[RC3]

I do agree 200%. Same age range too! He is saying that and we have discussed it. The problem is, when do we find a place for it? I wished my mom and I grew up together too but I didn't have hostility or so much anguish that I treid to make her feel bad. In fact, I think I absorbed most of the pain to make it easier on her. I understand boys and girls are different, but when is it enough and when can we get to a place of knowing life is too short. I thought my mom dying would have taught him that. Do I continue to let him lead me into despair too? That's what it feels like he wants from me. I know that sounds horrible! He can't make me feel any worse about things than I already do.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by RC3

I do agree 200%. Same age range too! He is saying that and we have discussed it. The problem is, when do we find a place for it? I wished my mom and I grew up together too but I didn't have hostility or so much anguish that I treid to make her feel bad. In fact, I think I absorbed most of the pain to make it easier on her.

He is still very young, and boys are less mature than girls are at that age. Also, everybody processes pain and grief differently. If he *is* trying to make you feel badly, I think he's doing it out of his own pain. Have you ever tried to help an animal who's been hurt? They lash out at you, even though you're helping them. (I am in no way saying that an adoptee is like an animal. I'm saying that ALL humans tend to lash out when they're in pain, just like the rest of the animal kingdom.)

I'm sorry that you felt you had to absorb most of your own birthmom's pain in order to make things easier on her. That was wrong of her to allow that to happen, IMHO. Your son's responsibility isn't to make you feel better. If he is feeling depressed and angry (and, yes, the two often go together), that is how he is feeling. He isn't doing this to hurt you--he isn't going through suicidal feelings to hurt you. This is about him. I know what I've just said sounds harsh. And I mean you no harm...I really don't. It's just that sometimes we all need a reality check.

When I was 21 years old, I went through a very severe depression. I attempted suicide, and very nearly succeeded. If I had been taken to any other hospital than the one I worked at, I would not have made it. But my friends in the ER refused to give up during CPR. They kept on going way longer than normal to bring me back.

My mom was so angry at me when I came out of the coma. She made it all about her, how my suicide attempt made her feel. She didn't see me, she didn't see my pain, she didn't see my despair. She just thought I did it to hurt her. To be honest, I didn't even think about her once the night I attempted to die, not that I remember anyway.

I think a lot of parents take their kids' emotional problems and/or mental illnesses very personally. Try to put yourself in your son's shoes. It sounds to me like he's turning his pain and anger inwards and doesn't want to deal with it any longer. Or so he thinks.... He may also want to know that you care enough to tell him that you want him to live.

If this *is* a game he's playing with you, then he still needs help, IMO. I think he's hurting....

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by RC3

I understand boys and girls are different, but when is it enough and when can we get to a place of knowing life is too short. I thought my mom dying would have taught him that.

He's way too young to know how short life is yet. He's still at the age of "invincibility" and thinking we're all immortal.

Originally Posted by RC3

Do I continue to let him lead me into despair too? That's what it feels like he wants from me. I know that sounds horrible! He can't make me feel any worse about things than I already do.

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, we are all responsible for our own feelings. No one can make me feel something unless I allow it. That's why I never say to anybody, "you made me feel this way or that way." I say, instead, "I feel this way or that way when you do this or that." Ownership is key...

Have you dealt with your own guilt over placing your son for adoption? Could it be that there is some deep-seated guilt way inside that's bugging you? Usually when people do something that "makes" me feel terrible, I find that they're triggering one of my own issues.

Reunion is hard, as you know already. And I think dealing with a loved one who has emotional problems is always hard. Keep posting. You may not like what I have to say, and that's okay. You can just tell me to buzz off if I get overbearing. I just want you to feel better. And I want your son to get some help....

[RC3]

Hey Raven,

I appreciate your honesty and your wisdom. You are right, it is about him...he's my son!

Now, I just have to figure out how to convince him to get help!
I think the best time would be when he is in his dark place as opposed to when he's feeling "fine". What do you think? What can I say, that I haven't said before, that will make the difference tho, without him shutting me out the minute he realizes what I want him to do? I look at it like drug addiction...how can I help him if he won't help himself? That's my biggest problem.

[RC3]

Happy Sunday Raven,

If you don't mind me asking...what was it that made you feel that the only way out was to die? I have also been pretty rock bottom, alone, homeless, desperate and all out pathetic in my own drug induced despair in the past, but I think I was just too scared to try and end things myself. I kept praying that God take me out of this place. I guess that wasn't the in plan so I quit asking. I don't know. Maybe, I held on to some kind of hope..maybe, some just can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Maybe that IS the light at the end of the tunnel for them!?! I so want to understand this.

