[Mom2blessings]

Originally Posted by coachmur

Bethany B, just FYI in post #18 you said you are "pro choice" but after reading your next post I think you meant "pro life". Just thought I would let you know that.

As to the question of where in the Bible does it specifically say abortion is wrong, the first time would be in Exodus Chapter 20 where it says, "thou shall not KILL" The NIV actually says "murder" instead of kill. Murder is defined as a premeditated and deliberate act. Abortion definately fits the criteria. I also think that as humans we can justify anything that we want to, whether it be right or wrong. All of the arguing will not prove anything. We can argue till we are blue in the face and spout our beliefs on these forums but few if any of us will ever admit that the other is right. What I would challenge each of us to do is to get down on our faces, before the one and only true God and ask Him to show us the truth. His word is clear if one only takes the time to study, and learn the truth. That would be the best thing any of us could do. Let us all stop doing what "we" think is right and all start doing what God says is right.

Right and Wrong is so clear if only we would open our eyes and our hearts to the truth. There will come a day when we stand before God and be judged according to the deeds we have done while we were here on earth.

In regards to paigeturners question about stoning the woman caught in adultery you are misquoting God's word if you think that Jesus wanted her stoned for her sin. That is actually an awesome passage of scripture. You should read it. It is John 8:1-11. Basically what happened was that some men who were teachers of the law and Pharisees brought this woman in before Jesus because she was caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of everybody, telling them what she had done and asking Jesus, or actually telling Jesus that the Law of Moses said any woman caught in that sin should be stoned, then they asked Jesus "what are you going to do about this?" They were looking to trap Jesus because the Romans did not allow the Jews to carry out death sentences, so if Jesus had said to stone her, he could have been in conflict with the Romans. If he had said not to stone her, he could have been accused of being unsupportive of the law. Jesus put the ball right back in their court by saying to them "if any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her". Because none of them (or none of us, for that matter) were without sin they all just had to turn and walk away until only Jesus and the woman were left. Jesus then said "woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "no one sir, she said" "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." so as you see, Jesus did not condemn her to death by stoning, but he also did not condone what she had done. Praise God we are not living under the law because Jesus went to the cross for us and took our punishment upon Himself. His life was the atonement for our sin unlike in the Old Testament times when a person sinned they had to go out, kill the best calf or lamb, gut it out, build a fire, and make a sacrifice to God. That would be difficult for me even though I live on a ranch full of fat calves, and a few fat lambs and I might add that I am a great shot with a pistol and a rifle but I daresay it would be next to impossible for those of you who live in cities. Most of you probably would have no idea where to even begin such a project, lol. The bottom line is "yes, we are all sinners, we all make bad choices, but God is always there ready and willing to forgive us. We only need ask Him.

Well, there is your sermon. Good thing it is Sunday, LOL.

I knew I liked you from previous posts . I'm home from church with a sick child so I enjoyed your sermon, lol.

I took her to mean the old testament passages though.

[Mom2blessings]

Originally Posted by EZ2Luv

I am a Christian and I am votinfg for McCain/Palin, but because I am prolife does not mean that is the ONLY reason why they will get my vote.

EZ

You know, the pro life issue is a deciding factor for me...but even if both candidates were pro life, I'd probably vote for McCain/Palin anyhow for other reasons also.

[Butterflies2]

For anyone who thinks that the president will not have any actual involvement in the abortion issue, please consider this bill currently in comittee:

The Freedom of Choice Act
Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)&

"SUMMARY AS OF:
4/19/2007--Introduced.

Freedom of Choice Act - Declares that it is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to: (1) bear a child; (2) terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability; or (3) terminate a pregnancy after fetal viability when necessary to protect her life or her health.
Prohibits a federal, state, or local governmental entity from: (1) denying or interfering with a woman's right to exercise such choices; or (2) discriminating against the exercise of those rights in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information. Provides that such prohibition shall apply retroactively.
Authorizes an individual aggrieved by a violation of this Act to obtain appropriate relief, including relief against a governmental entity, in a civil action."

(Obama is one of the co-sponsors of this bill)

It is in the president's job to sign in or veto bills.

