[mj77]

"This isn't about Bush, this is about what direction our nation is headed. Will our nation be like Sodom and Gomorrah?"

How did you get Kerry out of Sodom and Gomorrah? Perhaps you are sensitive--as we all are. I was actually venting of a bigger issue than Kerry. The direction of our country--regardless of who is president. If you believe what the bible says (regardless of your denomination as most share many of the same core values) then I would imagine you agree that there is great moral decay--regardless of who you choose to vote for. Neither candidate holds the key to solving the countries moral issues.

[skootinalong2]

Thank you so much for sharing that here. I don't know why but it made me cry. I pray that our country will realize how fortunate we are to have a man of God as our president.

[mj77]

I know the bible says, "as were in the days of Noah, so will be in the days of the coming of Man". Don't mean to bring up something that seems negative to so many, but my point is, that it's important to us to keep our nation in prayer. I know there are many people who aren't happy with the election results (though I am not one of those). I believe in the power of prayer. And as Christians, we should pray for our leaders that they will be guided by God's wisdom. Sorry to ramble on. It was just on my heart.

Blessings

[blueyes113]

I received this through e-mail today. I thought it might be appreciated here. God Bless and guide all of us.

>Why we are at war
>
> Some of you may not approve of the Iraqi war, but it's the BEST > explanation of the war that I've ever read, and I feel I must pass
> it on.
>
> This is the BEST explanation of WHY we are AMERICA, the Home of the Brave and the Land of the FREE!
>
> The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.
>
> My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go
> stand in our front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand
> there and tell me what you see?"
>
> "I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.
>
> "OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the
> United States of America and you are President Bush."
>
> Our son giggled and said "OK."
>
> "Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every
> house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.
>
> "OK Dad, I'm pretending."
>
> "Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that
> man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair
> and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her
> in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her
> to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they
> are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are
> kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son.... what
> do you do?"
>
> "Dad?"
>
> "What do you do son?"
>
> "I call the police, Dad."
>
> "OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take
> your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help.
> What do you do then son?"
>
> "Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.
>
> "They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place
> or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it,"
> my husband says.
>
> "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
>
> "I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I
> want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor
> who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to
> his children."
>
> "Daddy...he kills them?"
>
> "Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
>
> "Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next
> door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
>
> "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to
> get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop
> him," my husband says
>
> "But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
>
> "WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"
>
> Our son starts to cry.
>
> "OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask
> for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands
> taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"
>
> "What Daddy?"
>
> "He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down
> her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house
> on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you
> standing in the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
>
> "Daddy..."
>
> "WHAT DO YOU DO?"
>
> Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the
> blinds, Daddy."
>
> "My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him...
> "Why?"
>
> "Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who
> needs it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are
> supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't
> help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself .Daddy....I
> can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible
> things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the
> blinds...so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to
> pretend that it is not happening."
>
> I start to cry.
>
> My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window,
> looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions
> and he tells him...."Son"
>
> "Yes, Daddy."
>
> "Open the blinds because that man... he's at your front
> door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?"
>
> My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He
> balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes,
> without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA
> LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD,
> I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
>
> I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his
> chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him,
> he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you
> should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do
> what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too
> late." my husband whispers.
>
> THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq When
> good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all.
> Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must
> understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil
> men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where
> we are not afraid to look out our window. So that my nine year old
> son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes"
> the blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.
>
> "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO
> DO IT ALONE!"
>
> BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!
>
> BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT!
>
> BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
>
> SUPPORT THEM!!!
>
> SUPPORT AMERICA!!
>
> SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR
> BLINDS...."
>
> "The liberty we prize is not American's gift to the world, it is
> God's gift to humanity." George W. Bush

[mj77]

Thank you blueyes for sharing that. Thanks for reminding us why we fight the fight we do. It does get exhausting to hear of war. But we aren't the ones fighting it. It is our brave troops out there defending freedom. Thank you.

[Cheryl62]

I respect that reason - but then humanitarian stuff always moves me.

I have some other candidates for you -- Darfur in Sudan, where half a million people are in camps, thousands of women have been raped, children are dying of disease and starvation, and the government of Sudan is doing nothing to stop it. UN resolutions have been toothless and ineffective. Let's go - let's roll those troops to be sure humanitarian aid gets to the camps (it usually doesn't now), to stop the Arab janjadeen (sp?), to make the Sudanese government enforce the rule of law. Well - we're not going anywhere last time I checked. Just like we didn't in Rwanda.

Why not? They need a policeman too. Their woman and children are dying too, and in far greater numbers than in Iraq.

