[zxczxcasdasd]

I'm really not a thread starter but I had a conversation with my son J yesterday that got me thinking and I wanted to explore it further here.

Being that J is himself the product of a teen pregnancy, the subject of teen pregnancy or unplanned pregnancy is not an uncommon one around our house. It just comes up because, well, it's part of our story as a family. J, at 19, is already older than his father was when J was born and his dad was the sole custodial parent from pretty much the beginning.

Anyway, as much as we've covered preventing pregnancy, it occurred to me that I hadn't really gone over with him what his rights and responsibilties would be in the case (God forbid) an unplanned pregnancy did occur where he was the father. So I explained to him what putative father registries are and what he would need to do should he wish to assert or retain his parental rights to any potential child.

He was horrified to learn that a girl could potentially place his child for adoption in a putative registry state without his knowledge if he hadn't registered there, or that by simple putting "unknown" down for the father, he could just be excluded from the whole process and his child could be adopted without any notification or consent from him. As the mother of a young man (and another one getting there), and the wife of a man who as a teen father did raise his own child, I agree that this seems unjust to fathers.

On the other hand, there are several first moms here whom I highly respect who I know made the choice to proceed with the adoption without either identifying or seeking consent from the fathers of their children and I believe did so thoughtfully and with significant reasons.

So I'm feeling philosophically torn.

I guess my question is...do fathers have a fundamental right to be notified and asked for consent regarding their children whether the mother wishes to or not? Or, do mothers have the fundamental right to choose what happens to their child without having to seek consent from it's father or even notify him if they do not wish to?

If the answer it, "it depends," on what does it depend?

If a man expresses no interest in parenting, or is a general jerk, early in the pregnancy, is he just "out" of the process from then on, or does he get the chance to make the final decision only after the child is born as the mother does?

Are there any adoptive parents who would not proceed with an adoption without the notification and consent of the father? I'm also wondering if any aparents knew that the mother of their child knew the identity of the father, but did not wish to reveal it and so he was not notified or asked for consent.

I can see there are many sides to the issue other than the one closest to us personally (the father's angle) so I'm hoping for some more input from people who have lived the various angles other than ours (first mothers and adoptive parents).

Thank you in advance for sharing!!

[mommamarci]

Both of my sons had fathers that were TPR'ed using the registry. I have very mixed feelings about it. I wish the fathers had been notified, but we cannot force the mothers to name them.

In the first adoption, bmom was engaged to bdad. But bdad did not want his name in any paperwork and asked her to put unknown the birth certificate and to let the registry TPR him. I feel at ease about that situation. He is a very private person and did not want us to know his full name. But, he was definitely aware. Bmom and dad have since married. He sees the updates we send.

Our second adoption, I know nothing about. Mom did not know she was pregnant until very late in the pregnancy. I am not sure if she even knows who the father is. She did not name and we have no contact so I cannot find out any additional info. That situation bothers me. I wish he knew. I wish he had been given the chance to parent if he wished.

I think the putative registry should be a very last resort. There has to be a last resort because sometimes people just seem to disappear. It is not fair to make aparents spend months and thousands of dollars trying to track down a person that disappeared. But, I think there should be a minimum amount of searching that must be done before resorting to the registry.

Just my $0.02!

[MamaS]

There was a rerun on Dr Phil yesterday (7-25) focussing on a young man who DID know about the baby, DID want to marry the birthmother or supporther and the baby or have custody of the baby and DID have a family support system who would have helped him raise the baby. Unfortunately, he DID NOT KNOW about his state's putative father registry -- AND HIS LAWYER DID NOT KNOW EITHER! So, the birthmom and her parents gave the baby for adoption to family friends. They can see the baby grow up (they see her several times a month) but he can't even meet the adoptive parents or get photo updates or anything.
The state of Florida passed a law that said any birthmother giving up a baby for adoption who stated that the father was "unknown" had to advertise in the paper for her previous sex partners to give then a chance to come forward and be DNA tested. Of course, the law was struck down immediately because it invaded the "privacy" of the mother.
So, a girl can get pregnant and decide w/o father's consent to terminate or continue the pregnancy. If she terminates, he can't stop it. If she continues, she can: A - Keep the baby. identify the father and request child support.
B - Keep the baby, request no support and not identify the father.
C - Make an adoption plan for the baby and declare father "unknown".
BUT - IF LATER SHE AND THE FATHER GET BACK TOGETHER, she can tell him about the baby and he can file to have adoption overturned if he lives in a state without a putative registry.
Does seem like this is one situation where the woman has more power, doesn't it?

