[BestLight]

Originally Posted by Leigh131313

none of us think of our children as Tupperware.....if you break them, there is no lifetime warranty!!

And they're not microwave safe!

(Don't call social services -- I'm only kidding!)

[AMom2Two]

Originally Posted by myheart

Reading this thread I was also offended, the words Infertile Couples seemed to be used in a negative tone, those words popped out of the screen and taunted me. I'm not sure if the tone was negative it was just my perception

I got that feeling too. The use of the words infertile couples did come out with a negative tone. It's as if we are blamed for what we can not control. Why would anyone say infertile couples. Not all couples who adopt are infertilie.

I also found it strange that this thread was split simply to call attention to Littlebitty, as if to try to make her change her mind. Shouldn't we just respect her feelings?

[Leigh131313]

Hi all!

It was split because it was taking another thread off of topic. Everyone was notified

It's a new feature, we're hoping this will increase discussions and keep the original topic on course! Sometimes a new topic come up during a thread, and the original question or concern is lost in the shuffle.

Please pm me if you have any concerns or questions!

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by Leigh131313

Sometimes, people just see things the way they do.

We won't always agree, and that's ok.

The main thing is, we all have good intentions no matter how we see this issue.

none of us think of our children as Tupperware.....if you break them, there is no lifetime warranty!!

The problem I see is this.... the adoptees here and all the adoptees I have ever spoken to have stated they do not like being thought of as a gift. Shouldn't that mean something? Isn't still using the term at that point become disrespectful in that you are disregarding the feelings of the people that you are talking about?

I would like to add this. It is actually taken from a presentation I did on this topic.

On web sites, in books, from the mouths of adoption professionals, adoptive parents and birthparents, the adopted child is often referred to as the gift in adoption. For some it is merely semantics. When people talk about their children as gifts, they are most often talking about the gifts that children bring us merely by having them in our lives. It is a gift to give birth to a child. It is a gift to parent. It is a gift to have the love and trust of a child.

There are, however, many that really do see the child, him or herself as a gift to the adoptive parents. In her essay, Freely Given, Judith S Modell makes the argument that open adoption is supportable because it transforms the child from commodity to a gift that birthparents bestow on adoptive parents. I believe, however, that when the child becomes the gift in open adoption we are, in fact, turning the child into an object that can be bought or given. Can one person, even a parent, own another? While most child welfare laws in the western world, including adoption laws, are set up on the basis of ownership, I do not believe that we own our children. In fact, child welfare policy focuses more on what parents are to provide their children, than on the rights of ownership. Parents of all stripes are mandated to provide for the needs of their children, not the other way around.

The primary problem with designating the child as the gift in adoption is that it is not centered on the needs of the child. Genevieve Vaughan, in her essay Mothering, Co-muni-cation and the Gifts of Language, states that in selfless gift-giving, most often associated with motherhood, "the giver recognizes the existence and needs of the other, then fashions or provides something specific to satisfy those needs." If we are to apply this to "the child as the gift" in adoption, the child becomes the gift the birthmother creates to satisfy the needs of the adoptive parents. In this scenario, the adoptive parents have their desired child, the birthparents are not longer necessary and the adopted child's needs are limited to what the adoptive parents can, or decide, to provide for. In truth, this is what the closed system of adoption is based on, that the child should have no need for connection or contact with his family of origin.
Birthparents are also made to feel that contact with their child is a gift to them. They are told how wonderful it is that the adoptive parents are sending them letters and pictures, and how wonderful it is that they are allowed to visit. There is little mention of how contact between birthparents and the child benefits the child involved. Instead they are made to feel as the recipients. Here again the child becomes an object, or gift.

So how does the concept of selfless gift giving translate in open adoption? We need to begin, and keep bringing it back to, the true recipient in adoption, the child. The choice to explore adoption comes when expectant parents are concerned that they may not be able to give the child all they need. Their first thought is "How will I provide for my child?" not "I want to give my child to someone who needs one." They look, not only for adoptive parents who they feel will best parent their child, but also for someone they feel they can trust to honor their role as a birthparent and their connection to the child. In ultimately placing their child in an open adoption, they are making their final parental decision. The decision to provide for their child needs through open adoption. The true gift of open adoption, then, is not only the gift of the adoptive family, but the relationship that the adoptive parents and birthparents create to benefit the child. A relationship where all roles are honored and where the child's needs come first.