I have thought about other people's situations and especially about my husband's nephew. He sat in his car outside his ex girfriend's house and shot him self in the heart! 19 yeras old!!! Like that was the only thing he had to live for. He was such a cool kid.
I don't understand feeling so drastic because someone decided they didn't want to go out with you anymore. That is what I think some of this is about right now. My son went out with this girl he really liked for about a month and she dedcided that she couldn't be in a relationship with him right now. That...I don't get. To want to die because of someone else's opinion. I do understand wanting to check out for other reasons though. I have known that kind of darkness. I have come to realize over the years, as most do, things always work themselves out...one way or another.

[Jackiejdajda]

RC3

I kept praying that God take me out of this place. I guess that wasn't the in plan so I quit asking. I don't know. Maybe, I held on to some kind of hope..maybe, some just can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Maybe that IS the light at the end of the tunnel for them!?! I so want to understand this.

Some will say when a person gives a child up for adoption that this is the worse pain (the actual giving up).. but I wonder about this.. what you are going through must be terrible.. just terrible.. I am sitting doing my day stuff and I keep thinking of you and your situation..

I worry about my kids.. and sometimes I seize up worrying.. unable to really sort what my part in this is..
My son (not the one I relinquished) made choices and also hard hard things have happened to him..
I work today to pull myself out of this kind of worry..

And here you are with the complication of adoptive parents and who is who.. you must be worried sick..
I don’t know why some people get stuff like this visited on them.. Its hard being a mother..

My son went out with this girl he really liked for about a month and she dedcided that she couldn't be in a relationship with him right now. That...I don't get. To want to die because of someone else's opinion.

I think this is why we really really have to go the extra mile for our kids.. but its so hard..

I do understand wanting to check out for other reasons though. I have known that kind of darkness. I have come to realize over the years, as most do, things always work themselves out...one way or another.

I have always thought of checking out as a way out.. the terrible depression when I did not tell anyone about having given my son up for adoption.. My pain.. my worry.. Not telling anyone.. not sharing what I was going through I think is what gives some of us the reason to just check out..
I keep calling my son.. and I keep worrying about him..

Jackie

[RavenSong]

RC3, just in case you check out this thread for new replies, I wanted to let you know that I've read your newest posts. I need to think about what you've written for a little bit. And then I'll be back to post...I promise.

Jackie, thank you for jumping in here with your thoughts and your wisdom. They are very much appreciated. I hear your concern and worry about what your son is going through right now. I'm adding him to my thoughts and prayers today.

Be back shortly, folks....

[RavenSong]

Hi, RC3... Let me take this a bit at a time...

Originally Posted by RC3

Now, I just have to figure out how to convince him to get help! I think the best time would be when he is in his dark place as opposed to when he's feeling "fine". What do you think?

I think your instinct is right on this. He probably will be more open to getting help when he's feeling pain and is struggling in the darkness. (Interesting...whenever I go into a depression, I always refer to it as "going down the dark ladder.") Is your son "cycling" between feeling depressed and feeling fine?? If so, he might be showing signs of bipolar disorder, or he could have cyclothymia.

I have to ask you this. Is it possible that your son is doing drugs of any type? You said he lives in Southern California, my old stomping grounds. A lot of young adults around his age down in that part of the state (I live in No. Cal.) are using crystal methamphetamine. My own son had a horrible addiction to the stuff. He started off using it to self-medicate his bipolar disorder. (Thank God, he's been clean and sober now for around 14 or 15 years.) Crystal meth is a real double-edged sword. When someone who is prone to depression takes it, it makes all the pain go away. It also makes them feel good about themselves...temporarily. The problem is that the "good" feelings don't last. After a while, the drug itself will cause someone to go into a tailspin, down into the depths of depression.

The reason I ask about drug usage is if he *is* abusing drugs, that would be the first step in helping him help himself. He would need to detox off the drugs and get into a recovery program. (If you need any info on 12-step programs, just PM me, and I'll point you in the right direction.)

Originally Posted by RC3

What can I say, that I haven't said before, that will make the difference tho, without him shutting me out the minute he realizes what I want him to do? I look at it like drug addiction...how can I help him if he won't help himself?

I have struggled now for hours about this question. And to be honest, I don't have an answer for you. There is a difference between addiction and suicidal depression in regards to helping someone, IMO. I'm not sure if I'll be able to describe this right, but here goes. The times in my life when I have been at the very bottom of the dark ladder, way out there in the darkness, I've needed someone to pull me back. There was no way I could do it myself...no way. Unfortunately, when someone "bottoms out" in depression, it often translates into suicide. The pain is so intense, so deep, you really don't see a way out. The depression, itself, creates a certain lethargy. You lose all motivation, optimism, positive feelings, all that and more.