[paigeturner]

Well wait…you chose to circumcise not one, but two boys knowing that it would cause them pain? Isn’t that torture? (YES, I am cringing while typing) You are right the debate can go on forever. What’s interesting to me is that I stated that I do not believe that first trimester abortions are wrong. You’ve used circumcised children and 20 weeks and beyond in your arguments…I only stated first trimester.

And, you quoted Exodus to me. Do you follow your life from the Old Testament? Do you pick and choose what works for you between the books? BTW, is life a beating heart or a thinking brain? What is a soul? What is your stance on organ donation? Does the bible have a position? And if it does, do you choose from the New or Old? What about Terri Schiavo? Did modern medicine keep her alive or kill her?

Again, if you choose not to seek an abortion, I support you. If you choose to have one…again, I support you because it is your choice, your body, your conscience, your god.

[paigeturner]

Originally Posted by Mom2blessings

Pro-choice people in general (not you in particular, though you have mentioned this in your posts) often use the "botched back alley abortion" reason for making it legal. What I find missing from this argument is the "lighted botched abortion" women who are suffering horribly from the effects of abortion. The temporary fix of an abortion will not take care of the needs of these women. There are very real, lasting, effects of abortion but rarely do we hear about these. They are both physical and emotional.

This is the first time I've heard the term, "lighted botched abortion". From my own experience I can tell you about the real, lasting effects on a woman who placed a child for adoption after hearing from adult after adult that she couldn't parent. She would be a poor parent. She could never give her child what he needed. She needed to GIVE her child to two parents. How would you, as an adoptive parent, like to hear the term, “LIGHTED BOTCHED ADOPTION”?

Luckily, we live in a country where we have the ability to choose. We live in a country where a Sarah Palin or a Hillary Clinton, two polar opposites, can achieve the presidency in our lifetime! We will, in the next few weeks have either our first black president or our first female vice-president serving our country. History!

Why then do I feel so frustrated?

Because, I see many American voters as “Sheeple”; they wait to hear from their preacher, their teacher or their significant other HOW to think. They vote on one issue. Or they don’t vote at all (even better IMO).

We wont change each other’s minds on this or any other thread. Life does that for us. Reading others’ views is educational and entertaining for me though. We are very lucky people to be able to espouse our views in public, without the threat of violence upon ourselves or the ones we love! (yes, I have had wine tonight)

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by paigeturner

Why then do I feel so frustrated? Because, I see many American voters as “Sheeple”; they wait to hear from their preacher, their teacher or their significant other HOW to think. They vote on one issue. Or they don’t vote at all (even better IMO).

Paige, I just had to tell you that I love the term you've come up with ~ Sheeple. I'm always railing at the television news, yelling about how so many people are sheep. So sheeple is now my new word, lol.

Originally Posted by paigeturner

We are very lucky people to be able to espouse our views in public, without the threat of violence upon ourselves or the ones we love!

That is true, unless of course you happen to work in an abortion clinic or if you're a doctor who performs abortions. But the idiots who shoot the doctors and bomb the clinics seem to think it's alright if they murder other people...somehow the way they interpret the Bible justifies the deed in their own minds. Who's playing God in those situations??

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Paige,
That is true, unless of course you happen to work in an abortion clinic or if you're a doctor who performs abortions. But the idiots who shoot the doctors and bomb the clinics seem to think it's alright if they murder other people...somehow the way they interpret the Bible justifies the deed in their own minds. Who's playing God in those situations??

I can say Amen! to this.

BTW, If "Thou shall not kill" is the rational behind being against abortion and you are truly pro-life, how can you support a President that believes in staying in Iraq for "a long, long time" where there have been hundreds of thousands killed... including children, by the hands of American soldiers? Is an Iraqi child somehow less worthy than an American child? Is an Iraqi adult somehow less important than an American soldier? Because our Republican, pro-life president fails to speak of the number of Iraqi lives lost. In a war that your pro-life candidate has vowed to stay in "until the job is done."

To me, being pro-life is not something in which I pick and choose over which lives are more worthy than others.

