s probably because it was introduced in the Senate by senator Céline Hervieux-Payette. (At press time, the Senate bill appeared to have a better chance of surviving spring’s electoral storm watch, with senators considering a measure that would see debate resume after an election.)

I hope that bill makes it to the lower house. There it might generate the kind of public discussion we really need on spanking and corporal punishment.
I’m talking about a debate like the one we’ve just seen on gay rights and the definition of marriage. Sure, it’s been divisive and angry at times. But many people have become involved and they’ve dissected every nuance.
By contrast, the arguments tend to be narrow when the subject is Section 43 of the Criminal Code. That’s the part that sanctions spanking by providing a defence to assault for the purpose of correcting a child. Media coverage generally features a lot of back-and-forth gainsaying between pundits on either side about whether such legislation would criminalize parents (“Would!” “Wouldn’t!”) and whether spanking harms children (“Does!” “Doesn’t!”).

Yes, we should argue those points — although, for me, the “does spanking harm children?” debate is irrelevant. You could show me an impeccable study that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that a good and proper mild spanking (largely mythical, anyway) doesn’t harm kids, and I’d still say, so what? If there were a similar study showing that the occasional well-timed punch to the upper arm of an annoying neighbour caused no lasting harm, I would not say, “Oh well then, let’s make it legal for adults to hit each other for the purpose of correction.”

We need an in-depth examination of the fears that — without the protection of Section 43 — good parents may be hauled into court or have their kids taken away because they forcibly removed their child from the dinner table. I don’t believe that for a minute, but then, my opinion isn’t much to go on, is it? We need to get into the corners of this issue. What powers and standards of practice should police and child protection workers have? How can we ensure parents will be free from unwarranted harassment by the occasional witless rule follower?

I also hope we can finally get down to the real issue. Do you have to hit kids — or at least have that option — to raise them properly? Because if you don’t, what possible justification is there?

A big pro-spanking argument has always been: “Of course, we don’t want parents to beat on their kids, but what if a child [take your pick] runs into the street, tells a bald-faced lie, displays in-your-face defiance?”

It seems to me the vast number of unspanked good kids and young adults walking around provides lots of de facto evidence that you don’t need to whack ’em to raise ’em right. A recent Statistics Canada study provided some empirical support: It showed a correlation between punitive parenting, including spanking and yelling, and aggressive child behaviour.

This study holds two important lessons, although it does not prove that spanking harms children, as some observers have claimed. One lesson is that many kids can learn to behave when their parents do not rely on punishment (including spanking) as a main discipline tool. The other is that even when children’s behaviour is difficult, harsher punishment is not the magic fix; when parents became more punitive, kids tended to be more aggressive. So, if spanking isn’t necessary, and it doesn’t help kids behave, what do we need it for? When the Section 43 debate starts in earnest, let’s talk about that.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Im an anti-spanker. I think there are times that you need to physically restrain, move, reposition a child... lol. But NOT hit them. I think if you start with something young, stay consistant, ALWAYS follow through... then spanking is a non-issue.

Just because you can, or someone did it to you is not an excuse for me. It may not cause harm to a "majority" of children... but you dont know until later if YOUR child is in that group or not. Why take the chance? "Because you can?" I am with the.. its illegal to hit an adult who CAN fight back... why is it ok to hit a child who cant??

Great article!

PS... about running in the street... I instilled that by letting her know if she was hit by a car she would be splattered all over the road.. possibly dead... ruin someones car.. and a whole lot of people would have to clean up the mess she caused.... so be respectful of everyone and do what you are supposed to... (oh yeah.. and it would also hurt! lol)

Before she was old enough to understand I simply prevented her from running in the street.