I think that people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol are more prone to ask for help when they "bottom out" than someone who is sucidal is. I mean, it's fairly easy to identify what the problem is when you look at all the empty bottles in your trash can, and you're gulping aspirin to cure the hangover. You know that if you can stop using or drinking, then you'll feel better eventually. But depression is a different monster. You can't make it go away by yourself, even with the help of people in a recovery program. It's a biochemical illness, one with a strong genetic component, IMO. (Interestingly enough, many people who are prone to depression and do NOT drink or use alcohol have family members who are alcoholics.)

Well, that's enough for right now. I'm going to address your next post in a few minutes.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by RC3

If you don't mind me asking...what was it that made you feel that the only way out was to die? I have also been pretty rock bottom, alone, homeless, desperate and all out pathetic in my own drug induced despair in the past, but I think I was just too scared to try and end things myself. I kept praying that God take me out of this place.

When I became severely depressed, all I felt was pain, total and absolute pain. Besides the emotional pain, I was in an incredible amount of unrelenting physical pain from previous spinal surgeries that had been botched. (I also had, at that point in time, an undiagnosed benign tumor in my spinal canal, sitting on top of my spinal cord and wrapped around the sciatic nerve.)

I had always been a very spiritual person...and I could no longer feel God's presence. My prayers went unheard, or so I thought at the time. I went to my church, and all I felt was alone, sitting there in the pew. I felt like God had turned His back on me, that He didn't love me anymore. And I just couldn't go on with my life. It was as simple as that.

Anyway, I just became bone-weary tired of being in pain. A few days before my sucide attempt, I was abducted by several guys and pretty messed up. (I've written about this event in recent posts, but I'm just not up to talking about it tonight. If you want to read about it, I think it's on the thread titled "The Artist's Way".) This event put me over the edge, so to speak.

I made the decision a couple days before the actual attempt. And then suddenly my mood was a thousand percent better. Not because the depression was lifting, but because I knew I wouldn't be in pain very much longer. In retrospect, I can see how classic I was in my suicide attempt. I gave away some prized possessions, including a very expensive guitar that usually never left my side. I took my younger siblings out individually to lunch, to dinner, to the playground. And I used my front-row tickets and treated my best friend to a Bob Dylan concert, the "Hard Rain" tour. And then I went home. I thought about writing a note, and then decided I didn't know what to say. So I said nothing... I just sat there and downed two bottles of barbiturates and one bottle of painkillers with a large glass of Pepsi. And then I crawled into bed and went to sleep.

For some strange reason, I felt no fear, absolutely no fear, of what I was about to do. I was so lost in the void, so out there in the darkness...I just couldn't figure out how to get back.

Originally Posted by RC3

Maybe, I held on to some kind of hope... maybe, some just can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Maybe that IS the light at the end of the tunnel for them!?! I so want to understand this.

You've answered your own question right here. It IS the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. When someone is so depressed, in so much pain, and feeling so hopeless, suicide can seem like the light at the end of the tunnel. An escape, a way off the merry-go-round that we call life, total peace... That's what it feels like, peace and an end to pain.

And that is exactly why people who are suicidal need someone to hold out their hand so they can grasp it. Suicide can be a lure, a trap, quicksand. And it can be hard not to become enveloped in it. You need a hand to hold onto when you get caught up in its web.

Originally Posted by RC3

I don't understand feeling so drastic because someone decided they didn't want to go out with you anymore. That is what I think some of this is about right now. My son went out with this girl he really liked for about a month and she decided that she couldn't be in a relationship with him right now. That...I don't get. To want to die because of someone else's opinion.

I think a lot of teenagers and young adults who kill themselves do so shortly after a break-up. Love is so intense at that age, and some people blur the boundaries between themselves and their boyfriends/girlfriends. Also, I know that a lot of adoptees have talked here on these boards about how breakups trigger their adoption-related fears of rejection. Some adoptees seem to have trouble getting close to others; some adoptees have trouble letting go of others. We all know that this issue doesn't only pertain to adoptees. A lot of people have trouble in relationships, but most people haven't been relinquished by their mothers at birth. So I think breakups may be harder on some adoptees than non-adoptees. But that's just my own viewpoint and understanding. I could be way off-base.

Originally Posted by RC3

I do understand wanting to check out for other reasons though. I have known that kind of darkness.

