[cjoh831693]

We had two little girls placed with us in April 2010. We finalized adoption of our two daughters (they are 5 and 2) in early May of this year. Birth mom had visits while the case was still with CPS but never showed up or always tested positive for meth (both kids were positive as well when removed). Anyway, according to the court order she can have visits on their birthdays and Christmas with a clean hair follicle. Our oldests birthday is in November and that was the first time in 2 years the birth mom even expressed interest in seeing her. She had to pass a hair follice. She did pass which didn't surprise me as she is pregnant again and has stayed clean during all of her pregnancies only to go back to drugs within 2 months of having the babies. I spoke to her on the phone told her my expectations of the visit in detail. She assured me she would be appropriate and follow what we had discussed. Of course, from the moment we walked in the door, she broke every rule and more we had discussed. She cried from the moment we walked in which I had expressly told her not to. That is she couldn't hold it together she needed to leave the room, of course she refused. She tried to get my daughter to call her mommy several times (which she didn't). My daughter's response was no my mommy is getting my cake. Anyway, this didn't happen just once but repeatedly. She made constant comments about how she was just like her mommy. She tried holding her back from seeing other family members and she even went as far as telling her that she wanted to "hang out with her" and ask her when she was going to come live with her again. Just to remind you, this was our daughter 5th birthday party. There was no reason for her to endure this, thankfully she was settled and it didn't disrupt her. Fast forward to Christmas now. She has taken another hair follicle and passed. I called our lawyer and she suggested we draw up a list of rules for her to follow in writing and meet her before the visit and make her sign it and us sign it as well and include a clause that if she breaks any of the rules she forfeits any and all future visits until we deem them in our daughters best interest. She said it won't keep her from taking us back to court to get visitation but it will give us documentation if she does. What should I include. I know I want to include for her not to pull her to the side, she must sit at a designated table and not pull our daughter away. What other advice would y'all have? Thanks!

[RavenSong]

Seriously, you told her it was against the rules for her to cry? Although I know that emotional outbursts should be avoided for the child's sake, I do think it's unrealistic to expect her not to shed any tears. I would be careful in not setting her up to fail your expectations.

As far as calling herself "Mommy," you need to have an open and frank discussion with her about the terminology she's using in front of the kids. Perhaps the two of you could find a term of endearment that you're both comfortable with...such as one of the foreign words for mother.

I'm glad she's passed her recent hair follicle drug tests. At least she's trying... It's not inevitable that she'll always be strung out on crystal meth. I have a couple members in my extended family who were strung out for years but finally cleaned up (and more importantly, have stayed clean and sober for years.) It's hard work, but it's completely doable.

[belleinblue1978]

The whole not crying thing, let that go. You can't tell a person not to cry. I've cried at visits no matter how hard I tried to keep it together, and one of the things that has damaged my relationship with my son's mom is that she told me not to. I realize it isn't comfortable, but it is what it is.

People can and do get clean. Maybe some hope from you, that she can do that, would help. People can sense negative attitudes a mile away.

Discuss an endearment. It is REALLY hard to not be the mom when that is all you want and it is REALLY hard to watch your child call another woman mom. It breaks my heart still and I have been doing this OA thing for almost 8 years now.

I would skip having visits at birthday parties and such. That is a lot of unnecessary pressure and stress for everyone. If you want to have a visit near a holiday or birthday, do that, but I would suggest making it just you and firstmom.

[cjoh831693]

Let me further explain myself regarding the crying. It is a very emotional thing. I know that. I am coming from a stance that she is a VERY manipulative person and has done awful things to these kids yet the judge ordered visitations when we said we didn't feel it was in their best interest. I can't even begin to tell you what all she has drug these kids thru...it wasn't just drug use. Anyway, one way she manipulates is with her tears. She will scream and cry to the point she is gagging and I spoke to her and told her that that is the one thing that really upsets the oldest and that she really needs to control that. However, she didn't. As far as the mommy thing, I went into the visit knowing and accepting if my daughter called her mommy that was fine. She is a 5 year old, anyway she needs to make since of all this is completely acceptable. I even understand the.birth mom saying mom at times but the way she did it was deceptive and completely unacceptable. She pulled her away from the group and said "do u know who I am, I'm your mommy, you can call me mommy" I know its hard to convey everything that has happened.thru a thread but I have grace for everyone involved. We have been burned by her on so many occasions. She even manipulated cps caseworkers...she is good at that. Thankfully the Casa worker and supervisor saw thru it. I kust want whats best for the kids. They have.moved on. The youngest doesnt even know her and she has even made the comment that she doesnt even care to see her because there are too many bad memories attched to her. The oldest is another addiction for.her. She only wants to see her when she needs a "fix" and then shes disappears for a year or.longer. It's not a good situation. My goal is just to protect tge kids, mot me heartless to birthmom as it may have come across in the first post.