Too often comfort of the adults involved overshadows this gift of open adoption to the child. Adoption professionals and others tell adoptive parents and birthparents they only need to do "what they are comfortable with". I believe that people find the philosophy of comfort for the adults involved so acceptable because they see the child as a gift to themselves. If "the purpose of the gift is the satisfaction of the need and well-being of the receiver" as Genevieve Vaughan states, than the adults involved are free to make decisions based on their needs. Consider for a moment the adoptive mom who is "not comfortable having her daughter's mother in her home". Or the birthparent who feels like she would rather not deal with the grief that can sometimes come after a visit. Both are making decisions based on their needs and not the needs of the child. The true gift of open adoption gets lost because the focus is not on the true recipient.

If adoption is truly about providing families for children and not about providing children for families, than the "child as a gift" is a concept that we in the adoption community need to rid ourselves of. If we are truly focused on the needs of the child, than we will work through our fear, discomfort and grief to get to the place where all of the child's family, both birth and adoptive, can be honored and respected. In return we will find ourselves deluged with unexpected gifts from our children. Gifts given not out of guilty gratitude or obligation, rather given freely, based on the knowledge that they are fully loved and accepted for who they are.

[numbr1dbcksfan]

Apparantly no matter how much amoms try to explain what we mean by "gift", it is taken in the wrong way.

I think this goes both ways, though. You see it as we are taking it the wrong way... and we see it as you choosing to continue to offend - no matter what anyone says to explain...

I think really it goes back to leigh's thread (I think it was hers)..being in it for ourselves.... we werent placing our children to give anyone the gift of family.. parenting... filling a hole...

No.. it is about us. We all want to give our children the world... and when we find our shortcomings.. then we look to others to do that... but the main thing is OUR NEED to give our children more than we can. Hopefully the full benefit goes to our child... but it is about OUR desires for our child. And really.. it has nothing at all to do with the other couple.

They too are at the table for themselves...

No one... IMO is giving a gift to anyone.

Not even the child.. because there are great losses with the gains... the child simply gets our HOPE for their greater future.

I know that I placed Kristin because I was scared of her father... I was raising a two year old.. I wanted the best for both of my kids... It was about what I wanted for her.. not what she wanted... not what they wanted... Me.

No gift.
Bleh.

[myheart]

Originally Posted by bromanchik

The true gift of open adoption gets lost because the focus is not on the true recipient.[/QOUTE]

The gift of adoption in my family is focused on the true recipients,all who are involved in my sons life. He was our gift from heaven above. Everyones beliefs are different. There cannot be one setway in adoption because we are not all the same.

If adoption is truly about providing families for children and not about providing children for families, than the "child as a gift" is a concept that we in the adoption community need to rid ourselves of.[/QOUTE]

You see this is where I disagree. The focus now is on my son, but if I did not have the desire to be a mother deep down in my core. I am not sure that adoption would have been presented to me. So, initially the idea about adoption was about me and the the desire to be a mother. Now, once I became a mother...I like many mothers took to the mother role and have placed my son before everything including myself. Unfortunatley, not all mother do this, sometimes it takes longer for some b-moms and a-moms. It depends on the enviroment they are currently in. Or in the state of mind they are in. There are so many facets in this gem we call adoption. What works for one cannot work for the other.The words we use are the same,we will not agree on everything. If my son were to come to me and say, "Mommy I am insulted by being reffered to as a gift", I would stop using that phrase all together. I myself have read on this very forum...adoptees reffering themselves as gifts to their parents.
I have said it before and I will say it again out of respect for those in this forum who are insulted by being reffered to as a gift I will refrain from using it here.
However, out of respect for us a-moms who choose to use this word, respect us for our well meaning hearts. I am not being prideful or argumentive, my point is simple.
Gift to me is a blessing from Gods arms,to Bs arms, to my arms....and because gift for me revolves around my belief ...God. I cannot and will not rid this word and the
the way it used from my life.


