[quantum]

Hear hear shadow riderer.
I know the person who said to me 'I could NEVER let anyone else raise my child' was in the midst of a crisis, she was debating aborting her third child who had been much wanted until her husband decided to leave her...I felt like saying, 'I could never consider doing what you're considering' but I didn't. I just let her say her thing and tried to let it wash over me...she was comparing our situations and they were nothing alike.

There is sort of an odd thing here. I was an extremely depressed teenager. I was a cutter and no one knew about it. Getting pregnant saved me in a way. I wanted to be stronger for my son.

And TGmom, I don't think you're weird or any less of a birth mother because of how you feel! I actually relate to it. I felt SO STRONGLY that I did the right thing. I guess in some ways I still do. I wish I'd had other options presented to me. I really wish I'd had counseling.

Personally, I didn't really feel real grief until reunion. I don't know if it's because I finally allowed myself to? Or if i finally realised what I'd missed, that I'd never have the relationship with my son that I'd love to have. It's ok though. I'll find another kind of relationship to have with him and love that.

I'm so sad for those women who reached such depths of despair that they feel they can't go on. I hope they found the help they needed to pull out of that.

But Janey, just because you don't and haven't felt that low doesn't make you any less. KWIM?

Another point. I have two small girls I'm raising now. Can I tell you how many times I find that job nearly impossible to do? Can I tell you how many times I feel like it isn't the job for me? But I struggle through. I love them fiercely, I just try to do the best I can and keep on my game face for the public.

love you all ladies!

[Janeytwo]

Hey All!

First I wanted to clarify this that I wrote:

I have long feared my children might ask me why I didn't just give up entirely. Somewhere along the line, I got the strange notion that they would.

I hope that didn't sound like I expected my children to give up. I would never want that to happen! I just meant that I in my sick mode of thinking in the silent years, I figured they would've thought less of me because I lived and didn't end it. Sigh...the things I told myself.

Anyhoo...

JustPeachy

I have to wonder, was Sister Susie a virgin when she married???

Yes. In fact, she made a point of announcing that at all family gatherings, and her bridal shower before she wed where she made a public joke of how "some of you might not understand my decision to wait but at least I'm not like Janey". She continues to comment on the fact of her virginity before marraige some 18 years later too, though I did finally confront her and she finally stopped making a spectacle of me to the family.

I don't know how you held back from throttling your mom when she said this to you. I feel so angry that she could say such a thing! And I'm willing to bet Sister Susie wasn't so perfect, either.

Yeah. This is the one thing that still stabs at my heart because we were standing in the hallway of the hospital at the time. Susie had just given birth that morning and my mother had called to ask if I wanted to go see her. I told her that that was just too much for me emtionally, but that I was planning to support Susie by going by her house and getting it all spic and span for her and that I had a gift for the baby and would see the baby when Susie got home.

Mom had said that was fine but would I drop by for a moment, she had something for me. And when I got to her house, she said, "So? Are you ready to go see Susie?" (Sad smile inserted here). Mom didn't have anything for me. She just wanted to get me to the house. She'd set me up. Had every intention of making sure I went to the hospital. So I just sort of clambered in the car and went up to the hospital and it was after we'd just gotten off the elevator and were standing in the hallway waiting to leave the hospital that mom said what she said.

Though I would accept mom's apology if she ever made one, I'm not sure I'll ever understand how it was she did that to me because it was deliberate and that's tough to live with.

Ironically enough - given our subject, Susie has tried to commit suicide on 3 separate occasions. Strange that I blocked that out yesterday. I always do that; block that part of Susie out. Weird. Sigh...the legacy of childhood has a long shadow for me and my siblings I guess.

Susie is driven to the depths of despair and I'm driven to the heights of denial. Opposite sides of the same haunting coin I suppose.

Shadowriderer

I've learned in my own life experience one thing. A person never truly knows what they can do, will do, or are capable of doing until they are in that situation.

((( Shadow ))) Thanks for those kinds words!