Nope, as much as, being an idealist, I'd like to believe that's why we went to Iraq, and as much as I DO agree that's why many Americans support it, the realm of real-world politics is not so idealistic as you or I.

[Cobb]

blueeyes,

"Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, "The one I will kiss is the man; arrest him." At once he came up to Jesus and said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you are here to do." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him. Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:48-52 New Revised Standard Version)

Peace,
Cobb

[rosaryforlife]

Well, I've read this whole page and agree that it is very peaceful so I hope I don't sound too harsh here by displaying the truth about my beliefs. Mostly to Mary in Venice. I am Catholic. I take my faith in God very seriously. I know you said you were voting for Kerry partly because he is Catholic and doesn't impose his beliefs onto the people of this nation (or something like that). Be that as it may, I would like to let you and anyone here who may not have been aware of this prior to voting. Sen. Kerry may be Catholic by name but he has openly voted against the partial birth abortion ban 6 times. 6 times. I'm sure most of the readers here are aware of the teachings of the Catholic Church on the whole abortion issue. If youre not, recently those in politics are being challenged by thelologians and bishops to reflect the teachings of the Church to truely be in "good standing" with the Magesterium of the Church, which Kerry is not. It is very controversial and very very important for the American people to be united all right. Not necessarily in all issues but definately in some of the most basic rights which are professed to protect ALL human beings....it says so in the constitution. How can a country be regarded as a great nation who protects all are inalieable rights in one sentence and legally "protects" the right for people to "choose" death for 1.4 million of the most innocent victims in our society today EVERY YEAR? I don't care what anyone says, take all the wars in history....all of them. Add the numbers of soldiers that were killed and disabled from WW1-the ongoing War on Terror and it still doesn't come close to the amount of innocent victims killed by abortion from when Roe v. Wade went into effect in the 70s. That is the war Im fighting. That is the only issue I care about. A nation that destroys it's children is going to have a hell of a lot easier time justifying many other injustices to their people and in some twisted way make it seem like reasonable just decisions. I know A LOT of reform and personal change needs to occur within the hearts and minds of many people in this country to actually do anything like make our leaders know we will not stand for legalized abortion anymore.. in fact as a birthmother I also know a lot of reform needs to take place in the hearts and minds of those directly involved in adoption and those who encourage it and help those in the adoption triad to heal and forgive and ultimately accept what God had given them no matter what that is before more people will be inclined to consider this as an option for them. It may be 100 years, it may be never that America bans abortion on demand....but don't tell me that God, Jesus and Mother Mary don't want me to continue praying the rosary and recieving the sacrements to help me and others discern what's right and what's wrong. After investing much of my spirituality to this cause for years now, I know enough to know that though Kerry may be "Catholic," it's in name mostly. I'm not saying he isn't worthy of many many votes....he did carry a good platform and I did agree with him on many issues but ultimatley, when I look at God in the eye and He asks me what I did for my country....I'd rather say I defended the most innocent of lives than I supported gay rights. See, as an individual who is friends with a handful of gays and whose bson has a paternal gay bgrandma, I also know the truth about many of their lifestyles. Though I do think they deserve better legal protection for healthcare and certainly equal rights in the sector of the working class, especially those who are living according to God's teachings. Sodomy is a sin. It is a very real sin and I can not and will not support making the union of a man and another man or a woman and another woman seen as the equivilant in the eyes of God as the union of a man and woman. That's a lie. The love they share for one another is not a lie and shouldn't be looked at as "evil" but once you enter in the pleasures of the flesh.....it offends God. Don't believe me? Read the Good Book. So see, though it may appear that Kerry is more sympathetic towards "the less fortunate" he is actually trying to make it easier for those who are gay to fall into sin. Would you rather have a friend that leads you to sin or to appreciate everything God has given you....even the most "challenging" of lives? I'm a sinner just like you but if I knew that you were going to lead me closer to temptation and possibly to the evil one, would I want you to lead my country? I think not. To me that is what being Catholic is all about. Unity. Not seperation. I'm not talking about the pseudounity Kerry's camp speaks of either. Im neither Republican nor Democrat. They both have good points and bad points. But when it comes right down to it, things like the abortion issue.....that's what's going to shape the future of this nation. Just watch. If Democrats realized the truth of abortion...the hidious amounts of federal money that fund this haneous procedure and leaves many women and men bruised for life on more than one level, they'd have my vote too. Until then, it's Bush all the way.

[blueyes113]

Cobb,

Luke 4:18-19 (Revised Standard Edition)

18: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed ,

19: to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

Peace

[Cheryl62]

This is all getting very theological, but we will never be able to agree on what the Word says, if other threads are any indication.