[KLL08]

Whew! I'm an amom so not sure if you are looking for advice from me or not, so take it or leave it.

I agree with PP making a rule for no crying seems a bit harsh, but I of course don't know the full circumstances of your situation with your children and their birth mother. I'd let that one go. Because I have a feeling at our next visit I'll be the one crying! Because I'll be so excited it's actually worked out.
I can understand the frustration at her wanting to be called Mommy...even if I personally don't have an issue with S calling her first mom Mom, Mommy, Momma, whatever comes out on any particular day. I know the tone of voice she has when she calls me Mommy or Momma and its a bit different so I know who she's talking to. But I'm sure I'd be different if my child came from CPS to join our family. I'd work on a different name together.

I also agree on having a visit without all the extended family around. Do you have a visitation center nearby? I know our county has one where supervised visits happen when the kids are still in CPS but also later if the families want to use it. It looks like a regular house making it more cozy for the kids...just a thought.

I'm so sorry it hasn't gone as planned in the past, I hope you can work together to make future visits better. ((hugs))

[KLL08]

Just saw your latest post...the crying to the point of gagging would be too much for me too. If that happened again I think I'd try to help her to the bathroom to compose herself before coming back out, in the kindest way possible...

[ruth74]

Especially if she's as manipulative as that, it might backfire to say no crying. I might put in something about your daughter being upset by her crying, and that if your daughter is upset, bmom will have to excuse herself and the visit can resume when she is calm, and that if bmom refuses you will end the visit.

As far as what to call her goes, I might ask the kids. The 2-year-old might be less than helpful, but it may be an opportunity for the 5-year-old to have some control over the situation. Having the guidelines come primarily from the kids and their needs (including those needs they express) might be really helpful legally as well, as long as you are careful to approach it with them as you wanting to make it work, and needing their input on what they need.

If it were me I would say I need to see and hear everything that happens between them. Your girls were removed from her care and custody for a reason, and it would take a lot of time and proof of lasting change for me to have any comfort level around their safety at all.

I would probably not say that all future visits will be cancelled if she doesn't follow the rules. I would say that I would give her a reminder, and if she continued I would end the visit immediately. However, she might need to have that limit enforced clearly in order to get it, and having one or more visits end could be what she needs to take the rules seriously, where cutting off all contact and ending up in court could just cause worse ill feelings, and give you less credibility with your limits in the future if the judge orders visitation to resume.

[cjoh831693]

Thanks you for your responses. It definitely gives me some things to think about. The last thing I want is to "set her up to fail" I just want to protect the kids and their emotional well-being. The 5 year old has really struggled with all she has been through in her short life and is finally at a good place where she now feels safe and secure and I don't want anything to disrupt that. As far as the extended family...they are a BIG support to my my husband and I. They support us 100% and know how the birth mom has been and how she is. I am glad that birthmom has so far produced two clean hair follicles...she did the same with all of her other pregnancies (she is currently pregnant with her 4th child). After the birth of each child she has gone back to drugs and her promiscuous ways withing just a couple of months. It is hard to see that this one will be any different until I can see proof of it. I want to think she can make it... I hope she can but I cannot compromise the emotional well-being of these kids if history is going to repeat itself or if she's just gonna disappear ago for 2 more years.

[belleinblue1978]

Ok, knowing what I now know about the crying, that is different, far different, from what I was picturing. When I got told to quit crying it was a soft crying and my son was 3 months old and I was still grieving really hard. I also placed voluntarily, which makes things different. I'd ask her to go to the bathroom and compose herself and walk with her and tell her that her behavior is frightening to the children and she needs to get herself under control or the visit stops. I have cried like that after visits, definitely, deep gut wrenching sobbing, but my Kiddo doesn't need to see that.

I'd still reccomend not inviting her to events with extended family. You need to be able to monitor all conversations she has with your daughters. You can't do that if you are worried about entertaining etc. Events like that are stressful for all involved, just skip it. Meet at McDonalds or something and supervise the whole thing.

I'm not saying her manipulation is right, but I'm guessing that her past includes some violent relationships? If it does, one of the things that is important to remember is that she only knows how to get her needs met by manipulation. That doesn't make it right. What it means is that you have to have some firm boundaries and show her that you will be true to your word and that she doesn't need to manipulate to have an hour long visit once every few months and that if she can behave that mayve the relationship can grow.

[ladyjubilee]

Originally Posted by cjoh831693

What other advice would y'all have? Thanks!

I think some of the advice you're getting is from the point of domestic infant adoption and doesn't factor in the whole what it takes to have a child removed and placed in care point of view. In my view, some of the advice would enable the behavior and encourage escalation. Whatever the cause of her issues, in my view you aren't her parent or her mental health practicioner. You can't make it right for her.