Which leads me to wonder whether depression in running in your genes. You've made reference to the darkness several times. Do you know if there was any depression in your birthparents or grandparents? How about siblings?

[Jackiejdajda]

Ravensong

Originally Posted by RC3
What can I say, that I haven't said before, that will make the difference tho, without him shutting me out the minute he realizes what I want him to do? I look at it like drug addiction...how can I help him if he won't help himself?

The times in my life when I have been at the very bottom of the dark ladder, way out there in the darkness, I've needed someone to pull me back. There was no way I could do it myself...no way. Unfortunately, when someone "bottoms out" in depression, it often translates into suicide. The pain is so intense, so deep, you really don't see a way out. The depression, itself, creates a certain lethargy. You lose all motivation, optimism, positive feelings, all that and more.

I have always had a low grade depression.. this through the drug years and before..
I know I have scared my kids.. my husband just does not believe me.. I can remember standing on the American side of Niagara Falls and you can basically just step into the water and go over.. there is a photo of a man who had lost a lot of money at one of the casinos standing at the edge of the falls.. what an image..

His fellow man came and rescued him.. the rescue people.. the ones that risk their lives to rescue people..
And there is a film about the bridge in Sanfrancisco where people jump all the time.. someone put a camera on the bridge..
Its just too hard some times..

I know there is a way to pull someone out of a deep depression.. the right string of words.. but my son won’t let me say them.. Not allowed..
My daughter called yesterday and I told her that he had reached another stage of the alopecia.. and she said.. “mom don’t you get all worried about him because he can feel you.. and your worry”..
So I tried to lighten it up and tried to change my mood.. but I worry..

I honestly do not know how to help someone that does not want help.. and I immediately want to say.. cut off.. save yourself..
And I bet my son has no thoughts of anything bad he is just pissed off.. and its me with my insanity my cut offs that is thinking the way that I would think..

I don’t know..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey RC3! I'm Janey. Welcome to the forum. I'm so sorry to hear about all that your struggling with now. I thought maybe I'd share a bit here....just answer some posts.... and that hopefully that might help you. I have been institutionlized twice (of my own volition) and am willing to speak - quite openly - about my mental illness; at least as I experienced it. One thing I refuse to do is be ashamed of my history of mental illness. I believe society as a whole would like very much to shut the mentally ill away and pretend they're not there but I find that notion rediculous to the point of absurdity. I.e., we ain't goin nowhere and nobody can make us!!

I have never apologized for being in "the bin" as I fondly call it and I don't shirk from that. So, please feel free to ask me whatever you like. I'll answer you - not a problem.


Raven

A few days before my sucide attempt, I was abducted by several guys....This event put me over the edge, so to speak.

(((( Raven )))) I know it must be hard for you to speak of this openly - even after all this time and I imagine that coming back from something like this must involve traveling down a very dark path not unlike slogging through nuclear waste. You've got a lot of guts, kiddo. We need people such as you; those who will talk of what happened and where it led them. Thank you for having the courage to share.

I made the decision a couple days before the actual attempt. And then suddenly my mood was a thousand percent better. Not because the depression was lifting, but because I knew I wouldn't be in pain very much longer.......And then I crawled into bed and went to sleep.

My sister Susie talks of this. She attempted suicide twice; once by slitting her wrists and once by throwing herself down a flight of stairs (while pregnant). She often says she didn't want to hurt anyone, she just wanted to go to sleep and not wake up.

I was so lost in the void, so out there in the darkness...I just couldn't figure out how to get back.

I can picture you, Raven; alone, lost. It breaks my heart to imagine you suffering this way.

Jackie

I honestly do not know how to help someone that does not want help.. and I immediately want to say.. cut off.. save yourself

I'm the same way. Part of it for me has to do with the harshness of the rules of my upbringing. You're born; you live; you die; it's over. Don't waste your time on pity for yourself or anyone else. Don't look back. Everyone has an angle; everyone is out to screw you over. Faith is a waste of time - so is faith in God. People who look at their own pain are the worst sort of cowards; the weakest of the weak. Strength lies in denial of self and soul. Never tell anyone anything. They'll use it against you at the first opportunity. Don't count on your friends; they're human; they'll turn on you.

That's some tough crapolio to put to rest and I know you know what I mean. We were raised one and the same I think in those rules.

Then too, there is the tyranny of the Program. Though it is a blessing; a path to freedom, IMO it also teaches a certain amount of callous detachment. IMO, the long-timers; the old sage ones? Jackie...it must take them years to learn what compassion with detachment is.

And I bet my son has no thoughts of anything bad he is just pissed off.. and its me with my insanity my cut offs that is thinking the way that I would think..