In what you quoted, Christ is speaking of Himself, and of His salvation. Not of his followers trying to overthrow even the oppressive Roman government, or any other, which He made clear He didn't support, despite the persecution they were facing.

I can't find any reading of the Gospels to remotely suggest that violence is acceptable. Turn the other cheek, give your cloak also if someone takes your coat, etc., etc., etc. So I find it hard to accept the idea that Christ would approve of us killing anyone, whether they were trying to kills us or not, much less of bombings that kill non-combatants.

But then, I somehow don't think he'd approve of the extra cars, bigger houses, or buying of DVDs, vacations, or whatnot, while even one person in the world was hungry. Sometimes I feel very afraid we are all living like the rich young man, or as those lukewarm ones He said He wanted to spew from his mouth, and I wonder what He'll have to say. The sheep and the goats parable really gets to me. There was a Keith Green song about that years ago that always made me think - do I feed the poor, visit the sick and those in prison - and in doing so serve Him - or do I turn my back? Most of us do very little, in all honesty, and certainly far less than we could.

Please don't take that the wrong way. I'm not condemning any of you. It's my own spiritual struggle, because I don't live up to that standard - far from it. But that's what keeps me from moralizing to others about what the Word requires of them. I'm having a hard enough time figuring it out for myself, and so too busy with the "mote" in my own eye to try to lecture others about the "speck' in theirs.

[Cobb]

In verses 18 and 19, Luke is referring back to the prophecy of Isaiah (specifically 61:1-2) he fulfilled those prophecies because he was the Messiah, it is not a call to arms.

Here's another from Isaiah

Isaiah, Chapter 2

2: In days to come the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; all the nations shall stream to it.

3: Many peoples shall come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4: He shall judge between nations, and shall arbitrate for many peoples; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sward against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

[Cobb]

Cheryl62, no offense at all. I just had a hard time with the story of the father justifying the war in Iraq to his son. Not only does it concern me that he would instill that level of fear in his child. But, the idea of lashing out at another.... on a thread that started with a feel good story about community and prayer, rubbed me wrong.

I too have great concerns about the materialism in our society and agreed with all you said on our responsibilities in the world. My goal is to do the best I can, knowing I'll fail, learn from it and try to do better.

On that note, the best I can do now is get to bed so I'll be fresh to try again tomorrow.

Regards, Cobb

[blueyes113]

I merely posted the quote to show that Bible quotes can be found to fit almost any situation. I don't think any of us likes the idea of war and killing. It's against our Christian beliefs. But torture and oppression are also against our beliefs. I find it interesting that you saw the story as lashing out at someone. I didn't see that at all. I saw it as stopping a bully before he could oppress the entire neighborhood. Standing up for someone who could not protect herself. I must agree that I didn't like the idea of scaring a 9 year old like that, and would never condone such a thing. But, as far as I know, this was a story to demonstrate what happens if you let the bully get to your front door and not an actual event. I, too, am a bit idealistic and would like to see an end to all the oppression in the world. But I am realistic enough to know that it will not happen in our lifetime, if ever. There will always be bullies. I am also realistic enough to realize that turning the other cheek will not stop oppression or terrorism.

I can only pray that God will guide us and our leaders.

And now I am off to bed.

Peace to all!

[mj77]

Thanks those of you for sharing bits of the Word and perspectives and such. I think this is where we grow as Christians--even if we don't see the same on certain scriptures. I do believe there is a time for war and peace. I do believe much of the old testiment as did Christ--though Christ did bring much clarity to legalism of the old testiment. Thank you for encouraging me to grow in my faith and knowlege of the Word by challenging me to do a Bible study. I need to make more time for it anyway.

Peace and blessings to all of you and thank you for keeping the discussion peaceful and respectful .

[mj77]

I was just thinking about blueyes post and my children. I know that Christ talks of turning the other cheek, but as God often protects us in ways we don't ever realize, we too protect our own children in ways they don't realize. If someone were ever to hurt my child, I would not stand back and allow them to continue. And, if I was in a position, I might do anything to protect thier well-being even if it meant being physical. If a woman is being violated should she just allow it to continue? I know we can't solve all the world's problems but don't we have some sort of God given moral obligation to say "enough is enough!"? I know it doesn't have to always be done with violence. But there comes a point when perhaps it might be the only way. I am just talking of war in general--not nessisarily this specific one we're in. Even Christ had enough when people were selling in the temple and He turned the tables over. There are interesting points that are being brought up. Cheryl62, I can see where you mention it's a struggle because I see that too. I think war has to be done justfully and carefully. Was it done this time? I sure hope so. I think there is so much many of us just don't know. But I know that Bush knows he will stand before God and give an account to what he's done, so I know he acts with great caution. Personally, I can rest in that.