[nancynic]

Hi ~

There are some important differences between discipline (which means to teach) and punishment (which is based on power).

Punishment - an expression of personal authority, based on retribution or revenge. It is arbitrary, imposed on children, does not leave any options open, reinforces feelings of failure and is based on anger. Although punishment may stop unwanted behavior in the short term, it does not stop unwanted behavior in the long term.

Discipline is based on logical and natural consequences and is concerned with the present. Options are kept open so children can choose to improve behavior and gain self control. Discipline is an active teaching process which involves communication, it is friend and maintains involvement.

Let's start of list of behaviors and discuss how to discipline the child for the behavior rather than punishing the child.

Nancy

[jackandjill]

I am interested to think what adoptive parents think. I am a friend of an adopted child, I just have been observing. What do you think about locking a small adopted child in their bedroom for 4.5 hours at one time during the course of one day? The child tried to jumped out of the window and had wet pants in the bedroom. The child was screaming out the window "Save Me Please" this has happened on more than one occasion that this child has been asked to be saved from her bedroom. I am looking for some input after asking the adoptive mother, she stated that the child is being violent and doesn't know how to deal with it and knows the child is trying to jump out the window and has wet pants. I have spent many hours with this child and this child in my opinion does not have any problems other than excessive energy and is wonderful when visiting. Just looking for some advise. Thanks.

[nancynic]

Hi ~

No matter what behavior the child is exhibiting, being locked in a room is not the way to handle it.

The situation you describe is a situation of abuse and neglect and should be reported to the authorities. You can report the situation anonymously if you chose.

Nancy

[jackandjill]

Has anyone with an adopted child heard of the strong sit or making the child mad therapy? I have read the purple book about by Thomas and it seems its only written by a parent of foster children which are older is that true? Some of the methods seem very strange to myself and others. Any comments.

[lucyjoy]

Yes. The child you are describing likely has Reactive Attachment Disorder. Strong sitting is a form of meditation that helps a traumatized child refocus so they are able to think more clearly.
Make you mad is not an accurate term. These children bottle a great deal of rage and the therapy allows them a safe way to deal with the rage from the abuse they have suffered. Nancy Thomas has both birth, foster, and adopted children and is a fantastic theraputic parent and her techniques are used around the world. Likely, the child would appear normal and a victim to you as she wants to make her parents appear to be the problem. It's called triagulation and when a child does it successfully, they get sicker instead of better. YOu might wish to look at www.radzebra.org www.radkids.com www.attach.com for further information on this disorder. The children appear charming and sweet but can be very dangerous even at a very young age.

[Keana]

Hey Nancynic: ?help me?
I have 27 month old twin boys. We've had them for 5 months. When we took them home from the FH, they could hardly speak, 1 word for the younger twin, and 2 -3 words for the older one.
Their speech is still behind, but way more words now (although most unclear to a stranger), they are just not combining 2 or 3 words frequently. BTW, where SHOULD their speech be at right now?

The problem is the younger one screams/hissy fits. We do time outs, and withdraw a toy and later explain that we don't scream, we try to talk...say NO! or Help! or something to replace the sream...this has been slow going, but it has worked to a point. Often now, it's just blatent because he's mad. If we say to him, No don't touch, or your brother is playing with that toy, lets find another, he'll look at you and start these short little screams. If he sees me in the kitchen he automatically thinks it's time for food or juice, I say no, not yet, soon...he hissy fits. Most of the time I try to ignore it, especially when older twin is trying to pick up the habit.

One specialist after an observation session, told me 'Wow! That screaming's got to stop!'....Well thanks for the info lady, but how?
She didn't know.....

Thanks for any suggestions!!
Kea

[jackandjill]

Please explain in detail what strong sit is and when it would be used with a child between the age of 3-5. I would also like to know if physicians back this type of therapy? or just mothers of adopted children?

[lucyjoy]

Attachment therapist and psychiatrists do back this up. A child strong sits usually 3 times a day, but may sit more if needed and also generally following any instruction or if the phone rings(for the child's safety.) The child sits indian style with hands in lap or on knees. Generally for one minute per year of age(to minutes for ADHD kids). The child may appear to sit longer if he is not sitting in the proper manner. The child is allowed to sit as long as he wants his way, but for a small amount of time the correct way. The spine needs to be stright to allow correct oxygen flow.

Therapy is important, but these kids require 24/7 structure and supervision so the parents are trained in techniques to use all the time for the best interest of each child. These children do not trust people or feel safe and require heavy structure and the parenting can appear rigid and strict, but if the child is allowed to get away with anything, they feel unsafe and fear that they will die.

If a parent tries to parent these children like one would a child who'd had a healthy start in life, the child will never develop a conscience and will become increasingly more dangerous to themselves and others.

[jackandjill]

What do you have to do to qualify as a therapist? And is there a specific listing for strong sit/total control psychiatrists on the internet since your saying psychiatrists believe in this?

I agree there needs to be structure in childrens lives but at what age are psychiatrists recommending this type of control the mind therapy? From what I observed of this therapy the adopted child has no control of their own mind and that is very scary, absolutely no independence at all.

