[Vicar]

There is only one other thread in this category and I read it with interest. Everyone seems very caught up in making sure we don't compare adoption vs. abortion. Why? I believe its because those who want abortion to remain legal don't like the comparison. Its not simplifying to say that adoption is a better option. Its much more simplifying to say, "adoption is an alt. to parenting abortion is alt. to pregnancy"

Abortion is an end to pregnancy. It is a human life. Adoption is painful for many but its only one of two choices for anyone who truly believes what they carry inside them is a human life.

I guess I was blessed to have been given the opportunity to see aborted babies, to know the truth early. I simply cannot believe that those on the board who are so pro abortion have seen pictures of aborted babies cut up into pieces or read in detail when baby's heart beat begins or that they dream etc.

So to say the little slogan of abort. alt to preg. adopt. alt to parenting is insulting to me and to all the aborted babies of this world.

My father was adopted so I do have some experience of what an adoptee must go thru, and I gave a child up so I do understand that.

The agruments I have heard for abortion usually go something like this:

1)_ if we make abortion illegal women will die.

(read the facts on this women die from legal abortions too, and the large numbers of women who died from illegal ones were before antibiotics, go to abortion facts.com)

2) its a woman's choice, its her body.

(who speaks for the baby's rights, their body? )

3) its too emotionally difficult for some to give up their baby

(keep the baby then)

4) its to hard to raise the baby

(then opt for adoption at least you gave your baby life)

4) its not a baby until it breathes.

(babies breath fluid until they are born, and their heart beats, who are we to set an arbitrary concept of when life begins? Lets give the baby the benefit of the doubt)

5) you can put an abortion past you, adoption you can't

(if you love your child so much isn't it better to give them life, yes its tough, but its a life, enough said)

5) who are we to legislate what a woman does with her body

(why do we have laws against murder and child abouse?)



I could go on, but I can honestly say I have not heard one logical argument for abortion and yes there is a relationship between abortion and adoption. One is a loving difficult choice to give life, the other is a way out.


I know no one wants to have an abortion, I know its painful and scary and done with thought. But its a lie to say its okay. Everyone likes to slam the adoption agencies for making money, but what about the doctor who can make $100,000/yr doing abortions 1 or 2 days a week?


Please think about it babies are humans.

We need more support for crisis pregnancies, better adoption laws, more support for birth mothers and new attitudes towards sex. But we don't need to kill more children.

Sorry to offend but someone has to speak up for the babies!

[shirleyville]

I just wanted to say thank you -- from someone who is certainly thankful she didn't end up in pieces on the cutting room floor!
Hugs,
Sally

[MomTo1]

I support you 100%. If only the babies had voices. Thanks for giving them a voice.

[lemonchutney]

I also am grateful not to have been aborted. I think most people, adopted or not, feel this way.

We can argue until doomsday about the morality of abortion. Most people over the age of 18 have already figured out what they believe about it.

The question I would like to have someone answer is how would a prohibition on abortion be enforced? In the past, how was it enforced? Didn't those who were financially able go to countries where abortion was legal? And those who were not financially able found other methods. Are you just hoping to change the culture so that the majority believes it's wrong, or would you like to see a prohibition that is actually enforced? I hear loud and clear that you don't feel comfortable living in a society where women are allowed to end their pregnancies. I'm not super gung ho about it either, as most people are not. Seems to me the question is would you feel MORE comfortable living in a society that forces women against their will to carry their pregnancies to term? Would it be ok with you if women who are known to have unplanned pregnancies and considering abortion were automatically placed under house arrest, so as to prevent flight to another country or to an underground service? Vicar, I asked you this question in another thread and you didn't answer it. I'm hoping you might this time.

LC

[radiodoll]

LC, you go girl.

I am an adoptee who is "pro-abortion." The reason I am not "pro-choice" is that "choice" is inherent in human nature and is not regulated by anything but the indiviual. Laws have nothing to to with "choice." Women will ALWAYS choose, regardless of the laws and always have since the dawn of womenkind.

Abortion kills. Illegal abortion kills MORE. Stop the abuse and death of women in society.

Blessings -


Radiodoll

[sweetnoodle]

This is an "administrative law" (for lack of knowing how to define it) question in regards to No. 2:

how is it decided that one person's rights supercede the rights of another?

in this case, the proposition is that the unborn child's rights supercede the rights of the mother (and again, no one mentions the birthfather).

Please cite examples of current existing law where one person's rights supercede the rights of another before any criminal or civil action has taken place. Of course Roe v Wade comes to mind finding for the rights of the mother, but are there any other examples?

Hope this makes sense. I really am trying to work these issues out in my mind. I'm not sure what I believe about all these arguments. Some of the seem obvious, and I agree. Some of them seem too simplistic.

