[coachmur]

I liked your post Jody, and the peace and comfort received from the Word of God is unsurpassable. God's word is very clear about what is right and wrong. The bottom line is whether or not each individual person desires to live by that truth or not. I still am shocked to find such discussions on an adoption forum. If it weren't for some woman making a choice to go through a pregnancy, followed by a more difficult choice to turn the job of raising her child over to someone, more often than not someone she doesn't even know, most of us would not have reason to even belong to this forum. Wow!

I won't even go into the "abstinence" discussion other than to share my own personal experience. I was a virgin when I married and I am so thankful that I was. So was my husband. We have never had to deal with the pain of giving ourselves to someone else and then losing that relationship, there aren't jealousies over former partners in our marriage, we have never had an STD, we have been happily married for nearly 27 years. We have five children, four through birth, one adopted, that I am proud to say we have raised with the same beliefs. I would be so scared for my beautiful sons, and beautiful daughters to be involved sexually with multiple partners because even though yes, it is their right, it involves so much pain and loss. As a mom I have always gone to any great lengths to prevent my children from hurting, and I dare say each and every one of you have too.

I don't think one person reading this thread can honestly argue the fact that even though it is their right to have sex with whomever they please, whenever they please, and to get pregnant with whomever, whenever, and yes even to end that pregnancy whenever they please, it would have been so much simpler, and far more rewarding to just wait for the one person whom you want to spend the rest of your life and bypass the rest of the pain. How can that be wrong?

[Jody M]

Thanks Crick for sharing and this forum is a Christian forum, and even Christians can have diverse opinions- but we do embrace God's word, the Holy Bible as our plumbline for the beliefs we do embrace. I wanted to share a poem I wrote in 1998- about 10 years ago- after reuniting with my birth family and discovering the truth of my adoption story and birth.
The poem shares my overflowing gratitude to my birth mother, my adoptive parents and most importantly to my precious Heavenly Father- who has been the one with me daily through it all.

An Adoptee's Praise( A poem of faith from my adoption journey )

Sovereign Lord, My Great Creator, Maker of wind and skies and sea.
I'm filled with wonder how your loving hands created me, an adoptee.
Master Designer, Skillful Potter, you're the Life, the Truth, the Way.
Your love shaped me and formed me from some still and lifeless clay.
My First Father, One All Knowing, through your love I was conceived.
I was in your plan and in your heart, for it was in me that you believed.
There in secret, in the darkness, you were there when my life took form.
Inside my birth mom you hid and sheltered me, kept me safe from every storm.
God My Maker, Master Artist, Chosen Seed of Israel's race.
You painted colors of the brightest rainbow to reflect in me my birth mom's face.
Breathed your life in me, Oh Mighty Spirit, One the winds and waves obey.
Stilled my anxious cries, sought a family who would a sure foundation lay.
You heard the weeping of my birth mom, knowing motherhood was not an option.
You walked beside her, lit a pathway to a plan you called adoption.
Mighty Anchor, My Protector, I felt adrift in a world so dark.
Your love guided me, like baby Moses, you cradled me safe inside your 'ark'
You went before me, prepared a better way, heard the cries of a woman barren.
Filled her lifelong dreams, gave her new hope, Oh you precious Rose of Sharon!
You chose a mother, who came to love you, in whom your faith and grace did dwell
Through her guidance and caring counsel, she mirrored your love,
Emmanuel.
Master Builder, Shaper of Mountains, I trace your blueprint in the sand.
My adoption shaped me through loving choices into a pattern you had planned.
Holy Spirit, Precious Heavenly Dove, you've caused my heart to cry and sing.
Your ever presence through my adoption journey has kept me safe beneath your wing!

