[Denisesmom]

Janey
I just actually identified the PTSD the other day. I hadn't thought about it before but I do believe that is part of this. I am scared to death that I losing her for the second time. thanks for your kind words of support and the offer of friendship. I will take you up on that!! Where are you in all this mess? Are you one of the "girls that went away also? I just found that book and it is so close to my life and story it is scary. Thanks again Janey. btw Jane is my middle name!!

[Denisesmom]

I would love to just sit and chat Thank God I found this place. It is so wonderful to hear from others who are/have gone through the same thing.

[Janeytwo]

Dear Denisesmom,

Hi! :-) Yes I am a sort of "girl who went away" though I gave up my babies a few years after Roe v Wade. Raven (a very wise woman in here) has suggested picking the book up and I am planning to get to the bookstore this week.

Where I am in this mess? Hmmm...good question! LOL! I guess I would have to say I am at the beginning of the journey and from what I am reading as I traverse this forum I have a lot to learn and a long road to travel.

Glad to have people like you to travel with!

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

julie23

my dear friend, jackie... have i told you lately how much i love you?

Julie you have so much to share about all this..
You have come through so much hard.. So much pain on terms of reunion being difficult..
And you sorted it.. and you got on with it..

I did not get harsh words from my bson I just got silence and hesitation..

Welcome back I have been thinking of you..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

Anyway, he was an addict and pushed every button she had, including the "you owe me" button. It almost broke her and in the end she had to let go. It came down to his unfeedable needs or her own survival. Talk about the choice of Solomon!

But she did let him go. And then of course....the scorn of others started. The "how could you do that!?" "how could you give up on him twice?!"

Even a judge carried that torch to her home to burn her with it so to speak. Initially when her son found her she'd let him live in her house. After coming home one night and finding half her stuff gone, sold for drugs, she made a decision and went to court to have him evicted. The judge called her "the worst mother I've ever seen."

What a terrible terrible thing to say to this woman..
Enabling.. helps no one..

My husband was the kind of drinker that would go into blackout.. I remember one nite when I finally gave up my caretaking ways he had smashed his hand on a plate in anger.. blood all over the place.. and I just sat and looked at him.. He finally passed out and then got up and went to work the next day..
At work they sent him to emergency.. He had cut a nerve in his hand and he lost feeling on one side of his hand.. Permanently..
He stopped drinking soon after that and at that point I did not really care.. I was numb..

I remember the preamble of the first step of Alanon.. it says that when one member of the family is getting better (takes care of themselves) the rest of the family gets better..

We do the best we can.. and if others do not think it enough so be it.. they are IMO probably wrong..
The woman you speak of was doing her own recovery.. and as my daughter tells me.. about her adoptee boyfriend who is now in legal troubles.. because of drugs etc.. she told me.. “Mom he was horrible to me.”

My answer is always the same. "No I have never not loved you. But there have been times when I hated myself."

Love is a strange animal to me.. My mom did not teach me about it she verbally abused me from day one and had a drink in order to be okay..
But she loved me.. but she loved me when I was enabling her when I was listening to her drunk conversations.. agreed with her over and over again..
She hated herself.. but I learned to love me..

And when I learned how to love me..

:-) I don't know if this is appropriate to share but I've always secretly thought God was a 19 year old guy roaring down the road in a 70 Roadrunner 440 Wedge, shifting gears at will, wind in His hair, a giant you-know-what eating grin plastered on His face. And I think if I were to ask Him why He couldn't come up with a better solution than adoption....I can see Him saying something Motor-City-eese like, "What d'ya want from me Janey man? I don't drive no friggin pimped out Bentley!"

Ya.. no money no easy way.. That’s the core reality of this in my thinking..
I had no insurance.. I had no good job.. I had no help on terms of my parents.. I could not imagine leaving my baby with mom..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Denisesmom

I think that is really where I am at with this. I have a friend who just does not understand my need to back off and she calls it "shutting the door". What ever you call it I have to do it. I have to.

Its almost like they pity the one relinquished and you need to care for them.. no matter what.. make it up sort of..

Not right..

You do not need to be loved not at the cost of yourself.. 'Advice from A Failure'.. Jo Courdet..

A book written in the sixties.. (full quote below)

I think we need to be selfish in reunion.. and I remember when my mind shifted to that kind of thinking..