I looked up Alopecia as I'd never heard of it. It sounds like an illness that challenges a person's perceptions of themself in relation to how others view them. One of those illnesses that cannot be hidden. It must be so hard for both you and your son.

Go easy on yourself though, bud. I mean, you're a mom. What else would you do? Right? I'd be a ball of nerves too.

Love you guys!

[RC3]

Thank you all so much for shring your feelings and your stories. I have to take this all in. WoW!!!! I appreciate the fact that you all are able to talk about your experiences!
And thank GOD (or whomever) that you did not leave this place yet Raven!!!!
You are an angel whether you know it or not.

Major big hugs and kisses to you all.
I'll write more later.

[Janeytwo]

You know guys, this morning something occurred to me. Actually it woke me up with a start.

There is another kind of suicide; character suicide. :-(

And I committed it on myself. Slept with a lot of guys; ruined my reputation; and ultimately lost two children.

All because I felt I was worthless; that I was the scum at the bottom of the barrell; that I had nothing to offer anyone, including myself.

:-(

So I sentenced myself to a zombie life; flitting from one terrible encounter with guys to another one; desparate and hollow inside.

:-(

That's a kind of suicide, I think.

And I don't want any of our daughters to suffer it; EVER.

Thanks for listening.

[Jo Ellen]

It has been my experience when being around people who are suicidal that they make it known they are thinking of it in some way. Reaching out for help without specifically saying so. It happened that way in my life with a few people I knew in HS and college and also with a long time friend from church and they were gone by the time anyone realized what was really going on. Not trying to be morbid..... just sharing what I have seen happen. I know there are support groups available for this type of problem and of course counseling. It could be even though your son has had a great life and is close to you he hasn't worked through his grief of what adoption has done to him internally. It has taken me a few years to realize some things about myself in regards to me being adopted. Just know you have support here.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

I have always had a low grade depression.. this through the drug years and before..
I know I have scared my kids.. my husband just does not believe me..

Jackie, I think I started suffering from depression as a little kid. I know that a low-grade depression existed by the time I was a teenager. I didn't know the name for it at the time; I just knew I felt sad most of the time. People used to tell me to snap out of it, and I always felt guilty that I wasn't able to just stop it.

I remember when my bson was 14 years old, the adoption agency's post-adoptions caseworker told me he was suffering from a severe depression. And that was when I finally realized that depression is a biochemical illness, running in the blood. It's not a character defect or weakness. It was the first time I didn't feel guilty about my own depression.

The times in my life that I've been seriously depressed, I've scared my friends and loved ones. But the times when I'm in a "low-grade" depression, I think they just don't believe me, or they don't want to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

I can remember standing on the American side of Niagara Falls and you can basically just step into the water and go over.. there is a photo of a man who had lost a lot of money at one of the casinos standing at the edge of the falls.. what an image..

His fellow man came and rescued him.. the rescue people.. the ones that risk their lives to rescue people..
And there is a film about the bridge in San Francisco where people jump all the time.. someone put a camera on the bridge.. Its just too hard some times..

I saw those images of the guy standing over Niagara Falls, Jackie. They were pretty intense. I stay away from dams and bridges when I'm depressed... The film about the Golden Gate Bridge and "jumpers" in San Francisco...I saw that too. I'm not sure, but didn't they finally put some type of screen/fence over it, so people can't jump as easily anymore? When I lived in San Diego, the Coronado Bridge was a popular suicide spot. Too scary for me...a lot of people survive those attempts and then end up with lifelong pain from breaking all the bones in their bodies. I'd rather have another round of therapy, lol...

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

My daughter called yesterday and I told her that he had reached another stage of the alopecia.. and she said.. “mom don’t you get all worried about him because he can feel you.. and your worry”..
So I tried to lighten it up and tried to change my mood.. but I worry..

I think your son does feel your feelings and thoughts, Jackie. So your daughter has a real important point in what she says. He can feel you worrying about him. Although, personally, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. At least he knows you love him...that you care about what he's feeling.

I don't think you can help but worry about your children. That's what moms do... We worry.

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

And I bet my son has no thoughts of anything bad he is just pissed off.. and its me with my insanity my cut offs that is thinking the way that I would think.. I don’t know..

That's a hard thing to deal with, IMO, especially if he is not talking about how he feels. Isolating one's self off from the world doesn't always mean depression. Sometimes it is just massive anger, sometimes an escape, sometimes a need to be alone for a while. I would listen to your gut instincts, Jackie. If you think he's just pissed off, that's probably what is going on with him. I think you have a pretty good handle on both your raised kids, Jackie.