[zxczxcasdasd]

There is no denying that the ability to give or withhold information about the father or to the father is, essentially, in the woman's hands, whether she terminates, places, or parents.

But it's not so much my intention to rail against the imbalance of power that biology, in part, creates as much as it to really explore given all the different variables, which fundamental right trumps the other --the father's right to know and right to consent, versus the woman's right to choose for her child or control the information as it may potentially impact her child.

I can see strong arguments both ways. I can see hurt on both ends.

I'm hoping that some first moms who've dealt with this in different ways might be willing to share and that adoptive families would also share how they have handled the issue.

At this point, since I can mostly see it from the father's side based on my life, I'm hoping that I can get some input and gain some understanding from the other sides affected by the issue.

I know I've seen first moms resolute in their decision to withhold information, and I've seen first moms also regret their decision to do so. I'm hoping some will share.

And, I'd love to hear from more adoptive families who've dealt with the issue, about how they handled it, what they think.

Thanks for sharing.

[BethanyB]

I saw the Dr. Phil show and I was totally disgusted by that case. The father wanted to be a father. The mother did not want to parent the child but did not want the father to either. To me that is not fair. He kept calling and calling trying to work something out. The girls father took him out to dinner to get him to agree to the adoption. The guy would not even consider it. He wanted the child in his life and everyone knew that. So the father of the girl said that she would have an abortion then. And they led this guy to believe that is what happened.

Then the poor guy finds out that she did not abort and placed the baby for adoption even though that is not what he wanted. To make it TEN times worse, the girl gave the child to her parents FRIENDS! So her and her family get to see the baby whenever they want and the father of the child has NO RIGHTS!!! The judge ruled that because this man did not sign a registry that he didn't even know about - that either lawyer from both sides didn't even know about until this case - he has no rights to his baby. That is the worse case of injustice I have ever heard. And wait until this little girl grows up to find this out.

I think the registry is the most ridiculous thing ever.

[thanksgivingmom]

I'm working on this one H.....I know that what I did wasn't "right." At the time though, I truly couldn't see past the "wrongs" he did to see my "wrongs" you know?

It became a parenting decision that I was protecting Cupcake. I mean, people tend to understand if you protect your child from someone on drugs, from someone that is dangerous physically, from someone that has other concrete examples of poor behavior.

But from someone that just doesn't want them to exist? It's harder to understand. I truly believed that his opinion on Cupcake WAS dangerous. Yes, not in the same way perhaps that someone that's physically violent is, but the scars aren't any less tragic.

Like I said, I think I have more to say, but I'm definitely still working through it on my own....

Also, sometimes it's hard to admit things about birthfathers....I believe that it reflects on me in a huge way. That I was having sex with this person despite all these flaws that I now see as being clear indicators of someone that I wouldn't want as my child's father. Were I raising Cupcake I wouldn't want him very involved. I know that's not fair, but I wouldn't. And although I don't share them, I have my reasons.

[bprice215]

I so wish I knew now what I didn't know then, I'd have fought for my daughter to parent her. Oh how that would have changed my life for the better. But that is all hindsight and doesn't change the facts of the case. There are injusticeses everyday performed by those that are doing it for the child and in their eyes there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. But I would never ever subject myself to that fact because I couldn't live with the fact of knowing what you know or how you were treated. I am sorry.
bprice215

[browneyes0707]

I'm totally supportive of father's rights, always have been. The choice to initially hide my decision to place my DD stems from the fact that my ex wanted nothing to do with me or my decision making process. The messed up part is for 4 months, he couldn't even tell me he wanted nothing to do with me, he'd promise he'd be there and then run when I tried to talk to him. He ditched me and hung up on me and then apologize and then he did it again. We eventually had a falling out, in which I made my decision not to terminate as I told him I would.

I wanted him there. I wanted him to help me make decisions and voice his opinions. He chose not to. If he wanted to parent, he should have told me and I would have listened. But he chose not to. I put up with several months of his back and forth behavior because I wanted him to step up. And whether it be guilt or just plain sheer fear that made him act that way, I don't know. But I shouldn't have had to bear the brunt of it.