I will not be able to go on if I don't. While I have not told Denise those words I probably will at some point. My guess is she has noticed that I am not emailing like I used to (every day) and I find that even though I check to see if she emailed I don't go into a tail spin when I see she hasn't. Ya know part of what I am worried about is that if she is able to get response from her father he will brain wash her like he has my other three children who will btw have noting to do with me b/c I get half his retirement that after being marred to him for 26 years and him having another woman. He is a charmer and I am scared that she will surcomb to his charms and end up hating me too.

I almost divorced my husband and we went to lawyers and the lawyer told him that his quality of life would go down big time.. and that he would have to give me half of everything.. ha..
I felt power in my marriage after that.. I had not worked and had run his business from home for years.. and we split his income so he did not have to pay a lot of tax what I sorted.. but I had the disadvantage of having given a son up for adoption and I was phobic about a lot of things.. going out and getting a job was one of them.. this when my second and third born were teens..

I went for therapy.. I walked down the hill and told this woman that I was locked in my home..
I did not tell her about my bson.. not for a while..
My point.. I found out that a lot of my ‘stuff’ goes back to the relinquishment and the unsorted emotions and or triggers..

The fear of being left behind because I am so guilty..
This therapist taught me about self love.. and the work involved in doing it..
The writing down of an incident and then really looking at what happened and my reaction..
I also did The Artist Way.. Julia Cameron.. and she has a person journal every morning on waking.. three pages till the pages make sense..
And she has a person go on artist dates..
And I went on an artist date to Boston where I got pregnant.. in 1964.. I sat in the Commons and journaled and thought and worked through some of my memories and got strong.. an act of self love..

So if she succumbs to this man.. and decides that you are not who she wants to know then I say.. so be it..
You can not control this and if you try and control this you are putting your energy into impossible things..
IMO its best to put our energy into sorting what is presenting itself in reunion.. All the emotions come up.. I found anger when I was first into reunion.. I was so afraid of my anger..

Now I learn..

I worry that maybe I am doing it before she can and maybe somewhere deep inside that is true but I it certainly is not the driving force to my putting the distance between us.

Avoiding the outcome in other words..

I needed to take care of myself.. I needed to get on with my life and I needed to stop the obsessing..
Bottom line stuff..

We have kids and maybe we have to give them up because of many reasons.. and we hope and pray they are okay.. but.. we need to make sure we are okay in all this..

I just can't continue on the path I was on, begging, conjoling ect. I know I can not make her love me and I don't know that she ever will.

I could not do it either.. It felt like the rug was pulled and I was back to being less-than..
The old triggers.. all popping up..

I remember when I was getting ready to meet her how worried I was that I wasn't pretty and that I was over weight and that she would find me disgusting. I think I still wonder about that. It is late for us she is 45 and I am 60.

I am the kind of person that just gives up.. fades to black.. Does not try with this stuff..
And maybe this is when I said to me.. stop.. you can not be who you are not.. and you can no longer play that game.. that game you hate so much..

I gave him up so I could play the game of survival.. of losing the weight and applying for jobs as soon as possible..
Find a husband live happy ever after..

I am not comfortable pretending to be someone I am not..

She only recently found out she was adopted and I am sure that is going to take some time when she slows down long enough to deal with it. I truly feel blessed to know she is alive, she is healthy, relatively happy. I can't imagine trying to get my head around finding out I was adopted at 45.

There is a web site for late discovery adoptees..
Late Discovery - Home

Ron Morgan is a good man.. and maybe he can help you to understand what she is going through..

Adoption.com Forums - MyPage: BBChurch

He has posted here a couple of times..

D*** her adoptive parents. Ya know that was the one thing I asked that the child would be told he/she was adopted and they could not honor that one request. If they had had their way she would have never found out. I can only imagine the feelings she is having and b/c her mom died she can't even confront her about it. Kinda leaves her holding a fist full of s---!!!! Sorry but that is how I feel. I am angry too, obviously . They hurt my baby how selfish they were

It must make you furious.. It would make me furious..

I don't know what or when I will approach the issue with Denise I am good at avoiding but I probably will.

I don’t think you have to do anything.. I just made sure my bson had my email address etc and then just let it all go.. let the intensity go.. and continued to work on me.. love me..

Not change me in order to be loved or wanted or accepted..

Jackie


From Advice From a Failure.. Jo Courdet

Page 18

You do not need to be loved, not at the cost of yourself.
The single relationship truly central and crucial in a life is
the relationship to the self. It is rewarding to find someone
whom you like, but it is essential to like yourself. It is
quickening to recognize that someone is a good and decent
human being, but it is indispensable to view yourself as
acceptable. It is a delight to discover people who are wor-
thy of respect and admiration and love, but it is vital to be-
lieve yourself deserving of these things. For you cannot
live in someone else. You cannot find yourself in someone
else. You cannot be given a life by someone else. Of all the
people you will know in a lifetime, you are the only one
you will never leave nor lose. To the question of your life,
you are the only answer. To the problems of your life, you
are the only solution.

