[crick]

This has the potential to get heated, so I just ask that you participate respectfully and what I'm hoping is that we all really try to see another's point of view and feelings to gain more understanding between us all.

Sometimes I read threads and realize depending which side of the triad we are on, our perceptions are very different on the same situation. I wonder if some of us are truly seeing the situation for what it is and basing opinions on it or are we only really drawing from our personal side/experience?

For example...

If a first mom posts the following...

"My agency lied to me and treated me unfairly", it seems that the posts that follow are more geared towards "You seem bitter and negative and need to "let go".

If an adoptive mom posts the same statement, it seems that the posts following are more along the lines of "You shouldn't take that! You should sue them!"

Another example...

If an adoptive mom posts

"I'm worried about bonding with my child because he'll already be 4 months old", it seems we tell her "Don't worry, babies can adapt and with the "right" bonding techniques, he'll attach."

Yet, if a first mom posts that she is legally changing her mind about placement and wants her 1 month old baby back, we are bound to see posts of "Obviously it's your decision, but you need to really think about the baby because he's bonded with his amom now and he'll grieve that loss."

So...do we tend to post "in favor" or "side with" the part of the triad we are on? Can we truly ever be objective about our perceptions?

Thoughts?

[Dickons]

Good post Crick,

I see what you are saying and agree with you. As an adoptee I think we try to see both sides and then also get the same 'opposite' points of view.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[dpen6]

Crick,

Here's the thing...being in my position and living my life in my position as an old adoptee I am able to see right through it all And yes, it depends on the "side" of the parentage on what is going to be said. I have had many a adoptive parent and birth parent infer that I really didn't know what it was like for them and to back out because I..ME...that one that was adopted...And the ADoption being a good thing for me don't really understand. I have been told to read books, I have been told I am an angry adoptee, I have been accused of not being compassiante enough. I have been told that its NOT just about the adoptee(the children folks), I have been told HOW I "should" feel about my situation and it goes on.

That is the intial reaction from most folks towards adoptee in real life.

Then there are the many birth and adoptive parents that do make a real attempt to see the "truth" but it is a long time for many to get to that point.

People react to adoptive situaions based upon their own situation, needs and what pablum has been feed to them about adoption.

Adoption for everyone invovled is a sad situation intially. Birthmoms need to lose a child, adoptive parents(some) ned to suffer infertitlity and the child loses what most people take for granted...biomother and family....that is all what comes first...then you can talk about the "mircle, joy, happiness.." but peole are suffering before that happens.

Its is precisely the attiudes of who is saying what is right for the "baby" that makes me sad because it IS often about the "side" one is on and not waht the baby REALLY needs.

[zxczxcasdasd]

In my totally amateur opinion, I think we instinctually tend to feel compassion for the same hurts that we have felt, and we instinctually rise to defend against the offenses we ourselves have suffered.

I don't think we necessarily have to set aside our own feelings and experiences, but we do need to be willing to see beyond them to consider greater principles and the hurts and offenses against others in order to consider situations ethically and humanely for all concerned rather than from our own corner.

That sounded a little like psychobabble, but it's early on in the thread- maybe things will get a little more specific as we go...

[bethy724]

Your opinion, unfortunatly, depends which "side" your coming from. I don't feel like there are any "sides" or winners or loosers - my happiest day was my sons bio sibling & bio mom's worst day of their lives - how can I rejoice in that? Adoption is not a win-win situation - adoptive parents may feel some guilt in their happiness & joy in their children knowing there is a person out there, no matter what they did, suffering & missing their child. (my son came thru fc)

On top of the "sides" you have the "know it all's" that just saw 20/20 or dateline & want to inform you how blessed or lucky your child is because you adopted them. It makes no sense to me that a person should be "lucky" to have shelter & food & love - seems like a right most take for granted.

[crick]

Dpen - Do you feel though that you DO know where an aparent or bparent is coming from? Or is it more that you want to point out "Hey...quit your squabbling and focus on the child"?
From their side of things, it's not always about the child of course, and that I'm sure hacks off you/adoptee to no end. I know for myself, sometimes I just need to focus on ME and it's not that I'm ignoring my children's best interests etc., but working out 1 piece of the puzzle and I am a part of that puzzle. So I likely appear to be selfish at times when I'm not trying to do that, if that makes sense.