I didn't keep it from him intentionally, I always wanted him to know and be a part of it, but after we had a huge fight, I'll admit I enjoyed the silence and the lack of aggrivation. I wasn't sure if he'd listen to me anyway. I was going to tell him after the fact, but because the state in which I placed required me to attempt to let him know. So I did, and he came around, at least in the respect that he gave me some support at the end. He didn't fight the adoption, nor did he express any interest in parenting.

I never regretted having to tell him before hand. I'm glad he had the opportunity to speak up if he wanted to, to be a part of at least the last few months. But had I not been told I had to, I wouldn't have, I'd have waited until I had "proof" that I indeed had a child. I'm glad you are teaching your son to have respect for women, and to be proactive in the face of an unplanned pregnancy to know what his rights are. To answer your question, I think for every woman who puts "unknown" down for the father, there is a woman who desperately wants the father to be involved, but he's declined the opportunity. And it's important for a man to know that he has that opportunity and to take advantage of it, whatever the decision is. If you want the rights, use them. I found out a few years later that my ex was pro-life but never once did he tell me that during the course of my pregnancy, and it wasn't for lack of him feeling he couldn't. He chose not to.

[zxczxcasdasd]

This is where I'm philosophically torn...

Yeah, brown, you definitely got the "but what if he's a big jerk?" scenario. But I do know that he was ultimately told, and before the adoption was completed.

In theory, I think we all want everyone to have equal rights and responsibilties...but in practice, I think there are situations where a woman judges that the father of her unborn is not a fit father and uses her judgment as a mother to do what she believes to be in the best interests of the child, even if it means denying the man his due process...because the child's welfare is judged to be more important than his rights. (I think this is what you're saying TG?...correct me if I'm wrong.)

See as much as I am glad hubby asserted his rights and would want J to assert his (hopefully there will never be a need to)...if I were pregnant and carrying a child in my belly, but I knew that I messed up big time in my choice of partner and I believed the guy in question would be a horrible father- I don't know if I could set aside my judgment for what I wanted for my child in favor of the man's rights to be notified and asked for consent.

Granted, it's absolutely possible to use that power (to withhold information) vindictively, foolishly or unfairly. And I'm sure it happens. But it can also be used to protect a child from what a mother would judge to be an unhealthly situation.

[thanksgivingmom]

Originally Posted by zxczxcasdasd

This is where I'm philosophically torn...

Yeah, brown, you definitely got the "but what if he's a big jerk?" scenario. But I do know that he was ultimately told, and before the adoption was completed.

In theory, I think we all want everyone to have equal rights and responsibilties...but in practice, I think there are situations where a woman judges that the father of her unborn is not a fit father and uses her judgment as a mother to do what she believes to be in the best interests of the child, even if it means denying the man his due process...because the child's welfare is judged to be more important than his rights. (I think this is what you're saying TG?...correct me if I'm wrong.)

See as much as I am glad hubby asserted his rights and would want J to assert his (hopefully there will never be a need to)...if I were pregnant and carrying a child in my belly, but I knew that I messed up big time in my choice of partner and I believed the guy in question would be a horrible father- I don't know if I could set aside my judgment for what I wanted for my child in favor of the man's rights to be notified and asked for consent.

Granted, it's absolutely possible to use that power (to withhold information) vindictively, foolishly or unfairly. And I'm sure it happens. But it can also be used to protect a child from what a mother would judge to be an unhealthly situation.

There you go again saying things so much more clearly than I could

These absolutely were thoughts that I experienced during the process. I mean, it's "okay" for aparents to cut people out of kids' lives as a "parenting decision" - it's at least sometimes accepted and understood....but what I did isn't.

Believe me, it didn't feel good, it doesn't feel good, and I know one day there will be fall out from it all. That won't be fun to deal with either.

But YES, at some point I had to consider what was BEST for Cupcake. There were signs that pointed to her birthfather NOT being what was best for Cupcake.

For instance: Cupcake's birthfather was a Dad before we got together so I had SEEN him parenting a kid too (one day a week visitation). I had gone to his house to find his son (2 years old) alone in the living room while bdad was sleeping. Why? Because he wasn't feeling well and knew I would show up eventually and would watch his son. It's not like I had PLANS to be there in five minutes or something - and even then NOT COOL to just leave a 2 year old essentially alone in a house (a house that has a doggie door he could fit through by the way.....)

I realize maybe it was a fluke. I realize maybe he wouldn't do that every day. But he just didn't care when he DID do it. I couldn't imagine finding him doing that to my child!