[hollyhunter]

Exactly Jackie, I went on a journey looking for my child. I sought her and her acceptance but what I found was the me that I'd lost someplace and the ability to accept the choices I had made. I credit God for showing me the way and what was truely important in all of this. I'm in a good place now, no more regrets. If this was a journey then regrets were baggage too heavy to bring along. The pain blindsighted me and I didn't see it for what is was. It was the grief I owed with interest to my soul. My advice is not to fall into the trap of believing if your child is in your life the grief will disapear, it won't. It is yours along to deal with. Seeing your child grow up is what was lost and we can't ever get that back. Let grief happen because it gets better when you do.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Denise,

Just wanted to see how you were doing today. I am trying to stand back and not give advice here on the reunion thing. I am woefully ignorant in that arena and would probably be of little help.

But I hope I can continue to help with anything else. :-)

Especially the PTSD thing. That I can speak volumes about. And it is so very harmful to us and to others. But the shutting off of self.......after a while it becomes second nature. A coping mechanism of sorts. Almost welcome. Like opium...smooth and mellow...taking me far away. Which is why I have to constantly keep an eye out for it.

I understand what you mean about not remembering though and I send out my compassion.

Yep. Whole chunks of time just gone...gone. Not gone as in the years float by. And it's not just that we forget...it's beyond that. It's an inky blackness like the depths of the sea. Shoot, we don't even know that we've forgotten; don't realize.

And so when extreme emotional disturbance arrives, not only do we have to find some way to cope with it, we have to find some way to cope with the return of consciousness. I hope I'm relaying that correctly. But when I saw that clock? I didn't just have to deal with the fact of the emotion behind it. I had to deal with my brain saying, "My God! This happened to me!" I mean I knew of course that I'd given two children up. But that was some other Janey....some far away person who walked this earth once. So there was that type of amnesia to deal with.

And then the realization that I'd gotten about the bus and facing reliquishment alone....I had forgotten that had happened to me. Uhmm....in my waking memory that day was sort of like some Star Trek episode. I beamed into the courthouse and beamed out again.

One thing I will tell you. I am beginning to be very afraid of why it is I can't remember coming back on that bus. That memory is so gone that it is dead in the cemetary. A dead thing.

Yesterday I was walking my grandson in his stroller and meditating on why it is I can't seem to get in contact with the memory of that return ride. Suddenly, a bird flew out of a tree above me and I jumped and turned around. It felt like someone was following me. It wasn't a terrifying experience....just an eerie one. I will have to work on this; that is what I know. Cannot run from it. There's nowhere to go.

On the lighter side, yesterday I officially began my search so I'm at the back of the pack here.

One more foot steps forward on the path.

:-)

Janey

[Janeytwo]

Picking back up on what hollyhunter says here:
[quote]I went on a journey looking for my child. I sought her and her acceptance but what I found was the me that I'd lost someplace and the ability to accept the choices I had made.[quote]

Great point and excellently worded. I'm no expert but I would guess that most all of us left the person we were behind somewhere "back there". Or at least a part of ourselves.

And Holly and Jackie...you are right. The question then becomes "After all of this, who am I now?"

And can I get back what I lost in myself?

Maybe that's part of regaining peace and equilibrium. I'm hopeful.

Janey

[julie23]

I know I can not make her love me and I don't know that she ever will.

a harsh reality. i know some birthmoms worried that their birthchild would hate them... i never worried about that... i never even imagined it. it truly just didn't cross my mind ...

my reality... not only does she not love me... and probably never will... she hates me...

a strange feeling that must be. to hate the woman who gave birth to you...

I remember when I was getting ready to meet her how worried I was that I wasn't pretty and that I was over weight and that she would find me disgusting. I think I still wonder about that. It is late for us she is 45 and I am 60.

i never worried about this either.... but now i have experienced the rejection of myself.

even her adoptive father said, after meeting me, "My wife was really worried that you would be beautiful. She's so glad you're just a normal mom."

but even in this place of rejection... utter and complete rejection... even in being the recipient of the anger and hate...

i'm okay.

it doesn't hurt anymore. the wounds have healed.