I personally wouldn't try to play the power play game---that's what the whole mommy thing, pulling your child aside thing and outrageous crying ploys are, a power play. You've had two visits in which the rules weren't followed and boundaries weren't respected. Maybe having the lawyer set up rules will help, but if it were me, I'd be the one taking it back to court. I'd have the next visit supervised by your agency with a trained social worker who can document the behavior---and hopefully someone at the party also filmed the behavior. Then take that documentation to the judge and break the power struggle. Then hopefully you can try again with enforceable boundaries.

[cjoh831693]

As the previous poster correctly stated, this was not an infant adoption. The youngest child was a 6 month old at the time of removal but was removed because of neglect and drugs which she test at a critical level. The 5 year old was 2 at the time and has endured more than what most have in a lifetime. The rules are not "punish" birth mom but to establish boundaries and get her to see, if she can, that the children's emotional needs need to come before her own. Having said that, Here is an agreement I have drawn up. I did tell her that after the last visit we were meeting before hand and there would be rules put in place so there is not a recurrence of what happened at the last visit. I have removed names but you will get the jist of the document. Let me know what y'all think?
Based on previous indiscretions during visits, these rules are being implemented to preserve the emotional well-being of K and R.


We, (adoptive parents) and (birth parent) agree that these are in the best interest of the children. If at anytime we, the adoptive parents feel the emotional well-being of the children is being compromised we have the right to bring it to the attention of the birth parent. This agreement contains but is not limited to the following rules:

Birth parent, will control her emotions in front of the children. If at any time, she feels she cannot, she will excuse herself and the visit can resume when she is calm. If after being asked to excuse herself by anyone present and she chooses to stay in the room, the visit will end.

Adoptive parents, need to see everything that happens and hear everything that is said. Therefore, even when (adoptive parents), the children, and (birth parent) are in the same room, (birth parent) may not pull the children to the side nor whisper to them.

There will be no attempts made by (birth parent) at trying to get the children to call her “mom”, “momma”, “mommy” or any other variation of the word. If they choose to do so, it is a choice they will make but it will not be forced upon them.

Birthparent, further agrees not to ask the children when they are coming to live with her or tell them she wants to “hang out” in any form or fashion. (birth parent), has been informed and knows the terms of the adoption and visitations as explained by the court and subsequent relinquishment with attached visitation agreement. The visit will abruptly end if this rule is violated.

(adoptive parents) agree to continue visits as agreed upon in the adoption order which are on the childrens’ birthdays and a visit during the Christmas holiday as long as a clean hair follicle is presented before each visit by the birth parent All of this is expressly stated in the aforementioned adoption agreement reviewed by the court and signed by the judge.

The rules outlined in the document as pertaining to (birthparent), the children as well as (adoptive parents) shall be explicity followed or this visit as well as any future visits will abruptly come to an end.

If for any reason there is a refusal to sign this agreement by (birth parent) we the adoptive parents, will view it as a direct refusal to do what is in the best interest of the children and it may affect the venue, and direction of all future visits.


Signed this ______ day of ____________ 2012 _________________________________
birth parent

_____________________________ _____________________________
adoptive parents

[momraine]

Two things, first did you mean to put your kids names in that last post? Cause if you did that's fine, but if you didn't want to do that and it was an accident I can fix that. My other thing is I agree on not making the visits with other people, make them at a park or an indoor playground or children's museum or somewhere so that if she is pulling stuff you can leave right away with the kids. Just drive away (and go get ice cream or something fun so the kids don't feel like they were being punished to have to leave a fun place) I would be sure to have hubby or another trusted adult with you, so one of you can escort her aside to let her know if she keeps it up you are leaving and the other can stay with the kids

[cjoh831693]

If you can remove their names that would.be great. It was unintentional.

[jmd5294]

I go so far as to visit with my son's birthmom and birthdad separately. We do lunch someplace casual, my treat, and then we leave b/c it's naptime after lunch.
It's just easier, less pressure for everyone involved. Bios are not together, but are friendly and on speaking terms, so I could have them together, but I just don't.
Right now, when we visit with birthmom, it's JUST birthmom, my son, and me. Ditto for bd.

And ditto on the pp who said no visits on holidays, birthdays, large get togethers, etc. Too much extra emotion, and a lot of times, too much resentment from us (the adoptive parents) for "interrupting the holiday".
Ours was also an involuntary adoption from foster care, and my son is FAE. birthmom has a lot of anger over the whole adoption, and I have a lot of resentment over what she did to my son. But we are both working hard on having a positive relationship. If she weren't working as hard as I am, I don't think we'd be able to do it.
Hugs, and good luck. It is hard when birthmom isn't on the same page.

[belleinblue1978]

I really don't think any of us were suggesting that she act as a mental health practioner or her mother. I do think that setting good boundaries in a situation like this is super important so that she can't manipulate, it is good for the kids and as a side effect, good for her too.

I also wouldn't feel bad about keeping visits short if I were you. I can only handle about two hours or so as a firstmom. Again, I am well aware that the situation is entirely different, but I think some of the emotions might be the same.