[/Qoute]If we are truly focused on the needs of the child, than we will work through our fear, discomfort and grief to get to the place where all of the child's family, both birth and adoptive, can be honored and respected.[/QOUTE]

I believe this statement to be true in my life . B and her family have always respected me as my sons mother. They have never iterfered in the way we raise our son,
in return I have always respected them as my sons other family and now as a part of our family. I have always loved my sons family as they have always loved us. The love for my son is so great that I could not help but love every single part of him. B is a part of him when I see her I see my angel. I know in my heart this is why our relationship is so strong, because of him. I see my son in her and she sees our son in us. I see my son and I see Bs beautiful eyes and hair. She sees our son and she sees our mannerisms in him....though she says that he looks more like us than her. He is a part of us all he is our g*** to us all.

[/QOUTE]In return we will find ourselves deluged with unexpected gifts from our children. Gifts given not out of guilty gratitude or obligation, rather given freely, based on the knowledge that they are fully loved and accepted for who they are.
[/quote]
The only gift I want from my son is himself and his love. My son is not an object he is not my property.
He is and always will be my son, my blessing, my g*** .Gift for me is stated with Love and not in the derogatory sense. To some it may be belittling to others it is received as a blessing.

Many Blessings ,
Myheart

[AMom2Two]

(((Myheart)))

Great Post!!!! I agree completely with you. Thank you for sharing that!

I also wanted to say that how WE (aparents feel) does not mean we tell our children that they are gifts. These are two different things. Do not mix them up for us.

Some aparents CAN NOT help but feel we were given the most wonderful gift in the world. I actually spoke to my dd bmom about this and SHE AGREE'S. Not everyone will agree with everyone's position or feelings. It is not one size fits all.

In fact, one of my favorite adoption songs, has the word gift in it. I've pasted the words below.

I get angry when others try to tell me HOW I SHOULD FEEL. You ask us to respect how you feel, but yet you don't give us the same respect back on how we feel? My children were gifts to me, just like they are gifts from God to their bmothers. Is it wrong when others say, their children are gifts from God. Why is one okay and the other is not? I am SO GLAD my dd bmom feels the same way we do, so for us, we don't have a problem with it.

That is not to say that I would tell my dd she is a gift, because I never would, but in my heart, I feel it is so.

If we were to look at the word gift, this is the definition of it....gift[1]
(noun) 1 : a notable capacity, talent, or endowment; 2 : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation; 3 : the act, right, or power of giving



Lyrics: Empty Arms
by Janice Kapp Perry

(Birth mother)
It’s not a choice that anyone should ever have to make
And I hope someday you’ll come to know I did it for your sake
I knew from the beginning you deserved a chance to live,
But in my heart I knew you would need more than I could give.

I prayed that God would strengthen me to do what I must do.
And I made a choice that I believed would be the best for you,
For I loved you with a special love that only parents know,
A kind of pure unselfish love that helped me let you go.

I knew my empty arms would hurt me through the years,
And thoughts of all that might have been would often bring a tear,
But I had peace amid the struggle, for in my heart I knew
There were loving arms and caring hands waiting hopefully for you.
And I knew what I must do.

(Adoptive Parents)
So many years we’ve waited for a child to call our own.
The sorrow in our aching hearts was known to God alone.
Through tears and faith and lonely days this blessing was withheld
And then we realized our child must come through someone else.

We prayed that she would have the strength to let her baby live,
And share with us the tender gift that she alone could give.
Then we waited for a miracle, it’s all that we could do,
Just praying there would come a day that wishes would come true.

Because our empty arms have hurt us through the years,
And thoughts of all that might have been would often bring a tear,
But we felt hope amid the struggle, for in our hearts we knew
There could be an angel mother who could make all our dreams come true.
Now we know that it was you.

We know your empty arms may hurt you through the years,
And thoughts of all that might have been may sometimes bring a tear,
But may God protect and bless you and help your heart endure,
Knowing those who love your little one will have empty arms no more.