I agree with jackie... and her author...

i would rather it be this way, than give up myself.

part of my own journey has been about letting go... about throwing my hands in the air...

it's about accepting my 19 year old self... and everything she did... and everything she was.... and knowing that she did the absolute best she could under the circumstances....

and the hate my birthchild has dumped at my stoop... well, it doesn't belong to me... i don't want it.... i don't deserve it...

i think it is about saying this... it's about saying "no"... i am worth more than that... and then i get very busy counting the blessings in my life... which are tremendous... i am abundantly blessed... abundantly blessed.

j

[Jackiejdajda]

hollyhunter

My advice is not to fall into the trap of believing if your child is in your life the grief will disapear, it won't. It is yours along to deal with. Seeing your child grow up is what was lost and we can't ever get that back. Let grief happen because it gets better when you do.

I remember a therapist told me once that when trauma happens to us in our lives we sort the trauma.. or some of us do.. at that time in our lives.. and if we get no help or are left in the parking lot or are forced to go on the bus alone.. that trauma stays with us..
Then if we are triggered in reunion we go right to that place where we sorted that original trauma.. and we react with those unexamined emotions..

We need to look at what happened and see it from our now eyes.. and grieve it..

Its almost like a gift if we can find the places we got hurt..


Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

julie23

but even in this place of rejection... utter and complete rejection... even in being the recipient of the anger and hate...

i'm okay.

it doesn't hurt anymore. the wounds have healed.

I agree with jackie... and her author...

i would rather it be this way, than give up myself.

part of my own journey has been about letting go... about throwing my hands in the air...

We do the very best we can.. and we try and work on what has happened to us and love ourselves and heal ourselves..

Janey wrote.

Especially the PTSD thing. That I can speak volumes about. And it is so very harmful to us and to others. But the shutting off of self.......after a while it becomes second nature. A coping mechanism of sorts. Almost welcome. Like opium...smooth and mellow...taking me far away. Which is why I have to constantly keep an eye out for it.

I love the line in Amused to Death.. Roger Waters..
What God Wants, Part III

The monkey in the corner
Wrote the figures in his book

I always think of it as "and the monkey in the corner wrote his lessons in his book."

I got books full of lessons..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey Julie,Wow!* So many great responses on this thread.*

i know some birthmoms worried that their birthchild would hate them...i never even imagined it.* it truly just didn't cross my mind ...*

I had written to someone else re the fact that my children could hate me and of course you are right, that is one of the possible outcomes.* I can't afford to fool myself into thinking otherwise.* And if they do hate me, the struggle then becomes can I accept* that they hate me?* And if so, can I let them own that without malice towards them or myself?* Interesting the word 'hate'.* We're all brought up to think of it as the opposite of love.* Hate is to love as dark is to light - that kind of thing.* But for me hate isn't really the problem.* The real problem is indifference.* Going to a place where I neither feel or care for anyone else or for myself.* Deadland.* I have been there.* It is a desolate and dry place.* If my children feel nothing for me either way; if they don't really care if I live or die, how will I deal with that?

a strange feeling that must be.* to hate the woman who gave birth to you...*

Hate.* I think it is self-perpetuated.* I am hating others but really I am looking inward at myself.* The vampire's mirror.* When I gaze into it, I can't see my own relfection.* I can only see my own flaws but they are pasted on someone else.* And so I can point my finger and say, "I hate that person!".* But really it is me that I dont like.*

even her adoptive father said, after meeting me, "My wife was really worried that you would be beautiful.* She's so glad you're just a normal mom."

It is at times like this that I wish I had ESP so I could see what people were going to say ahead of time.** Then I wouldn't be caught off guard.* Then I could respond by laughing, patting them on the shoulder and saying something cattily sublime like.* "Oh please think nothing of it.* I understand completely believe me.* After all,* I was worried you were going to be intelligent."** ***

it's about accepting my 19 year old self... and everything she did... and everything she was....

Huh.* This is wonderful thing that you wrote here.* I had no idea a month ago (or so) that I was going to dealing with all of this.* I had other plans and was well, thank you very much.* ** But when this happened, I said "okay - back to the next drawing board".* The thing is I didn't know I'd left that 16 year old Janey back there.* Truth is, I thought she was dead...killed within my soul.* As I emerge from my self-imposed exile (whoo boy) I begin to feel her in the periphery of my mind....her opinions, her zest.* Also though she was wrecklessly brave.* It was a survival thing.* But now that she is returning, I have to learn to negotiate with that 16 year old because I am not in a place now where I have to survive.* I am in a place now where I can live.* And those two things are not the same; not the same at all.It is like I caught myself fuming over your issues with your family...over it's injustice.* And it is injustice.* And I wanted you to know I knew that.* Still I think part of it was young girl I used to be that was railing.* I don't want to rail at the Universe.* I want to live in peace with it without tilting at windmills and espeically without hurting other people on the road.A tall order!* Like I said, I have this sinking feeling I'm coming back this way again.* LOL!*

i get very busy counting the blessings in my life... which are tremendous... i am abundantly blessed... abundantly blessed

.