[Jody M]

I wanted to comment to Janey Two because I am very very sorry that you felt insulted by my mentioning that my birth mother would have likely chosen abortion in 1955 had it been legal. I was definately not speaking for birth moms in general here at all and I was clearly talking of my own birth mother's situation. By rereading that post I mentioned all the facts in my birth mother's fragile circumstances. She was 32, in a rocky marriage, and she struggled with cancer, a communicable disease, alcoholism, extreme financial issues, and 3 children born before me to provide for. I was born 2 months prematurely due to complications she had in the pregnancy- and knowing her fragile condition, giving birth to me would have been considered very risky. My birth family did not embrace any religious convictions- so knowing all these things about her specific case- would lend one to believe she likely would have opted for abortion if it had been legal. ( mostly due to the fragile state of her pregnancy and the high risk to her)
I just posted a poem regarding my adoption journey and my warm sentiments towards my birth mother. I have been an adoption triad support group leader in Indiana and Chicagoland for 13 years. Many of my closest friends are birth mothers. I respect and honor them and have helped and encouraged and supported countless birth mothers in my group, online and by phone navigate their unresolved grief and loss in adoption and challenges in reunion.

I hope this clarifies my ongoing care and support to birth mothers and that my statement was only pointing to my birth mom and her pregnancy.

Blessings, Jody

[Mom2blessings]

Originally Posted by paigeturner

This is the first time I've heard the term, "lighted botched abortion". From my own experience I can tell you about the real, lasting effects on a woman who placed a child for adoption after hearing from adult after adult that she couldn't parent. She would be a poor parent. She could never give her child what he needed. She needed to GIVE her child to two parents. How would you, as an adoptive parent, like to hear the term, “LIGHTED BOTCHED ADOPTION”?

Luckily, we live in a country where we have the ability to choose. We live in a country where a Sarah Palin or a Hillary Clinton, two polar opposites, can achieve the presidency in our lifetime! We will, in the next few weeks have either our first black president or our first female vice-president serving our country. History!

Why then do I feel so frustrated?

Because, I see many American voters as “Sheeple”; they wait to hear from their preacher, their teacher or their significant other HOW to think. They vote on one issue. Or they don’t vote at all (even better IMO).

We wont change each other’s minds on this or any other thread. Life does that for us. Reading others’ views is educational and entertaining for me though. We are very lucky people to be able to espouse our views in public, without the threat of violence upon ourselves or the ones we love! (yes, I have had wine tonight)

Trust me when I say, I wait for NO ONE to tell me what or how to think, other than God himself. I think it's downright offensive for you to imply that because I am pro-life, I wait for my pastor, significant other or anyone to tell me what to think. I have never once heard my pastor preach on abortion. Not once. *I* would not have married my husband if he was not pro life, so he doesn't have to tell me what to think.

I do not understand at all why it would bother you for me to use the term "lighted botched abortion". They can and do happen. Would denying that abortions that happen legally in the US causes infertility or severe emotional pain that lasts a lifetime for many women make it less so? I can not pretend botched abortions don't happen today. There are too many testimonies.

I'm sorry if you have suffered the pain of loss as a first mother. I sincerely feel for you. I think there needs to be reform in the private adoptions secter.

Do you think it would have been easier to have an abortion?

[paigeturner]

I'm sorry you were offended. That was not my intention. To answer your question, I imagine having an abortion would have been far easier. But, that is not something I would choose for myself, as I've stated repeatedly. I wasn't particularly bothered by the term Botched Light Abortion or whatever it was, I was just pointing out that there are other things that are damaging and painful that occur in a crisis pregnancy.

I'll happily answer your questions. Funny how the questions I ask in post #34 have been ignored; they weren't rhetorical.

[KarynB]

Originally Posted by Mom2blessings

Do you think it would have been easier to have an abortion?

Wow - that is REALLY out of line, and downright cruel. Not sure why you would think this would be a non-offensive thing to say. I find it really sad that we can't have a discussion without it coming to this....