I wonder though... if a child runs in the street and DOES get hit by a car... does he or she still get spanked? Or would it be seen that the car already taught them the lesson?? And if the kid is hit by the car.. dont we all look at the parents and say... why was your kid in the middle of the street...? I know you cant watch them EVERY minute... but if in that minute they get into that kind of a situation.. isnt it the PARENT's responsibility not the childs? The child just then got punished for the parent not watching them.. but the parent didnt get punished....

*sigh* I think this is an endless battle though...

[leaabc123]

All spanking does is teach a child it is okay to hit others to make them behave in a way that you want them too.

When a child who is spanked goes to school and gets into a fight, what do you say to them? Hitting another person is wrong? or do you spank them for fighting, therby sending very mixed messages.

[Big Dreamer]

I am VERY Against SPANKING...the other day we took our daughter for her two year check up, the pediatrician made a point to inform us that it was ok to spank.

My husband clearly said Maria does not believe in spanking for personal reasons it was like the pedi didn’t hear him she continued to describe how it was ok to hit with a wooden spoon or a spatula.

I again expressed that I did not agree with spanking and felt that we used consequences with removal of TV privileges or we put our daughters high heels on time out (trust me this works).

Non the less she continued HER OPNINION I finally said “How would you feel every time you did something wrong and your kids or husband came after you with a spoon or spatula?” Her response was “if it saves my life then I would be ok with it.”

I reminded her that MY child was two and as of yet had done NOTHING to warrant being hit…my daughter trusts me to love and honor her. I really believe that for some people once you hit it will get easier to hit as time progresses.

I have gotten upset and hit myself, after leaving a nice mark on my own thigh I was thankful that I didn’t lay my hand on my child.

After seeing the pedi I was so upset that I cried when I got home it was as if she was giving my 300 lb LINE BACKER husband permission to hit my child. I was sooo stressed I started throwing up. After I composed myself my hubby and I spoke and he understands that hitting is still off limits.

I remember my mother saying “I hit you because I love you…” I often replied… “please don’t love me so much”.

I agree with the other poster if we tell our child NOT to hit then we hit them what are we teaching? What kind of message are we sending?

What happened to LOVE AND HONOR our Children?

My stomach is in knots and I am feeling really tense. Thanks for posting this and letting me express MY OPINION.

My daughter is two and is very laid back maybe things would be different if she was unruly and out of control but she's not. She doesn’t scream for things at the grocery store or while we are shopping, she doesn’t hit very often and if she does she goes to the TIME OUT MAT she understands Stop and Don’t.

The great thing about this board is we that we can agree to disagree. Now that I have expressed myself maybe I can let this anger and frustration go. Perhaps that will come when I find my NEW pediatrician.

By the way…I am not a screamer either…I grew up with one, the screaming never resolved anything.

I lived…I learned, there for I love and discipline differently then the way that I was raised.

Hugs to all,
Maria

PSS: Look at that beautiful face in the picture above Star is a Ray of Light and Sunshine. I believe that spanking would take the sparkle out of her eyes and dampen her Spirit...

[echaos]

I would report your doctor!!!! While it may be his "opinion" he should not be advocating to other parents to hit their children with spoons or spatulas. Most CAS's would consider this abuse!!! There is a HUGE difference between spanking and using an object to hit a childe. While I personally don't spank, I can respect other peoples choices to do so... IF..... it is done in a maner that does not cross the line to abuse.

Please find another doctor if you can.

I'm so sorry that you had such a horrible experience. Give Star a big hug!!

[NDN]

Originally Posted by Big Dreamer

...we put our daughters high heels on time out (trust me this works).

LOL...I thought I was the only one that put my kids' stuff in time out....I've even sent their invisible friend to time out...but on to the real issue.

I've waffled back & forth on this issue. Personally, I do not spank my kids. I grew up with a wonderful example of how NOT to punish....so I wouldn't know how to effectively use spanking as a punishment if I wanted to. I try to focus on teaching and natural consequences, but do feel that parents do need to manufacture consequences (both negative and positive) at times. I would also like to say that, I do not believe that yelling (the agressive or mean spirited yelling, as opposed to simply raising your voice) is not an acceptable alternative to spanking.