One of the brilliant 20th Century philosphers said (loosely quoted from memory): "If I am to be honest with myself, I cannot say with absolutely certainty that I wouldn've have been a camp guard at Auschwitz." It's one of the Segals who said this - though I'm not sure if it was Erich or William. (I tried to research but fell short on that mark).

Anyway, that quote has always struck me. What are we capable of in desparate times? It is frightening for me to realize just what I might stoop to if I had to.

Maybe I've often thought that way because I'm a bmom. Not that I'm saying that I "stooped" in any way or that I'm comparing being a bmom to being a camp guard! Lord! I hope I don't come across like that.

It's just that I think (my opinion only) our experience may be why so many of us are loathe to comment on Roe, even though in giving birth we didn't make that choice (no judgement of anyone meant here - honest).

It's because we understand that choices are forced upon us simply by virtue of having a life. The big choices come to all at some point. Do I marry? Do I divorce? Can I do what my loved one has asked of me in their will and sign their DNR? Do I want to have children? Can I carry this child to term? Can I sign those papers? The list is endless.

Becoming a birthparent causes one to lose one's innocense about life at a young age. There is a knowing there...guess that's what I mean.

Quantum I hope you're feeling better and are over your flu!!

I know the person who said to me 'I could NEVER let anyone else raise my child' ....she was debating aborting her third child.....I felt like saying, 'I could never consider doing what you're considering' but I didn't. I just let her say her thing and tried to let it wash over me...she was comparing our situations and they were nothing alike.

Same thing has happened to me on two different occasions - both women opting for Roe. I have also stood by holding my tongue knowing that people say things when they're in pain that maybe they don't even realize they're saying. Though I have to admit, I never had anything to do with either of those women again. One of them is a relative; the other was a friend since childhood. It was just too darn much having someone use my pain in order to make themselves feel better.

But Janey, just because you don't and haven't felt that low doesn't make you any less.

You're so right, bud. It's just taken me so many years to see it. Somebody - I think it was Peachy - said on another thread that bmoms from the closed era were treated so badly. That's true. That "forget and never speak of it again" mentality that was thrust on us? How could a person not feel "less" than? It sure did a number on me.

And why us? Why birthmothers? What did we do that was so terrible that we needed to be bricked up; shut out from society like lepers were. That's how it felt to me, did it to you guys? Like we were lepers and we were banished to the colony of silent shame where we were to live out our lives in the knowledge that we had failed?

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

Though I do remember when my Sister Susie had her baby and my mom saying, "See Janey. This is what good girls get. They get to have husbands who love them and they get to have kids with those husbands and keep them."

Janey, we are hardwired to survive. Nature saved you. Those who have no filters can end up dying of a broken heart. I kid you not.

As to your story above... if you were near me know I would hug you tight. No one deserves to be treated like that. My heart aches for the young woman that you were.

[Janeytwo]

Thank you Brenda. No one has helped more than you just in case you didn't know that.

[BrockBaby]

So many wonderful words of wisdom are contained in this thread. So many snippets of honest, gut-level feelings are being shared as well. It is inspiring, at a level that those "finger-pointers" will never understand. If the "finger-pointers" could ever realize that tearing down others does not promote themselves, the way it feels like it does, then maybe, just maybe, we as a society could start to make progress into helping each other heal from the pains of life, rather then make it worse. Honestly, as I sit here thinking about this, I feel bad for those who "finger-point" because I think that they suffer from a worse "issue" then those they are finger-pointing at. I shudder at the thought that I have to tear down someone else to feel okay about myself. I much rather face my own issues, and have myself surrounded by REAL people who survive this life by being real, rather then those who never really cross over into the "being" that I have seen expressed here and on other threads.....

So gals, thanks for being REAL...that's what the world REALLY needs, even if they don't know it....here's to REAL women

[JustPeachy]

Yes. In fact, she made a point of announcing that at all family gatherings, and her bridal shower before she wed where she made a public joke of how "some of you might not understand my decision to wait but at least I'm not like Janey". She continues to comment on the fact of her virginity before marraige some 18 years later too, though I did finally confront her and she finally stopped making a spectacle of me to the family.