Myself and other adults do not believe and/or recommend this type therapy because a friend has been trying this with a very young adopted child for one year and it has actually made things much worst (according to her violence, self abuse, etc.) toward the mother but no one else.

Please if your parents of adopted children seek out help from professionals (get many opinions) they actually must have a degree to work with behaviors in adoptive children and what different therapies to use appropriately.

[lucyjoy]

There are not "strong sit" therapist. They are attachment therapist with adoption training. The closer the mom tries to get to the child's heart, the more frighten the child can become and they normally only do attack themselves or their mothers.
What training in adoption and attachment do you and these people that don't recommend this have? Are you a liscenced mental health professional with training in adoption and attachment. This poor mom needs support, not judgement. Have you looked at the websites or read Nancy Thomas' books?

The child cannot handle having any control of their life or independence at this point. She missed the vitl stages of parenting from birth to 3 years where the brain forms the ability to attach.

There is an attachment forum on this board. You may wish to look there for further information as well as www.radzebra.org and www.radkids.org and www.attach.org

[jackandjill]

I and other adults believe it totally depends on the age of the child when adopted and from where the child was adopted (from foster care or orphange) there is a big difference.
All adopted children do not need the same therapy just like any other child there are no two children alike.
I observed on your profile you have adopted 6 older children. The family I am speaking of adopted this child at the age of 15-16 months old from an orphange so I feel it is a totally different situation.
It is alway good to get all the information about an adopted child and family before giving any type of advice on this website, in my opinion. Some advice may be misleading if all the facts are not revealed.
Does anyone know what qualification does someone need to be an attachment therapist? College? etc.

[nancynic]

Hi,

To become a therapist, one needs undergraduate and graduate work in psychology or social work. Some therapists have doctoral degrees. If one wants to specialize, attachment disorders can become part of a specialty. Are you thinking of training to become a therapist?

Nancy

[BrandyHagz]

Jack, your post said:

Has anyone with an adopted child heard of the strong sit or making the child mad therapy? I have read the purple book about by Thomas and it seems its only written by a parent of foster children which are older is that true? Some of the methods seem very strange to myself and others. Any comments.

In Lucy’s defense, she was answering based on the information you provided…and nowhere did you provide specifics about a child. If you are seeking information on a specific issue, its best to post as much info as possible, so members can respond accordingly with their experiences. It isn’t a member’s responsibility to probe for information…especially in response to a general question such as the one you posted.

You went on to say:

Some advice may be misleading if all the facts are not revealed.

I agree…in the future, if you are seeking information regarding a specific issue, maybe it would be best reveal all of the information, to avoid receiving “misleading” advice.

I’d also like to suggest that you do a little more research on the attachment issues of a 15-month-old institutionalized child…you might find that Lucy’s suggestions to you are dead on. Age, in some cases, has very little to do with attachment, if there is an issue.

[lucyjoy]

I'm also on the board of directors for the attachment disorder network and have now adopted 7 children. Two were adopted from orphanages at young ages and their first adoptions disrupted due to their attachment disorder.

An attachment therapist requires the same training as all other therapists plus the additional attachment training. Strong sitting is only one small parenting technique. Birth to 15 months is an important time for a developing brain. At birth, a baby cries, his mother meets his needs, and the child learns the beginnings of cause and effect and trust. After a short time, the mother learns which cry means what. A child placed in an orphanage at birth, does not get there needs met on demand by a loving parent and sometimes not at all. They are often underfed, unclean, and left to cry or be hurt by the other children.

If the parents have not been taught about attachment therapy and parenting, they often attempt to parent the child initially as they would any 16 month old child. Some put the child immediately into daycare. The child has no idea what's happening to them or who these people are. He has not learned to cry in response to a need and expects noone to respond to that need. The child arches back or cries when mom holds him and seems more content left alone. The child doesn't reach out to mom or seek her for comfort, he doesn't understand how. HIs eyes haven't learned to track objects or peoples movement.
FAS and FAE are also common in kids from some orphanages.

I have raised kids using Nancy Thomas techniques using a qualified therapist. I have used specialist in the field from Utah and New York. What you have been describing is attachment disorder. The child often looks fine to outsiders and the moms often look like the problem, they're not.

There are different attachment techniques and parenting and not all therapist use Thomas' techniques. If this mother is working with a qualified attachment therapists, how can you assume she's wrong? Have you parented a child who spent their first 15 months in an orphanage? Have you read Thomas' material or anyone else's on attachment disorder?

There is a DR. Art on the attachment disorder section of this board as well as other parents who might be able to give you more information.

[jackandjill]

I am trying to find out more information on AD or RAD but things just are not very clear. I stated in a different note that I already read the book by Thomas. The mother I know has been trying these techniques for one whole year now with a so called experienced attachment therapist and issues are only getting worse. That is why I am questioning the creditials of attachment therapists? I feel for the mom and child, they have adopted this child at a very young age and this child has never been in day care. The majority of these items mentioned do not pertain to this child so could it be correct that this child does not have RAD or AD like the physician stated to the mother?