Originally Posted by echaos

I would report your doctor!!!! While it may be his "opinion" he should not be advocating to other parents to hit their children with spoons or spatulas. Most CAS's would consider this abuse!!! There is a HUGE difference between spanking and using an object to hit a childe. While I personally don't spank, I can respect other peoples choices to do so... IF..... it is done in a maner that does not cross the line to abuse.

I just wanted to comment on this one by explaining why some advocate the use of a spoon/spatula rather than a hand. The theory is that, by using a neutral object, the child will not develope fear and distrust that can result if they come to see the parent's hands as a source of inflicted pain.

Take that for what it's worth...but that is the reason they say use an object.

[parentingmagic]

I never thought of putting the invisible friend in time out. I love it. Daughters yes, belongings yes, invisible friends would have come in handy a time or two.

My oldest daughter is doing her doctorate work at Yale, number two just graduated from music college. My third daughter has just been accepted to ASU. My children have become the ones all parents dream of and pray they can somehow raise. I have never laid a hand on my children. I made up for that with an overabundance of holding, hugging and kissing.

My niece was telling me the other day, during Thanksgiving dinner, that she had no control over her 6 year old son. I was sitting next to one of my daughters at the time. I told my niece that she needed to establish a list of consequences and then be prepared to follow through when needed. I also told her my secret. I would never discipline my children in front of other people. Instead I would remove them from the room so we could have a talk. I would get down on my knee, eye to eye with my little girl. I would take their hands and put them on their cheeks, with mine over top, keeping their hands in place and their eyes looking right into mine. I would explain that they were much to good of children to be behaiving like this. I explained exactly what would happen if the action did not change. I then let the child decide if we should move to the consequence or go back to the room we came from. This is nose to nose mind you, the child agrees to change her behaivor.

The daughter sitting beside me at the time said she still remembers the day it happened to her. "It only happened once, it just really scared me, he was so serious. After that all he had to say was "Sabrina, do we need to go have a talk" none of us ever wanted to go have a talk with dad".

I remember doing this once or twice with each daughter. After that parenting was a breeze. They just never wanted to be that close to my eyes when I was not happy with them.

Spanking a child has never, nor will it ever, make sense with me. Good luck with the kids all of you.

[Big Dreamer]

Just a note to say HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Star is doing well. We potty trained in three days...yippiee

my baby is growing up!

ParentingMagic thanks for sharing your journey. Your methods obviously worked. NO BROKEN SPIRITS in your HOME! I LOVE IT!

Ladies...see what we have to look forward to

I do like the hands on cheek and nose to nose with the choices I am sure that WILL come in handy.

I often ask Star "is that setting a very good example?" When she says no then I ask her to show me what a good example would look like then we erase the other one.

When she shows me the "good example" we laugh, hug, then pull out our imaginary erasers and erase the "not so nice one". For me it reinforces leaving a positive in place of a negative.

Happy Parenting!

Oh...here are a few pics of Star...

Maria

[sunnyandi13]

I've joined this discussion a little late, and I hope that my opinion may add a different perspective to this debate...

Do any of you remember being spanked as a child? How did it make you feel? Did it get the message across that you did something bad or that you were bad and needed to be punished? Did you grow up to accept being "hit" or "punished" by other people?

I only ask these questions, because in my opinion they are the truest indicator of what spanking will and wonn't do...

My parents were both believers in corporal punishment. I can tell you each and every time I got a spanking as a child - why? Because when my mother started spanking, she didn't stop until she wasn't mad anymore. I can remember one time vividly, we were to attend a festival / parade that weekend and I was asked to run something over to a neighbor's house (I was about six at the time). This neighbor had a habit of giving kids treats all the time and this time, since everyone was in a hurry, she "forgot", so I asked her for some candy... when I got home with the candy, my mother asked if I had "begged" for it. I hadn't "begged" in my child's mind, so I answered, "no". After the neighbor called my mother (a few minutes later) to thank her for the item, my mother repeated the question to her. The neighbor stated "no, she didn't beg, she just reminded me that I forgot" - to the neighbor it was a "cute" thing.