(Birth mother)
I loved you with a special love that only parents know;
A kind of pure unselfish love that helped me let you go.



Credits: Lyrics from the Adoption Album Do You Have a Little Love to Share
Produced by Adoption Media
All words and music copyright © 2005 Janice Kapp Perry and Joy Saunders Lundberg

[myheart]

[quote=AMom2Two
Lyrics: Empty Arms
by Janice Kapp Perry

(Birth mother)
It’s not a choice that anyone should ever have to make
And I hope someday you’ll come to know I did it for your sake
I knew from the beginning you deserved a chance to live,
But in my heart I knew you would need more than I could give.

I prayed that God would strengthen me to do what I must do.
And I made a choice that I believed would be the best for you,
For I loved you with a special love that only parents know,
A kind of pure unselfish love that helped me let you go.

I knew my empty arms would hurt me through the years,
And thoughts of all that might have been would often bring a tear,
But I had peace amid the struggle, for in my heart I knew
There were loving arms and caring hands waiting hopefully for you.
And I knew what I must do.

(Adoptive Parents)
So many years we’ve waited for a child to call our own.
The sorrow in our aching hearts was known to God alone.
Through tears and faith and lonely days this blessing was withheld
And then we realized our child must come through someone else.

We prayed that she would have the strength to let her baby live,
And share with us the tender gift that she alone could give.
Then we waited for a miracle, it’s all that we could do,
Just praying there would come a day that wishes would come true.

Because our empty arms have hurt us through the years,
And thoughts of all that might have been would often bring a tear,
But we felt hope amid the struggle, for in our hearts we knew
There could be an angel mother who could make all our dreams come true.
Now we know that it was you.

We know your empty arms may hurt you through the years,
And thoughts of all that might have been may sometimes bring a tear,
But may God protect and bless you and help your heart endure,
Knowing those who love your little one will have empty arms no more.

(Birth mother)
I loved you with a special love that only parents know;
A kind of pure unselfish love that helped me let you go.



Credits: Lyrics from the Adoption Album Do You Have a Little Love to Share
Produced by Adoption Media
All words and music copyright © 2005 Janice Kapp Perry and Joy Saunders Lundberg[/QUOTE]

AMom2Two,
What a beautiful song! Thank you so much for sharing this.

Many Blessings,
Myheart

[Leigh131313]

Brenda.

Sometimes you have to accept that no matter how much information you throw at people, they are still going to see it the way they do.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your wonderful experience, research and information...but people can still chose to feel the way they do. At least they are then making a more informed decsion.

My role is not to tell people how to feel or act, simply offer my advice,support and hopefully friendship. People do have the right to take it or leave it.

[taramayrn]

I realize that amoms view the child as a gift. I understand that, but what I was saying was that I didn't place my son for adoption so his parents could parent. I placed him because it was best for him. In my mind, his parents are the gift to him.

[littlebitty]

Man. What a response. I just read most of the discussions that have been posted in the last few days, and I honestly cannot believe how one tiny little word I used was completely distorted, bringing about an array of topics that I didn't think were even an issue.

Personally, I am a little offended. I mean, I am an E mom, new to the world of adoption and a new member of this forum. I came here looking for nothing, but hoping that I might be able to learn something, or share something in common with another in a similar situation, or teach someone about the joy and beauty in acceptance of God's will.

I have had pretty much nothing but negative comments on the things that I have said, and it seems like I'm actually being chastized in a way for feeling good and at peace with this adoption plan.

No matter how I phrased it, this child IS a gift. And God did NOT give me this child so that I might just "REGIFT", for Heaven's sake! But He placed this child in my womb so that I might find the couple that HE intended for this child, and, in cooperating with HIS grace, GIVE the couple this child.

SO WHAT if you don't like the word GIVE? No matter how you look at it, a Bmom GIVES her child to a family, so that they might have a child, and so that that child might have a family.

But you know what? If I decided to NOT cooperate with God's grace, if I decided to keep this child, this baby would grow up with a WONDERFUL and BEAUTIFUL LOVING family. My whole family is so close and loving, a great support no matter what.