[KarynB]

Originally Posted by paigeturner

I'm sorry you were offended. That was not my intention. To answer your question, I imagine having an abortion would have been far easier. But, that is not something I would choose for myself, as I've stated repeatedly. I wasn't particularly bothered by the term Botched Light Abortion or whatever it was, I was just pointing out that there are other things that are damaging and painful that occur in a crisis pregnancy.

I'll happily answer your questions. Funny how the questions I ask in post #34 have been ignored; they weren't rhetorical.

LOL! Looks like I was more offended by that post than you were (-:

[paigeturner]

Originally Posted by KarynB

LOL! Looks like I was more offended by that post than you were (-:

I'm a lobbyist! I have very thick skin!

[coachmur]

LOL! Looks like I was more offended by that post than you were (-:

__________________




How would that be offensive to one who supports abortion as a "choice" for a woman?

[lovemy2boys]

Originally Posted by coachmur

__________________




How would that be offensive to one who supports abortion as a "choice" for a woman?

Because she's calling Paige out on a personal decision that she made...

Look. She is not saying that she supports abortion. She supports a woman's right to make her own choices...Maybe it's hard to distinguish, but there it is.

Sorry Paige - didn't mean to talk for you.

[KarynB]

lovemy2boys - Exactly...thanks for clarifying that. The question was not asked in a way that was really trying to get at further understanding.

Who in their right mind is "for abortion"? Some people are for a woman's right to choose - big difference! And just because you support a woman's right to choose, doesn't mean you'd ever make that choice for yourself. Or you can't imagine you would.

Again - sorry Paige - not meaning to speak for you as obviously you can handle this (-: Just wanted to clarify my point....

[Mom2blessings]

I didn't answer this originally because I had decided to no longer participate on adoption.com. It would seem that I'm in a minority in my both my faith and view on some things. My purpose was not to argue or attack. My purpose was not to "self righteous" or holier than anyone else. The fact that I believe the Bible holds Christians to a higher standard than the world does, does not make me self righteous...it makes me more aware of my need for a saviour. I did not even read these questions till just now. I only came back because I had an email saying someone sent me a PM but my box was full. I was trying to identify the messenger.
[quote]

Originally Posted by paigeturner

Well wait…you chose to circumcise not one, but two boys knowing that it would cause them pain? Isn’t that torture? (YES, I am cringing while typing) You are right the debate can go on forever. What’s interesting to me is that I stated that I do not believe that first trimester abortions are wrong. You’ve used circumcised children and 20 weeks and beyond in your arguments…I only stated first trimester.

To answer your questions, my first child, I was told "it didn't hurt". I did this because I was told it was "best" by the doctor. If I had known then what I know now, he would NOT have been circumcised like that. I DO believe it was torturous and cruel. He was my oldest, and I had never spoken to a pediatrician for his opinion, so I didn't know why it was best or how it felt for the child. My next child to be circumcised I talked to the pediatrician and found out that there is a cancer only known to uncircumcised men. So THIS time, I made an informed decision...but I insisted that they use a LOT of anesthesia. So no, this was not torture...unless you consider the injections torture.

And, you quoted Exodus to me. Do you follow your life from the Old Testament?

Please remember I didn't just start quoting scripture to you...you asked me where in the Bible does it say this. This was not a sermon intended for you, this was an answer to your question.

Do you pick and choose what works for you between the books?

No. The NT does not negate the OT. The OT law's purpose was to show people their sin. It's ceremonial law ended, when the perfect sacrifice was made, so we no longer have to follow that.

BTW, is life a beating heart or a thinking brain? What is a soul?

What does the Bible say? It says that if 2 people were fighting and they hit/harmed a woman who is with child, if that woman loses her child, then the man doing the harm is to be punished. God values life from the womb. Since it does not say how old the unborn child is, I have every reason to assume it's any stage of pregnancy.

What is your stance on organ donation? Does the bible have a position? And if it does, do you choose from the New or Old?

I'm on the organ donor list, should I have an untimely death, so I'm for it. I do not know the Bible's position on this, but I've never read anything against it. Since I see no conflict between the old or new, that's not a problem for me.