The logical consequence, if my mother had really wanted to reinforce not asking for food or treats, would have been for me to miss the festival. But instead, she was angry that she would miss it too and thus chose to spank instead. Spankings in my house were conducted, not with open hand or even belt, but with an old wooden ping-pong paddle with holes drilled in it - on bare skin, not clothing. I can remember loosing count after 15 whacks with that d*mn paddle... I couldn't sit at all that day and was even sore walking for a couple of days after that.

Now-a-days, I know that would be considered child abuse, but my mother honestly thought she was being a good parent by teaching me about punishment, rather than consequences.

So, I would ask those of you who are debating this, think of how you felt as a child, if/when you were spanked or how you would feel as an adult if someone proposed to physically punish you instead of allowing the natural, logical consequences to come about?

I hope not to get flamed over this, and I only tell you this deeply personal story as I was one of those kids who grew up "spanked", hating every minute of it and learning some "incorrect" lessons - like it's okay if your first husband almost killed you with physical abuse, because he did it "out of love".

Just another person's perspective... food for thought?

[manni28]

My sister and I were spanked-but not often. We learned our lessons. I believe sometime a spanking is needed, AFTER a firm warning is given. For example, a child having a FIT in the mall or elsewhere in public or being disrespectful to an adult. I may get flamed for this but: I believe that’s what wrong with some of today's children-everybody is a afraid of being accused of corporal punishment and some parents want to be their child's friend; when their not, their the parents!

[qs mom]

This was the premise of last night's episode of Reba.

I confesss I've spanked my son. And only when he does something dangerous.

My son isn't your 'normal' kid. The natural consquence of something dangerous is death. I'm not willing to accept that consequence.

To tell him what will happen if he runs into the street, to explain it to him, means nothing to him. He doesn't understand it. He can't wrap his brain around it, until he sees it happen. That's just the way his brain processes. He can't comprehend the 'what if' or 'imagine if'.

But he does know that if he goes into the street, doesn't hold my hand in a parking lot, strays from me in a store, he'll have a crack on the butt and that he can comprhend. He doesn't want that.

My son sent 2 years in a crib in an orphanage. He was never saw a car until he was 3 years old. He is now 5. He still doesn't have a full grasp on what danger is. He's learning though.

I certainly don't advocate beating your children. Nor do I advocate spanking your child because they irritate you. But, I can tell you, if I didn't spank my son the few times that I have, he most likley wouldn't be alive, he'd have been plowed over in a parking lot.

[heartened]

For me the debate is simple -

If you lay a hand on an adult in this manner, you will be arrested for assault. If you use an implement, they call it a weapon and the prison time is longer.

In other words,for me, there is no debate. As a society we have agreed that hitting is not ok. In most states, you can't legally engage in consensual sexual sadomasochistic behavior between adults. Only Illinois recognizes consent as a defense for "assault" when two adults consent to engage in a sadomasochistic relationship with each other.

Yet we allow parents to hit their children.

And with all due respect, q's mom, would you consent to my hitting you every time you drive over the speed limit? Or every time you forget a turn signal? How about if your brake light is out? Those are all "dangerous" actions which might lead to the death of you or another. If I see you engage in this dangerous behavior, am I permitted to discipline you physically?

I just don't buy it, I'm sorry.

We don't allow adults to strike one another even though their strength is mostly evenly matched to our own. But we'll hit a defenseless child and call it discipline? We're what, ten times stronger than they are? And this is supposed to be ok?

No way, no how.