Janey, Can I please give Sister Susie a virtual b*tch-slap?? Please???? Can I??? Can I????

To be honest, I think she was making more a spectacle of HERSELF, but I'm sorry she had to drag you down like that. And I'm flabbergasted that no one else in your family stuck up for you and told SS to put a cork in it! And to me, it sounds like SS was trying way too hard to convince people at your expense. To make a point of it like that, over and over, well, I still wonder if she was being truthful...Methinks she doth protest too much, if you know what I mean...I know, that's neither here nor there, and I'm really derailing this thread by focusing on Sister Susie, but I'd just like you to know I think you are way cool and awesome, and if I was around when your family was treating you this way, I would have stood up for you. I'm glad you confronted her and got her to stop that nonsense.

[Janeytwo]

Thanks "Peachy" - Actually it's me that sort of derailed my own thread!

It just really has been a deep down belief I held for so long that I was outside of civilized society and I'm starting to see what part of the problem was.

I think I had some kind of odd survivor's guilt thing going.

But it takes some time to negotiate all this stuff, guys, doesn't it?

[JPDakota]

Janey,
When I went back to your original post, the first thing I thought about was a kind of survivors' guilt. Please bear in mind, I am a complete outsider in your world. But you know, I've talked to a lot of veterans who have said things to me about should *insert horrible thing here* have taken me too? If I were worthy or respectable or had courage, then I would be dead now." (Paraphrasing, of course) And I'm kind of wondering if what you're talking about isn't kind of similar. My Dad often spoke of the internal pressure we put on ourselves based on how we were raised, what our contemporaries thought, how our minds work, how we see ourselves in the world really. I guess I don't know if that is really societal pressure but something deeper and far harder to resolve.
I don't know. Like I said, I'm not from your world. It just sort of struck me. Forgive me if I'm out of bounds.

[Janeytwo]

Hey JPDakota! Good to hear from you!

Forgive me if I'm out of bounds.

Nah! Not at all! I mean, hey, if I'm going to put a thread out there then I have to be willing to accept all who come to reply. Everyone's point of view has merit, IMO. Yeah, it might tick me off for a bit, but sooner or later I'll weigh it out and be back. I love to communicate with people! (Gee...whoever wouldah thunk it, huh?)

Besides if I'm not willing to hear what people have to say, then I shouldn't start a thread to begin with. (LOL! I sent someone a PM with that message once. They didn't like me much after that!)


Anyhoo...Actually I really liked what you said here and there is a great deal of truth and wisdom in it.

You know, it's been my experience that in poorer neighborhoods a lot of people choose to keep their children with them, or they choose abortion. Adoption is a rare thing. Again, that's how I've perceived it - though I don't know the statistics in fact.

It's almost (IMO) like people are thinking, "poverty has taken my ability to eat, to have nice clothes, to have a car that runs, to have heat in my home but it's not taking my children from me."

So there is that because I felt I surrendered to poverty, if that makes sense, by relinquishing my children. Not that I'm judging people who choose to parent their kids in tough economic situations - not at all - never. I'm just talking about how I've felt.

If I were worthy or respectable or had courage, then I would be dead now."

You hit the nail on the head there, my friend!

See that was the thing. I should've been a drug addict or in prison or a prostitute but I wasn't. I was something else, like the other kids who were with me; a teen just drifting out there, mooching food, scrounging for change in parking lots and sleeping in cars in the onset of winter.

And that's not strength or toughness. You guys want to know what tough is? Tough is the kid that lives at the end of some adult's fist and keeps on keeping on no matter how bad it gets. I was the oldest. My younger siblings were looking to me to do something; to fix it. I tried to defend them against step-dad and I failed miserably. In the end, I just couldn't take it anymore and I ran. Tough kids don't run. They don't. They stay and put up with it. That's b***s-to-the-walls bad-a** right there.

But I couldn't do it and so I ran into the street and because I did that two children now live as adoptees.