Self actuation. A good thing.

Have a wonderful day!

Janey

[Janeytwo]

Hey Jackie,

This thing you said here...

I gave him up so I could play the game of survival.. of losing the weight and applying for jobs as soon as possible..
Find a husband live happy ever after..

I am reminded of the refrain in this song I like. Refrain goes "Find yourself a wife and settle down. Live a quiet life in a quiet town."

Hmmm...Yes I understand that. Looking for the picket fence. I have often wondered if women who have not given up children or have gone through abortions...I often wonder if the desperation to find happy ever after is the same for them? I have never thought to ask my friends who were childless until after marraige if this was the way. I mean, yeah, of course everyone (well most everyone) wants to have someone else.

But I mean is the desire the driving need the same for them as it has been for us?

I would love to hear what others think of that. Maybe I should start another thread.

LOL! Why I am hearing "Please no! No more threads!" in a crescendo in my mind?

I am not comfortable pretending to be someone I am not..

Yeah and conversely leaning to be comfotable with the person I am.

ying/yang

Have the best of days!

Janey

[julie23]

And if they do hate me, the struggle then becomes can I accept* that they hate me?* And if so, can I let them own that without malice towards them or myself?*

i think you have to, Janey. I think any other road leads to unhappiness. as difficult as it is, acceptance is a choice. and it is something we choose to do, because it is good for us...

The thing is I didn't know I'd left that 16 year old Janey back there.* Truth is, I thought she was dead...killed within my soul.* As I emerge from my self-imposed exile (whoo boy) I begin to feel her in the periphery of my mind....her opinions, her zest.* Also though she was wrecklessly brave.* It was a survival thing.* But now that she is returning, I have to learn to negotiate with that 16 year old because I am not in a place now where I have to survive.* I am in a place now where I can live.* And those two things are not the same; not the same at all.It is like I caught myself fuming over your issues with your family...over it's injustice.* And it is injustice.* And I wanted you to know I knew that.* Still I think part of it was young girl I used to be that was railing.* I don't want to rail at the Universe.* I want to live in peace with it without tilting at windmills and espeically without hurting other people on the road.A tall order!* Like I said, I have this sinking feeling I'm coming back this way again.* LOL!*

as i have been reunited with my 19 year old self... i have been able to unify my identity. to become whole. a large part of me, of who I am ... of my essence... was lost when I relinquished my parental rights.

and in finding my 19 year old self, i have been able to "right" the mirror... it is as if prior to relinquishing I looked into a mirror and saw myself... and relinquishing shattered the mirror... and the identity i put together afterwards, was only piecing the mirror back together... like it was all glued... and the picture was distorted.

but somehow, by integrating the 19 year old self, with the woman today... the woman who can understand things with a womans mind... the mirror has shifted into place... the mirror becomes whole... and i can see myself for who i really am...

and i like it. everything i lost at 19, i am reclaiming... my painting, my music, my dignity.... and because i have grown in different ways after 19, those parts are there too... my spirituality, writing, sewing, crafting.... and i am finding that i am really quite a spectacular individual... with many talents... with many gifts... with many blessings...

my story about my family hit a trigger in you, janey. we all have them... some strange thing that happens to another causes us to rail against it... in almost an overreactive way... when i see myself do that, i sit back.... and look for the root cause... what is it in me? what is it that is making feel so strongly? what do i need to sort?

one of my triggers is when women are considering placing a baby for adoption.... I happen to be pro-choice... i want women to have a choice... an honest and true choice about whether or not to place.... and given that, i want to personally adopt every single baby.... because i know i would keep my promise... it is hard for me to imagine adoptive parents keeping their promises... or being nice to the birthmother once the adoption is finalized... this is my trigger... fear for the birthmother... fear that she will be shut out... fear that she won't be treated fairly... and unless the state has legally enforceable post-adoption contact agreements, i refuse to recommend adoption... to anyone...

my trigger... my fear... my stuff to sort... in the final analysis, of my own adoption story, i experienced tremendous pain by the breaking of promises and the unkindness that they showed me.... wow, did that hurt. and I know i have not fully sorted it, because that is still a trigger for me...

my trigger... my baggage....


j