I have a former friend who used to spank her child. She was enraged one day when the child she'd spanked for 6 years turned around and spanked her back. What did she expect? She'd taught him that it is ok to spank to get your point across.

I spanked my oldest son once when he went for the stove. I broke his heart and mine that day. Never again. He doesn't even remember it, he was too young. But I've never forgotten and I doubt I ever will. The look of sadness and disappointment in ME on HIS young face still haunts me.

[Nicole28]

I was spanked as a child - probably until I reached elementary school, but I can't remember. I know I was spanked, but I honestly don't remember it very well. That being said, it obviously wasn't a traumatizing experience for me. However, "swat" is probably a more fitting description of what my parent's did when I was in trouble - it never hurt (I do remember that much) and I really don't think it deterred me from misbehaving, haha. I was a crazy kid.

I don't think I'll spank my children. I just don't see a point. I feel like the reason someone would spank is to instill fear into a child, and even when I'm disciplining my child I don't want to scare or intimidate them, you know? I'm a huge fan of "Super Nanny," and I think her ideas are so much more useful and appropriate than any kind of corporal punishment - using a "Naughty Spot" technique, the time outs, warnings, etc.

Anyway, my point was that spanking didn't really leave a lasting negative impression of any kind. I wouldn't do it to my kids, but I guess when I was growing up people had different attitudes.

[qs mom]

I knew I would be crucified. That's fine.

But, apparently the section stating that my son doesn't understand/can't comprehend 'being splattered across the pavement'. Telling him means nothing. I could talk until I'm blue in the face, same result - nothing.

I UNDERSTAND danger - speeding, running a redlight. I UNDERSTAND the consequences. Paying a huge fine, increased insurance and possibly injurying someone are the consequences, I understand, I don't do those things, because I DO understand. HE DOES NOT.

My child cannot comprehend understand anything unless he experiences it. A swat/crack on the butt, he understands. He doesn't want it to happen again. He doesn't do the things that will get him a spank. Yes, A SPANK. Not several spanks, not a beating. I actually cannot recall the last time I spanked him.

Don't touch the stove - it's hot. He didn't get it. Burned his fingers.

Don't eat dog food - it will make you sick. He didn't get it - ate it. Threw up.

Don't lick the dog - she may bite you. He didn't get it - licked the dog - got lucky on that one.

Use walking feet in the house - you'll get hurt - 5 stitches.

I'd rather give him a swat and make him afraid to walk into the parking lot, than have him run out and be killed. Or hope we 'get lucky' like we did licking the dog.

If he hates me because I spanked him a couple of times when he was 3 or 4, well, that's life. He'll be thankful he's alive, because I know that he wouldn't have made it this far, if I hadn't spanked him for running into a parking lot.

Now he knows. He doesn't get spanked.

I've never beat my son. I've never spanked him more that 1 swat. I've never spanked him out of anger. I can tell you, I have never injured my son.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[bjhv5]

Q,

I know I am late reading this but I agree with you! I swatted my bio children on the bottom or on the back of the hand when they were smaller and no it was not for every little thing it was after doing other form like possitive reinforcements or time outs.I will not let my child get burnt because they touch fire or something hot.I will not give into a tantrum in the store and remove them dissrupt whta I need to do( I also will not go during what should be nap time or bed time so I do not set us up for a fit).
When my children were smaller 2-3 yo I could take them to any home and not worry about them touching things that were not child safe because they knew it was not thiers to touch.And it came from a small tap on the back of the hand,I did not put up breakables they learned not to touch.
People confuse spanking with beating and that is where the problem . Now when my sons mental status changed due to his illness we did not spank any more nor did we do time outs or any other form of dissipline as it would not work he could no longer understand right from wrong,there are excptions to almost anything.
I do no think we should judge another parent for their way of teaching thier child as long as it dosent go into abuse or neglect(yes by not punishing your child you harm them as well and I do not mean by not spanking I mean the child who nevers hears no or has no limits)
but all this just my thought