As for not feeling like you are listened to or told you have no clue, I know that is evident in some posts I see. And interestingly enough, because of my experience as a parent and also wife of an adoptee, I know that I personally tend to trust my instincts on certain topics regarding adoptees more than I do regarding bparents, because I have zero instincts from the bparent side.

When an adoptee says "I would like to meet my bparents" I wish people wouldn't assume it means "I hate adoption" or "I don't love my aparents". Sure, it *could* mean that, but it's not a good assumption to automatically make. And this is a perfect example of perceptions made with the same situation. If a bparent says "I wish I could meet my bchild", it is met with less "opposition".

Zx - You said it much simply and to the point! I should delete my above rambling! LOL!

Bethy - I think the loss/joy perception is a great example. It's another one of those "balance" things for me personally. I as an aparent do not typically view the threads of "I'm so happy, our finalization is over!" as anything but a thread of joy. Meaning, my first thought is "congratulations" and not "oh, what a painful loss for both bmom and child". Logically of course I know and am aware of loss, but that isn't my perception of those threads, whereas a bparent reading might have that. It's not that I'm without compassion, but on that thread, my post will be geared towards the joy.

[kretzklan]

I post of a few forums and it seems here I stay pretty much on the adoptive parent side of things...but I know that both birth parents and adoptees can read my vents and my blog is open to the world. I'm a blantantly honest person and sometimes I forget that I could be hurting someone else. I don't mean to do that. I take adoption as very personal - there are no two stories alike. I read so many threads that I don't respond to, because I haven't been there. I try to only respond if I have some life experience. Anyway, back to my original point - a few months ago, an adoptee commented that she had hated reading my posts about issues with my adopted children - she felt hurt by how I felt towards them (if you don't know my story - 2 PI kids with attachment disorder and a lot of crazy pain on all sides!). However, she had realized that I only speak my truth because someone else may learn something from it. Where I get upset is when someone sits in judgement of another person that they probably don't understand. Is it ok for an adoptive parent to be thrilled when they receive a child through an adoption plan? Sure. Is it ok for the birthparent to grieve and even feel pushed into that situation - sure. Is is ok for that child to grow up and not feel loss and sadness? Sure...but it's also ok if they do.
I must say that it's hard for me to understand the sorrow for parents who 'lost' their children. I mean parents, who through their own misdeeds, had children removed from them. I'm not talking about poverty...but abuse, neglect and daily trauma. My children suffered tremendously at their birth parent's hands/minds/spirits. They were broken by these people - I personally have no good will towards them. Yes, without them I would not have my children - but without them, my children would be whole.
Did I even address the topic at hand?

[MamaTo6]

I post and read on a few different forums. I definately think THIS forum is more pro adoption than some, so ofcourse we will read more posts in favour of adoption here. KWIM?

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by crick

Dpen - Do you feel though that you DO know where an aparent or bparent is coming from? Or is it more that you want to point out "Hey...quit your squabbling and focus on the child"?

Yes, I often want to point that out because I often see the "true" needs of the child lost. Do I know where a bparent or aparent is coming from ...no....but I certianly have a differnt presceptive then either the aparent or bparent as I am the DAUGHTER of both.I am the outcome...I am the reason. I say that in a general way of course.Lord I hope I am not that self centered....LOL....I guess I mean to say all adoptees are the reason for adoption.right?




From their side of things, it's not always about the child of course, and that I'm sure hacks off you/adoptee to no end. I know for myself, sometimes I just need to focus on ME and it's not that I'm ignoring my children's best interests etc., but working out 1 piece of the puzzle and I am a part of that puzzle. So I likely appear to be selfish at times when I'm not trying to do that, if that makes sense.

Crick Are you talking adoption or parenting....those .IMO are 2 differnt things. As a parent we do have to take care of yourselves in order to parent as well as we can. In terms of adoption my hackles are raised when the adoption is for the parents and in others words the feeling of entitlement that can occur when infertility comes into play or an adoptee is thrown with the fact that
"You don't understand what I have been through" and it is up to the adoptee on some deep level to fix the parents needs....(both adoptive and birth). I rewally feel. based upon some of the squabbles I have seen where the child has been reduced to a object...that angers me to no end.

BTW.....I really don't think YOU have to worry...from what I have read you got it right!!!