I don't think that ONE day is enough to justify what I did....and believe me, I have more, I just won't share it here. If anyone wants to have a private discussion about this I can, but not on a public forum

I DON'T think I'm entirely justified. I know that. I don't feel all warm and fuzzy about the situation. I usually feel pretty much like a big jerk about it.

[zxczxcasdasd]

Thanks for sharing what you did. We can take the rest offline at some point.

I'm just wondering what the overriding principle is for this principle, if there is one?

On one hand, the idea that my son would have to research all 50 states and sign every putative registry in existence to make sure that he retained rights to his child seems ridiculous and just wrong. And the fact that this really is the only way to be sure your child isn't placed and that most men on the planet don't even know what a putative registry is, makes the whole thing seem like a joke-- like an end-run around father's rights..."What, you didn't know you had to register as a putative father in every possible state? Well, sucks for you."

On the other hand as a woman, I know when you are carrying a child- the instinct to protect that child *no matter what* is over whelming. It would be hard for me as an expectant mother to hold "he has a right to know and be asked for consent" over the sacred duty I felt to protect my child and myself.

I'm not saying that every man that isn't notified was because he was a dangerous jerk...I'm positive there are injustices done to dads every day.

I'm just wondering how we avoid demonizing women who make hard choices like that as the mother to their child, and balance that with making sure that a man's right to raise his own child is also upheld and protected...

[thanksgivingmom]

Originally Posted by zxczxcasdasd

Thanks for sharing what you did. We can take the rest offline at some point.

Anytime H

Originally Posted by zxczxcasdasd

I'm just wondering how we avoid demonizing women who make hard choices like that as the mother to their child, and balance that with making sure that a man's right to raise his own child is also upheld and protected...

I think you've made a great start. Dialogue (especially one so respectful) is a first step to understanding. Looking outside our own experiences is hugely important. I can critique what I did and see it's flaws. I can look at a woman that didn't even have the reasons I saw in my experience and acknowledge that she is very unethically denying paternal rights. You being able to see beyond your experience with hubby who is an AWESOME dad and your son(s!) and his potential future to be harmed by this to understand other women's perspectives - these are all steps in the right direction.

Keep up the dialogue, you make SO much sense and say things so much more clearly than I do H!

[bmomto2_momto2]

I took a course a few semesters ago on adoption. It was taught by a mother/daughter team. The mother operates an adoption agency (for the tough to place children) and the daughter is an adoption attorney. The daughters advice was... "tell your sons, etc. to register with the putative father registry each and every time they have relations with a girl of child-bearing age". She said that as it doesn't matter if a woman outright lies about her pregnancy (i.e. refusing to tell she is pregnant and avoiding the father and his contacts)... the courts will always terminate the parental rights. I went home and told my son that even if precautions are used, and even if he is not sure he is ready to be a father, if he has relations with any girl who can bear children and he doesn't want to just lose his rights (versus consenting to terminate them) then he needs to sign up each and every time. Even that adoption attorney says she has instructed her son to do so. That is sad that men would have to do that. I do realize there are times when it is better for the child to never know that father; however in those instances a good attorney (which most adoptive parents or agencies can afford to retain) will be able to terminate his rights anyway.

[SchmennaLeigh]

I hope that these archaic, demeaning registries aren't around when my boys are of fathering ages. Sigh.

[KSC0917]

DH and I are in somewhat of a sticky situation related to this topic. The emom chose us to adopt her baby but does not want the edad to know anything about the baby. In fact, he currently believes she is not even pregnant. I have tried to drill into her head that we MUST get his consent or the adoption will not go through, but now I fear she is going to run and move to another state (thinking this will ensure she never has to tell him). I have asked that she try to talk to him about his rights & get him to agree to the adoption but she won't. I told her that if she doesn't talk to him, the first he will know of this baby is when the state contacts him to sign TPR. Which I would imagine will only aggravate the situation & possibly he would not sign TPR simply b/c he was not told the truth in the beginning. They are both minors and his parents have said that THEY wanted to raise the baby IF she was actually pregnant. This is when the lies began The emom does not want his family anywhere near the child.
My DH and I are now trying to decide if it is worth the aggravation and added stress this presents. I firmly believe that he has the same rights as she does (or should anyway) and that adoption is as much HIS decision as it is HERS.
We live in a putative registry state and I am sure he has no idea about that. But I know his name & have told our attorney EVERYTHING. So regardless of how she handles it, we are going to proceed in what we feel is the most ethical and moral way...even if it means in the end, we don't get to adopt the baby