I feel so bad for my daughter and son. Who'd want that as a legacy? Shoot, would you? My poor daughters that are with me have to have that history through me. Why should my son and daughter have to ever know what I was? And yet they have every right to know.

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like it would've been better to not have survived. Lots didn't so who am I that I did? Ya know? That's how it feels some days.

I sure hope that didn't sound like the pity pot. I sure don't mean it to. I made my choices and I refuse to lie to myself about that. There's no honor in that.

Thanks for listening everyone.

[BrockBaby]

But I couldn't do it and so I ran into the street and because I did that two children now live as adoptees.

I feel so bad for my daughter and son. Who'd want that as a legacy? Shoot, would you? My poor daughters that are with me have to have that history through me. Why should my son and daughter have to ever know what I was? And yet they have every right to know.

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like it would've been better to not have survived. Lots didn't so who am I that I did? Ya know? That's how it feels some days.

I sure hope that didn't sound like the pity pot. I sure don't mean it to. I made my choices and I refuse to lie to myself about that. There's no honor in that.

Thanks for listening everyone.

Janey,

As I was reading your post, I couldn't help but smile, even with all the truths that you shared...because you are an example of how, even through horrible experiences, we survive despite ourselves, despite what "should have" or "could have" been, and despite what others thought...

As for your children, I think you summed it up when you said "your history"...the history is over. We learn from history, but we don't live there. History can set the stage for things, but doesn't mean that it makes the final curtain call. Each person has their own responsibility for their life. My bmom has made horrible choices in her life, and it hurts me, because I wanted more for her (she is still living in those choices, and never chose to get out...)...but I have learned, and so will your children, that what happened to our bmoms, amoms, grandparents, ect does not define us. We each get to make our own legacy. And the legacy that you are leaving is not based on just a certian number of years, but the joy, love, blessing that you are to the people that are in your life. We can look back for so long, that we forget that we are walking forward...into a future. And the way I see it, your future is bright!! You have A LOT to offer people, especially your children.

One thing that I admire about you is the fact that you DO take responsibility for yourself and your choices, and that speaks VOLUMES about you!!!!

I am glad you survived..the world is a better place because of it!

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

You hit the nail on the head there, my friend!

See that was the thing. I should've been a drug addict or in prison or a prostitute but I wasn't. I was something else, like the other kids who were with me; a teen just drifting out there, mooching food, scrounging for change in parking lots and sleeping in cars in the onset of winter.

And that's not strength or toughness. You guys want to know what tough is? Tough is the kid that lives at the end of some adult's fist and keeps on keeping on no matter how bad it gets. I was the oldest. My younger siblings were looking to me to do something; to fix it. I tried to defend them against step-dad and I failed miserably. In the end, I just couldn't take it anymore and I ran. Tough kids don't run. They don't. They stay and put up with it. That's b***s-to-the-walls bad-a** right there.

But I couldn't do it and so I ran into the street and because I did that two children now live as adoptees.

I feel so bad for my daughter and son. Who'd want that as a legacy? Shoot, would you? My poor daughters that are with me have to have that history through me. Why should my son and daughter have to ever know what I was? And yet they have every right to know.

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like it would've been better to not have survived. Lots didn't so who am I that I did? Ya know? That's how it feels some days.

I sure hope that didn't sound like the pity pot. I sure don't mean it to. I made my choices and I refuse to lie to myself about that. There's no honor in that.

Thanks for listening everyone.

Janey, I don't quite know where to start with this post......I want to stamp my feet, put my finger in your face and yell at you! Here is why
1. Why the heck Should you have been an addict or a prostitute...why? you had the intelligence and yes STRENGTH to not go that route in order to survive.

2. you may have been the oldest but you were the oldest CHILD, you thought as a child and left to survive yourself. You were NOT there parent as much as you loved them.you taking the hits doesn't help them....YOU did not have the ability to save them as much as you wanted to...you really had to save yourself first. You wer one little child that was helpless to the horrible adults around you, as were your sibs. I don't think there was a contract anywhere that said you were suppose to save them.