As for not feeling like you are listened to or told you have no clue, I know that is evident in some posts I see. And interestingly enough, because of my experience as a parent and also wife of an adoptee, I know that I personally tend to trust my instincts on certain topics regarding adoptees more than I do regarding bparents, because I have zero instincts from the bparent side.

When an adoptee says "I would like to meet my bparents" I wish people wouldn't assume it means "I hate adoption" or "I don't love my aparents". Sure, it *could* mean that, but it's not a good assumption to automatically make. And this is a perfect example of perceptions made with the same situation. If a bparent says "I wish I could meet my bchild", it is met with less "opposition".

Thats the point there are judgments made about the childs needs and it is the adoptee that has to deal with the mothers judgemnts and not be themselvesbecause they were adopted.

Zx - You said it much simply and to the point! I should delete my above rambling! LOL!

Bethy - I think the loss/joy perception is a great example. It's another one of those "balance" things for me personally. I as an aparent do not typically view the threads of "I'm so happy, our finalization is over!" as anything but a thread of joy. Meaning, my first thought is "congratulations" and not "oh, what a painful loss for both bmom and child". Logically of course I know and am aware of loss, but that isn't my perception of those threads, whereas a bparent reading might have that. It's not that I'm without compassion, but on that thread, my post will be geared towards the joy.

My responses are imbedded in the post

[lovemy2boys]

This topic is so multifaceted for me that I it's hard to come up with a coherent answer.

I've worked/tried REALLY REALLY hard to be objective - well, as obective as a person who's only been on one side of the (three sided ) coin can be. But in all honesty, I couldn't be very objective until I worked out some of my OWN issues.

There are still some things that put me on the defense straight away, but I generally try to pull myself out of the equation, and most times I can see where others are coming from. I'm not always successful though.

At times, I can be harder on my own "side" of the triad than I am on the other two sides...I think it comes from the whole "painted with the same brush" mindset...

[EZ2Luv]

dpen6 said exactly what I was thinking.

I think many times there definately is a bias no matter how mauch a person might insist otherwise.

Some of these biases come out subtly in posts and others not so subtle.
I think too for me where I read all the forums and post in many I think I see it alot more. I like to see this site as "we are all in this together" but that is not reality. As an adoptee I find myself posting in aparents forums and bparents forums, but sometimes I feel like because I just an adoptee, on a handful of people get what I am trying to say.

I would think adoptees like dpen and myself who have had good adoption experiences would be able to shed alot more light on things then if say an angry adoptee came here with guns blazing.

While it should ALWAYS be about the baby/child that somehow get lost in the mix of aparents wanting to be parents no matter what. This is what gets me the most.
Somehow the fact that this baby is a human being and that their is a bmom hurting is forgotten.


Thanks for this thread Crick. After a certain thread getting my blood boiling yesterday, it could not have come at a better time.

EZ

[quantum]

I try to be diplomatic.
My son told me that his mom lived in terror the first few months they had him because she was afraid I would take him back, that made me feel so sad! I was so determined that adoption was right and I wished that we'd had the option of an open adoption so that we could have talked about it and I would have (hopefully) eased her fears.
Of course, she's not to keen on us being in reunion, but what can I do? Everyone who knows her just says to give her time. *shrug*

I feel like I am more sympathetic towards birthmothers, or potential birthmothers, but that's because I that's what I am. I feel like I have some sympathy towards adoptive mothers, I have a dear friend who I've been there for throughout her infertility issues, so I have some understanding of that.

I have issues with blanket statements. On any part of the triad, but maybe I am less likely to jump on someone who makes one who I happen to 'know' from these forums. Does that make sense? But I guess it's like if I know a bit of their story, perhaps I understand a bit more of where a statement comes from.

Interesting topic

[rd200]

I definetly think you have more sympathy for a person whom is on the same side of the isle as you. I am not a birthmother, therefore can't know what she is going through. i am not adopted, so i dont have any experiences with that. i am in the process of waiting for a match as an adoptive parent, so i try to post on things i know more info about than things i dont.