[Janeytwo]

[quote=Mom2blessings] My mother struggled immensely to feed her 4 kids, thanks to a deadbeat dad. We lived for a year without running water. We had holes in the floor, ceilings and walls. [quote]

Your mother sounds a lot like mine. Tough and brave. I commend them both for the things they faced. In my mother's case, I am thankful she followed her own counsel and not "society's" dictates that she stay married in order to be respectable. She committed a sin in the eyes of many different religions. She divorced. And probably saved mine and my siblings souls in the process. I use the word "souls" because I don't even want to think about who we would've been if she hadn't made the choice to end her marraige.

One thing though, I am hoping in what I'm reading that you're not romantacizing poverty. Poverty is horrific and there is nothing noble in it. I can tell you from personal experience that the last thing I'd want for any of our children is for them to know what it's like to go 3 days with nothing to eat but a bag of pumpkin seeds and some watered down coffee-mate from an old jar in the back of the cupboard. The only time I find myself at odds with others over adoption is when it involves someone poor who is considering placing. In the case of poverty, I would always recommend surrendering because no child should be subjected to poverty.

And therein lies one of my biggest problem with Pro-Life. I often hear Pro-lifers talking about life being sacred while at the same time supporting cuts in welfare. I mean, okay....are these people interested in the care of our country's children or aren't they? Which is it? It's not enough to say, "I'm against abortion" I need to hear that Pro-Lifers are "for" the children that are being born. And quite frankly, anyone who supports cuts in welfare, education and health care for poor families is not for children. I believe that that may be what Brenda was trying to say though I am only forumlating things the way that they appear on the boards.

Also, I understand and do respect what you're saying in that you would "live in a tent" in order to provide for your children. Clearly you love them.

But the State wouldn't care about that. Your love would be of no concern to them whatsoever. Your children would be taken from you on the grounds that you were unfit and unable to provide a stable home for them. It has happened before. And I would submit that in this day and age, your mother and my mother would've suffered the same fate and then you, me, our siblings....we would've ended up in foster care.

I'm reiterating here but as I've said a few times in this forum, I would ask everyone, Please PLEASE do not romantacize poverty. It is an ugly and violent life.

Thank you.

[KarynB]

Originally Posted by bromanchik

I can say Amen! to this.

BTW, If "Thou shall not kill" is the rational behind being against abortion and you are truly pro-life, how can you support a President that believes in staying in Iraq for "a long, long time" where there have been hundreds of thousands killed... including children, by the hands of American soldiers? Is an Iraqi child somehow less worthy than an American child? Is an Iraqi adult somehow less important than an American soldier? Because our Republican, pro-life president fails to speak of the number of Iraqi lives lost. In a war that your pro-life candidate has vowed to stay in "until the job is done."

To me, being pro-life is not something in which I pick and choose over which lives are more worthy than others.

Beautiful point, Bromanchild - well said!

Paige - again, everything you said is right on IMO. Why in the world do we feel the need to espouse or impose our values on other people? Why can't we decide that abortion is wrong for us due to religious/moral reasons, but realize not everyone feels the same way? So why can't they have access to services needed/wanted, while you make decision for you and your family?

And I am surprised no one is differentiating between different circumstances of abortion here. Hasn't Sarah Palin said she is pro-life no matter what the circumstances - even in case of rape and incest? It is one thing to be pro-life in trems of birth control, but a different one when we are talking about these situations. And if anyone wants to see the effects of women being forced to carry their rapists baby (whether relinquished or parented) head over to Rwanda after the genocide of 1994 - or read about it and it may change your thoughts.

I am not specifically pro-life or pro-choice. As Paige said - I support other women's right to make that decision for themselves. Then I make the decision for myself and answer to myself, my conscience and my god.

[alinev]

I have been following this thread for 2 days and I am now more clear then ever about why we are a nation so lacking in solutions, we don't really want them. It is much more important to claim righteous indignation, from either side, then it is to work together to find solutions. Partisan politics at it's best among non politicians. This thread is a sampling of the people who should be the MOST interested in finding a means to end unplanned pregnancies. Instead, attacking each other's belief systems seems to provide more satisfaction.

This is a very difficult time in our history. Given what I am reading here, we all have reason to be very frightened.