Sincerely,

[Vicar]

Dear Lc,

thanks for posting. Actually I did answer that questionon the other thread that I would not propose to put women under house arrest. How would we know which women want abortions? I said instead I would propose a much greater national investment in abstinence education, support for birth mothers, adoption assistance and follow up counseling, help for mothers who want to raise their children and cannot financially do so, etc.


As for making a law that is not really enforcable, what about drugs being illegal? what about murder, people still do it, we cannot stop them but it does not make it right.

Yes women will CHOOSE, but the mindset today with abortion being legal and oftened pushed on women, (read some facts about planned parenthood) its such an easy choice. Doing the right thing is difficult and not even supported.

Freedom of choice is the American way, but Life comes before liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That means we have to have LIFE FIRST. So the sanctity of human life should come before all.



Then we can go about making choices, which should include preserving human life. (if not why do we have to condone it by saying its legal?) That argument means we should not have one law we cannot enforce completely 100%

Thanks for letting me vent.

Vicar

[Vicar]

Dear Sweetnoodle,

Why is it a woman's "right" to end a pregnancy? I don't get that one, then why shouldn't a parent be allowed to kill their small children, they are also dependent on the parents for care to live, just as a baby in the womb is.
A newborn left to die in the trash is crime, but a baby aborted and thrown in the trash is just fine?


Radio doll, because more women may die over illegal abortions, does that mean we should condone the huge industry of death abortion is? please check out abortionfacts.com for facts on illegal abortion deaths.

Regards to all and thanks for sharing with me and everyone on this very important issue.

vicar

[twyla]

Hi, Vicar!

I agreed whole heartedly with your posting, but I have a more appropriate example for you to use with the following:

"5) who are we to legislate what a woman does with her body
(why do we have laws against murder and child abouse?)"

(why do we have laws against prostitution and substance abuse? And these activities have only consenting adults involved!)

If you like the example, feel free to use it in any future postings of yours. And good luck fighting the good fight to convince people to see the whole truth in this sad practice that ends babies' lives.

[Vicar]

Dear Twyla,

Thanks and thanks to all of those who have spoken up positively for life. Yes good example we do legislate what people do with their bodies, especially prostitution is a great example I really had not thought of. Once again this is also a law we cannot completely enforce, but its a law nonetheless.

vicar

[radiodoll]

Vicar -

Unfortunately, people are going to die. The question is "How Many."

Abortion kills people. Illegal Abortion kills more people.

Radiodoll

[mamasaid]

I wish people would just support the choices others make regarding this heated topic. Sorry to say, but my "right to life" to live my life is more important than the unborn. If it is in my body, and I don't want it, I am not going to have it. That is the way it is, and I 100% believe it is the way it should be.

My best friend is a pro-lifer, has blocked an abortion clinic or two , has been arrested for it and works at the legislative level for a republican who is pro-life. I disagree with her but I would completely support her choice to do whatever she wants with her body...baby or not.

I am kind of stumped why a living and breathing BORN adult shouldn't have the choice to do what she wants with her body if she is willing to accept the consequences. I understand the pro-life movement but I cannot agree with it. Being single and pregnant, I had heard the words "thank god you didn't abort" and my only response is "shut up. You don't know why I chose the choice I made and my decision is my own. I did not have children in the past because I was pro-life...but because it is my choice."

[Vicar]

Legal abortion kills many many many more children. (because there are more of them)

every abortion unless botched kills at least one, did you know that there are people who survived abortions, babies?

Usually when they are born alive the staff will just leave them to die, but sometimes they call for help and save the child.

sorry the illegal abortion will kill more women than legal argrument just does not work for me, especially when you look at the facts about illegal abortion deaths.

with all respect and love
vicar

[Vicar]

So you feel that a child who is not able to survive w/o its mother is not as worthy a human as its mother?

have you ever seen an aborted fetus?
sorry but CHOICE at the cost of human life means we do not value human life, that we assign value to human life. Following that logic we can start to eliminate any group of people we feel we are superior to.

Sorry choice is a euphemism for keeping legal the killing of children. But I respect that you respect others opinions, but no I cannot just let others do what they want.

Why do we care what anyone does then?
Its a crack dealer's choice to deal, Its a prostitute's choice to sell sex, its a mother's choice to abuse her child.

CHOICE is only relevant when we respect life first.

My respect to you but choice is not the issue

[Vicar]

Kelli,

you are right people look at it depending on where they are in life. I am sure pro abortion people would say that is why we need choice. But they are forgetting always that life is life, no matter how we twist it. I want to hear a pro-choice person say yes its okay to kill a baby, mamasaid I applaud you for being honest because basically you just about said that. But assigning values on human life is a scary road to travel. But they are just innocent children no one will miss them anyway right? Sorry I do not mean disrespect and I would like to see some answers to Kelli's comments.

Thanks to all