Smart kids run.

3. the comment about your kids living as adoptees

The fact that you are understanding their position only validates the fact that you are their mother too. I have always maintained that if a mom is unable to give shelter, food, clothes etc then adoption is truly in the best interest of the child. I am willing to bet that your twins are just living...living the life of 20 somethings and as much as adoption has changed their course they just want to be a 20 something. You didn't DO anything to them but give birth and make a maternal decision in their best interest. Please don't feel guilty for most of us adoptees I am willing to gather that the last thing we want our bmoms to feel is guilty! that in turn makes me feel guilty...LOL..crazy as it sounds.

4. YOUR legacy? Naw, your legacy for your children is how you broke the cycle of abuse and made decisions for all involved to do just that. I can't imagine your life, I can't imagine having the strength to endure what you have and come out the other end as intact as you are....you deserve accolades, love and respect. NOT judgment and criticism. Your children I beleive will be honored to know tht their bmom was strong enough to fight for herself and her children.....you have come such a long way and you have done well.....I feel honorred to be communicating with you....Let YOUR legacy be the strong woman you are not the abused child. otherwise that aweful man that did abuse and those that let it happen have won.
5. You should have survived because you are needed today..You should not have been abused, you should not have hade to feel you needed to save your sibs, you should not have lived on thee streets as a teen...but you MOST definetly should have survived.

6. You made choices based upon was was handed to you.

[JustPeachy]

But I couldn't do it and so I ran into the street and because I did that two children now live as adoptees.

Janey, you say this as thought it is a bad thing to live as an adoptee. I'm not an adoptee and can't begin to know what that feels like (I' sure it's a very different experience for each individual), but I also don't think it's something terrible, or at least it shouldn't be. And what was the alternative? To bring those children into an abusive household where they'd see you and others being beaten, and possibly become the targets of that abuse, too? No, I think you did the right thing in running far away from that whole scene and protecting your babies.

[BrockBaby]

Peachy...

It's true, not all of us adoptees think it is such a horrible thing being adopted. I like my status as being an adoptee...not saying it wasn't without struggle, fears, questioning, ect...but then who doesn't deal with those things in life...like I've said, it's all about the lenses we look through in life that matters the most.

[Saya]

I hope it's OK to post here on this thread as an amom. As usual, Janey, I am amazed by the emotional power of the honesty of your posts. I learn so much from reading them.

I wanted to post because as an a-parent the idea of nature resonated with me in a profound and disturbing way. Everyone in the adoption triad, it seems is at some point accused by society of violating some invented ideal of "nature" - some ideal of what it means to be a mother, a woman, a child, a family. You get the societal accusations, spoken or unspoken, that you somehow went against nature for having relinquished. You get the "Oh I NEVER could have done that." I get, spoken or unspoken, the parallel accusation my family is somehow "unnatural." I also get the "I NEVER could have done that" - i.e. be the mother of a child I didn't give birth to. And the child at the heart of it all - well as Brock and Dpen said so eloquently, every adoptee is different. But they also have to cope with society's questions and accusations. And they REALLY have no agency in the whole thing.

Obviously we are all in different situations. And I understand and admit that as an adoptive parent I am in a position of privilege within the triad, and that thus I cannot equate our positions. But I do see a unity in the way we are made to defend ourselves (either our loud or silently in our hearts) as women who have defied the so-called natural order. It's just another case of women paying a high price in this world for making tough choices.

[-maggie]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

I've started to wonder if my reaction was against nature. I'm talking about how I tucked my head down and walked on. I hope I'm relaying that right. Was it wrong to not have relinquishment stop me dead in my tracks and end me? What does that say about me that it didn't?

Hi Janey! I don't think your reaction was against nature at all. I think we do what we need to do at the time to survive. For me, I have felt guilt about having a life after relinquishment. Somehow, I guess I felt unworthy. This guilt has held me down in a way. At times I have needed to tuck my head down and walk on too. I think this makes you a survivor...