[paigeturner]

So, alinev,

Let’s hear a solution from you. Or, did you just drop in to be self righteous? I used to believe that if all the strong women, who were so passionate on both sides, would get together, crisis pregnancy could come to an end. The problem is that in my experience there is one side that is so caught up in the whole “sex” issue that they can’t get past it to solve anything. Abstinence only is their battle cry. There’s one thread here where a poster talks about “teaching masturbation” being wrong. My response: You mean it needs to be taught? What if people learn they’ve been doing it wrong all this time????

I started at home. No subject was taboo for discussion. My daughters knew that when they decided to become sexually involved that they had options, many options, for birth control. They knew that it was up to them to protect themselves. Their boyfriends were expected to wear condoms in addition to that. Hey, so far, so good. But what about those kids who have parents who leave it to a nice dinner with dad and a virginity ring (or whatever they’re called)? What about those kids who have parents who don’t let them take a comprehensive sex ed class because they’ve taught their kids to be “pure”? What about those girls who are victims of rape or worse?

I’d love to hear some answers, alinev….you first, because I’m tired.

[RavenSong]

The last time I checked, we already have an effective solution to preventing unplanned pregnancies, namely birth control. I mean, come on, Margaret Sanger was advocating for birth control and women controlling when and if they wanted to conceive children way back in the very early 1900's, over 100 years ago! The woman, who organized the association that would eventually become Planned Parenthood, went to jail on numerous occasions for disseminating this information in violation of the Comstock Act.

For what it's worth, I found out I was pregnant at the age of 16 when I went to my local Planned Parenthood to get on the Pill. I was trying to be responsible...I learned the hard way that one time without protection can easily result in pregnancy.

Kids need to be taught about available contraceptive measures, IMO. And birth-control methods need to be made available to them. I miss the "Free Clinics" of the old Hippie Days. Women of all ages who couldn't afford contraceptives were able to get them for free.

[alinev]

Paige Turner -

1. Treat the problem as a "disease". The social and economic weight of women and children living below the poverty level is enormous.
2. Free birth control. I am happy to pony up my tax dollars.
2. Education, education, education. How not to get pregnant and WHY not to get pregnant. Does the average individual understand the economic ramifications of raising a child?
3. Readdress the issues of "morality". In my opinion, it is immoral to leave people in the dark given the burden they will have to bear.

Things can change. 80 years ago women got the vote, 40 years ago segregation ended, in 2008 gays can marry. Things can change.

[Jody M]

I posted the original post to this thread and had been away for awhile and just returned home. It should not surprise us that a topic like this, that is at the CORE of who we are and the sanctity of all human life should be emotional and controversial. And it should be major issue in an election- for when you peel away all the layers of all other issues and get down to the basics,we all have had the blessing of life and being alive to experience this fascinating adventure. It is truly a privilege to me! I do feel extremely BLESSED that the decision in my birth mother's crisis pregnancy was LIFE. And ALL of us reading this cannot debate that our mothers chose Life for us. Ponder that. I am sharing the following and know that we all have our own beliefs and reasons for our passion for Life or for Choice. I do believe that God embraces each and every conceived life and knows and loves each one from the time in the womb- Psalm 139 so beautifully expresses that God sees us a precious and human and special from the time we are conceived- and in the womb.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
Also other verses that support Life.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. King James Version

Ezekiel 16 (New King James Version)

God’s Love for Jerusalem (this is an allergory but I do believe it emphasizes how God views each conceived life- but he does give man free choice. I would substitute the word America)

1 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: “Your birth and your nativity are from the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 As for your nativity, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed in water to cleanse you; you were not rubbed with salt nor wrapped in swaddling cloths. 5 No eye pitied you, to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you; but you were thrown out into the open field, when you yourself were loathed on the day you were born.
6 “And when I passed by you and saw you struggling in your own blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ Yes, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ 7 I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful.

[crick]

This is always a sensitive topic, so please remember to discuss respectfully.

We also need to remember where we are posting here. This is a Christian forum and while you don't need to believe the same beliefs here, do keep in mind that the religious topic, feeling & views are a part of this forum.

Thanks!
Crick