There are definetly times where i feel like there are so many different blanket statements made that its unfair to certain "sides" of the triad. (i think someone siad something about the blanket statements too) anyways, like, i am an adoptive parent so when there are posts that say in a nutshell, "MOST aparents are just out to get your baby and will lie, cheat, and do whatever is possible to get your baby," that kinda pisses me off cuz i know i personally wouldnt do that. And the best one for me, which makes me heated everytime i read it is in a nutshell, "Aparents can, will and most of the time do, get divorced, turn into addicts, alcoholics, abusers, horrible people, and generally none of us can be trusted."

Now, yes, we are all human and yes something could happen where we might get divorced, no one can promise that they will be together forever and just because maybe they did get divorced, doent mean that the majority of aparents get divorced, or the majority of aparents like automatically turn into horrible people once they have your baby. I'm sure that some birthparents have experienced this, and that sucks. But i know that i CAN guarantee i would never turn into an abuser, alcoholic, or addict.

I also think that if you arent all for OPEN adoption you might as well pack it up and not post anything about your thoughts of a semi open or closed adoption. From personal experience witha few posts from when i first was a member, i was shocked how if you arent 100 on board with oadoption, you are doing the wrong thing. Not everyone is going to want an oadoption, not every birthmother or every aparent is going to beable to do an OA nor is it right for every situation or family. I do think that there are alot of biased toward OA and i honestly cringe when a new person posts a thread that says, OPEN OR SEMI-OPEN, cuz i feel bad for them cuz they will get some pretty strong opinions on OA. I"m not saying that OA is bad by anymeans, but instead of forcing the idea on someone, i think you should only share how your experiences have been and let them make up their own minds.

I just think that some advice given to people whom come here on the birthparent side is biased. Like i said, i'm not a birthparent so i dont really know, but i remember a post on here a while ago, (i dont usually post or read on this side) where the women and her boyfriend had decided almost 100% to make an adoption plan and i believe were wondering about wether or not to use and agency or to use a lawyer or whatnot, but they were pretty darn sure about themselves and they got so many responses telling them they were doing the wrong thing and nothing about the questions she actually asked!!! And i do believe that some of the posters had good intentions, but she wasnt looking for a lecture, only info about what she needed.

I think we do try to convince people on our "side" to do what we would do, or to not do what we did. I would however say that i feel very odd posting on the birthparent part because i dont want anyone to think that i am like, patrolling for birthmother to talk them into adoption or something. Ya know? Does anyone else think that or am i just weird??? Like i said, these are just my opinions for what they're worth. Rach

[crick]

RD - you bring up a good example regarding "same situation/different perception based on triad experience".
A lot of times I see aparents taking more flak for not wanting an open adoption than I do for bparents or of course adoptees.

If an aparent posts "Only want closed", they get more judgement. Whereas if a bparent posts that, it garners more sympathy.

Same would go for if an aparent closes an adoption vs. a bparent closing an adoption. The perceptions are different based on the triad experience for some.

While I do believe most people try to speak with their experience AND try to treat each situation as unique, it's interesting to me how much our experiences and even stereotypes shape our responses.

Dpen - I am not forgetting your question...still forumlating.

And others as well... I just had a "jumpstart" thought when I saw the post by RD and wanted to get my response in before I lost it. lol!

[belleinblue1978]

Well I live on two sides, so I guess I have some different perspectives.

Yes, adoption is about the child, BUT I come here to work on my issues with my son's adoption, and I don't need to be constantly reminded, especially when posting in the birthparent section, that adoption is about him. I haven't forgotten that, in fact I am more acutely aware of that than most people. I need a place where I can work on things so that I can be a good firstmom to him. So enough with being reminded all the time, I placed him for him, not for me, this isn't about me, but some of my feelings are very about me. I would expect that my first mom feels the same.

I really try to see things from the other person's side. Granted there are times when I don't really want to, but I try. I do truly believe that some things are indefensible. Closing an adoption, whether it be a first parent or an adoptive parent, not ok at all. Making promises you don't intend to keep, not ok. Referring to people disrespectfully, no matter who you are, not ok.

I live in a world where if I say one thing, an entire part of my experience gets discounted because I am the other.

One other thing that bugs me, and don't take offense please Crick , is reading over and over, I'm married to an adoptee so I know XYZ. Ok, yeah it gives you some perspective, and you know what he or she has told you, but you still didn't live it and people don't tell people everything. I don't see that with, "I adopted a kid, so I know XYZ about being adopted" as often.