What about Terri Schiavo? Did modern medicine keep her alive or kill her?

That was beyond tragic. However, I don't remember the case well enough to comment completely. I know they denied her water...and that was just awful in my opinion. It's one thing to not use medicine to keep someone alive...it's a completely different thing to deny someone water and food. Two totally different concepts in my opinion.

Again, if you choose not to seek an abortion, I support you. If you choose to have one…again, I support you because it is your choice, your body, your conscience, your god.

Who will protect the children? If a mom decides she wants to hurt her already born baby, or throws the newborn baby in the trash she's awful...but if she had went just 1 day before, she could have had an abortion. Why is that okay? These little ones have no voice. The same conscience that I have that would not allow me to have an abortion, will not allow me to vote for someone who wants to harm our most innocent.

[Mom2blessings]

Originally Posted by KarynB

Wow - that is REALLY out of line, and downright cruel. Not sure why you would think this would be a non-offensive thing to say. I find it really sad that we can't have a discussion without it coming to this....

No it wasn't. This was not asked with a mean spirit and I genuinely wanted to know her answer. I believe the posted mentioned that she was a birthmother and how difficult this was for her. Her previous posts seem to indicate to me that she thought maybe having an abortion would have been easier.

I did not feel it was out of place at all, considering how open she was about her feelings as a birthmom or abortion. She obviously felt (understandably) giving up her child was terribly difficult and she was arguing for another.

[Mom2blessings]

Originally Posted by paigeturner

I'm sorry you were offended. That was not my intention. To answer your question, I imagine having an abortion would have been far easier. But, that is not something I would choose for myself, as I've stated repeatedly. I wasn't particularly bothered by the term Botched Light Abortion or whatever it was, I was just pointing out that there are other things that are damaging and painful that occur in a crisis pregnancy.

I'll happily answer your questions. Funny how the questions I ask in post #34 have been ignored; they weren't rhetorical.

You know, there are tons of women who are suffering from the effects of abortion. I understand that you feel that having an abortion would have been far easier...but if you haven't done that you really don't know which is hardest/easiest. (And neither do I...)

I so sorry for your pain, with the loss of your child. I truly hope you are able to find some peace with this.
Personally, I think there should be a LOT of major reforms in the private adoption world. I started not to even seek adoption because of this. I went to webites of birth mom's and cried for them, got angry and wished I could make it better. I read on these boards for a couple of years before I finally started fostering. I wound up doing foster adoption instead (and even this needs a lot of work, but not as much as the private secter in my opinion).

[paigeturner]

Thanks for your clarifying post. I for one hope you don't leave. Nothing's more boring or useless IMO than a bunch of people nodding at each other in agreement. Of course, I've been known to play devil's advocate for a bit-o-fun.

To clarify further, please don't think I've spent the past 25 years wallowed in the pain of my decision to place a child. I'm disgustingly well-adjusted. The deep grief of loss diminished years ago. And though I've never had an abortion, I know many women who have and none of them have suffered long-term effects from their choice. That doesn't mean that no woman does...after all we all live with the consequences of our actions in some way.

On organ donation, you might want to spend some time reading up on some latest articles. Just over the weekend I read a piece (too sick at the moment to look it up) about some controversial decisions doctors are making in taking organs a bit earlier than they have before (I think I saw it on CNN as well). They used to go by brain death, now they are taking organs based on the beating heart. Some are taking organs as early as 75 seconds after the heart stops beating. What's controverisial about such action is that with modern medicine it is fairly easy to get a heart beating again, though life might not be sustained. I'll poke around later and see if I can find a link.

Anyway, the above doesn't matter to me as an organ donor. I am a freak about this and go so far as to carry a living will in the glove box of my car and in my briefcase when I travel. I am also voting yes for WA I-1000 the death with dignity act.

Anyway, consider staying. I expect I'll learn a lot from you.