So, yes, I am GIVING, unselfishly and with no strings attached, From my heart and through my womb, a CHILD to this couple, who has been waiting for THIS, THIER child, to come to them, with God's intercession.

And I feel GREAT about that. Misunderstand my intentions if you like, talk about my using the word "gift" as if it is negative. I'm sure some will probably think that I am using this explanation as some way to make myself feel better.
Bah.

Why can't we just come together and rejoice in this beautiful, bright world of adoption? Maybe I've come to the wrong place. I want someone to share in my rejoicing. With love comes sacrifice, and I know I will mourn, but I will never let myself see my world as grey. This child is not mine. It is God's. And I will do with it what He wills, with a smile on my face and joy in my heart.

[littlebitty]

Oh, and I AM placing this child in another couple's arms so that THEY might have the chance to have a child. And of COURSE it is also so that this child will have a better life than I could ever give him...
But what is so wrong with wanting another couple to have the joy of a child, and working with God's grace to make their prayers come true?
What's so wrong with loving a stranger enough to give them a child?

I'm sure that this next statement will be misinterpreted, but please do NOT think I am comparing a child to a kidney... because that is NOT the case... just a comparison of human compassion, and sacrifice of love....

If I was the only match in the world for a child who needed a kidney to live, would I sacrifice my kidney so that this kid, who I had never met, would live? Yes. Would I sacrifice having another child so that this couple who I have never met, would live? Yes.

Maybe the thought is foreign... maybe I'm a flower child at heart, but I don't like to think of people in sadness or suffering, and if I am blessed with a gift that I can share with them or give to them, I am willing to do that. Thank God that he blessed me with this child. And thank GOD that He showed himself to me in such a way in my life that I would realize what His intentions for this child really were.

[Mommy24]

Quote : "SO WHAT if you don't like the word GIVE? No matter how you look at it, a Bmom GIVES her child to a family, so that they might have a child, and so that that child might have a family."

Littlebitty, You are entitled to feel how you feel, as are the Birthmoms who feel differently than you.
In reference to the above quote from you, I did not "give" my child to a family so that they (the aparents) could have a family. I "placed" my child with his aparents so that "my child" would have a home where he would have the things I couldnt provide at the time.

As for wanting to rejoice in this beautiful thing we call adoption, well mine isnt such a beautiful story, IT Stinks!!! The only thing I will rejoice in is the day I can reunite with him and tell him how much I love him and have missed him

[numbr1dbcksfan]

But He placed this child in my womb so that I might find the couple that HE intended for this child, and, in cooperating with HIS grace, GIVE the couple this child.

Im not sure this fits with the whole Christian "pre-marital sex is a sin" jive.

If God's will is for people to only have sex in marriage.. then it goes to logic that he would not will someone to have premarital sex so that he could provide a child to someone else...

Sorry. Im not following the logic of "God's Will" in adoption at all.

Basically if you are pregnant and would rather "GIVE" your child to a couple who cant or doesnt have one... GREAT! But why twist it?

Be at peace, great.. but the reasoning ("God's will") just doesnt go to Christian logic.

The bottom line seems clear.. you dont want to raise the child so you are "giving" him or her to someone else. GREAT!

That has nothing to do with anything else. Im really not sure what support to give to someone who is able to raise her child but just doesnt want to... so my support is simple... Yes.. please do "give" the child to someone who DOES want to.

In this case.. I support adoption. Yes.

[littlebitty]

I AM married.
I would want to raise this child, if this child was mine to raise.
I am also very capable of doing so. I am talented and educated, hard-working and a wonderful mother.

Do NOT tell me that I don't WANT to raise this child.
If you do not understand the way God's grace has touched my life, I'd be more than willing to discuss it.
I was not even really religious before this experience, and don't think I'm some loony "Jesus Freak" who is USING God's will as an EXCUSE.


Maybe I sound crazy, but I'm at peace with myself, my decision, my life, my family....
I'm happier now than I have been in years. Tell me that it's not God's will, and I'll tell you you're crazy.