[shirleyville]

Hi, All!
My chocolate lab is laying behind my chair, snoring so loudly, it sounds like a 200 pound man is in here!!! LMAOPMP
Happy Easter to all of you who celebrate -- realizing that this holiday doesn't pertain to all who frequent Truvy's -- but for those who celebrate, I wish you all a wonderful, joyous and blessed time tomorrow with your family and friends.
I am making dinner for my husband and my dad. In the past several years, we didn't make Easter a "family" thing for us, since I always make Christmas and Thanksgiving for my family and my husband's family, we sort of just "bowed out" of Easter about five years ago. DH and I always went to a gathering that a friend of ours puts on (imagine, if you will, a group of totally inebriated Methodists, still in our church clothes, crawling around on our hands and knees in the music minister's yard, blindfolded, "feeling" for Easter Eggs!!! ) But since Dad is alone, now, we felt we should do something special with him.....so I'm cooking.
I know several of you are in the health field......and I have a question. I am looking for a term -- or the name of a specific "condition". When my mom was in ICU, on the vent, they were trying to tube feed/hydrate her.....but her arms, hands and upper body started to retain all the fluid and swell. Dr. Cranium ( ) said something about her capillaries were so collapsed that they couldn't carry anything anymore. A family friend (who used the term that I am looking for) who works at the hospital, told another friend of ours that mom's nurse said that once this happens, it's all over -- there's no recovering from it, and the body is shutting down. The friend who relayed this to me can't recall the term....and I was just sort of wanted to read about it. If any of that sounds familiar, let me know....I'm just interested.
Sandy -- thanks for the continued prayers for Henry's family. I haven't talked to them this week.....but I went to a church brunch on Friday, and one of the gals said LouAnn seems to be doing really well, considering. They must have had over a thousand pictures of Henry at the memorial, and they were all out on boards, so we could see them. One of the gals there does the "Creative Memories" scrapbook thing, and so we all pitched in to put together a really expensive, nice album for her to use to put all the pictures in, and organize things. We thought that since it was all out, it might be a useful way for her to get things in order.
Linnie -- Peter Pan is okay.....we are off this week for spring break, so we'll see what they come back with!!! LMAO Last year, they knew all their lines for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and then spring break sucked it all out of them!!! They didn't know a THING when they got back! This year, I applied a little pressure and told them when they returned, they would no longer be able to use their scripts on stage during rehearsals!! Hopefully, that will encourage them to study in the car on the way to Florida!! LMAO
Dad gave up the search for a wife....at least for now. I think he was just in a panic and couldn't imagine life alone. It's been two months and a day...and he's really coming along quite nicely. I mean he has his bad days, but we all do. I had one today, when I realized I couldn't call Mom to tell me how to make deviled eggs. I HATE deviled eggs, so I rarely make them, and never retain the recipe, when I do. I ALWAYS call Mom.......... It was sad....really sad.
Katnap -- I know exactly how it feels to all of the sudden realize that the person you've thought about all those years is a "real person".....with a real name and a real face.....real feelings, real thoughts, a real life. I felt that way when I learned about Mary Ellen. I mean intellectually, you KNOW they are "real people" all along, but there's something in that name.....hearing it for the first time.....that leads you into a whole new way of thinking and feeling.
I am glad you are feeling better!! (((warm hugs)))
Well, I should do something with my time......my husband has a cold and has gone to bed. Uniterrupted time is a hot commodity -- especially when you've been dealing with "sick man" syndrome all day!
Hugs to all of you!
Sally

[Linnie65]

especially when you've been dealing with "sick man" syndrome all day!

Ain't THAT the truth!!
Just stopping by for a minute. Happy Easter to all that celebrate.
See you Monday.

[skinnylou]

Sally~ possibly.....third spacing...or....anacarca(spelling don't have my Taber's Dictionary pronounced ana-sar-ca). Most likely anacarca.

[julie23]

hello all....

I just returned from visiting the parents for an Easter weekend.... I was surprised that I didn't have too much to catch up on here!!

I have been mulling over the pastor's sermon from this morning.... I think Easter sunday must be such an intimdating Sunday to preach.... because you have all these folks that never come to church that are suddenly sitting there.... and maybe, just maybe, if you give the "right" sermon... they will come back....

well.... anyway.... this sermon was NOT this pastor's best sermon... he is an extremely educated, articulate pastor... I LOVE his sermons.... but today... he did not do well..... his message wasn't clear.... I mean...

It was clear..... he took one little aspect of Easter.... the moment when Jesus was on the cross and he cried out "My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?"

and he turned those lines into a message on abandonment. Which wasn't a particularly clear message.... but one would sum it up with this:

Overcoming abandonment brings great joy.

now.... I say it wasn't clear because he touched on the reason that God turned away... which was Jesus was bearing all of our sin.... but he dropped that line pretty quick.... because of course, that puts the reason for abandonment on the person that was abandoned... and it was clear he did not want to do that...... and he never really explained HOW to overcome it... or exactly how Jesus did it.... it was just kind of muddled.... I left thinking that HE must be dealing with abandonment issues in his own life or in the life of his adopted son.

but the whole "overcoming abandonment brings great joy" has really STUCK with me today.....

I think of myself .... no matter what the reason.... I did abandon that baby.... (into safe, loving arms... certainly.... but still...) with that comes so much confusion.... shame... guilt.... heartache... etc.

I do not know for sure, but it seems that in reunion, people who are adopted may also struggle with confusion.... trust.... guilt.... etc.

now.... it seems that when we overcome all those issues surrounding the original abandonment.... there is tremendous joy..... greater joy than one could imagine.

this doesn't make much sense.... but I am still mulling it over... and I thought I would share it with you.... because you are all so insightful....

God bless,
julie

[skinnylou]

Julie~I read your post twice to see if I missed something. I think you got it! The minister may have had difficulty delivering his message but you got it any way.

I think of myself .... no matter what the reason.... I did abandon that baby.... (into safe, loving arms... certainly.... but still...) with that comes so much confusion.... shame... guilt.... heartache... etc.

A bitter pill to swallow but that is just what we did. We of course had those around us who made it such a noble act.

now.... it seems that when we overcome all those issues surrounding the original abandonment.... there is tremendous joy..... greater joy than one could imagine.

Yes, when we unpack the baggage we brought with us to reunion. We neatly fold our guilt, shame, and anger. We put it away in it's place. We are then ready to move forward in a neatly cleared relationship. Everything has it's place, everything in it's place.

[shirleyville]

WOW!
It's been a really long day.....very emotional for me, since Mom was always the big "Easter Bunny" in our lives, and I was left to fill those shoes......but I wanted to respond to the sermon. Don't know if I will make much sense, but I will take a stab at it! Don't hold it against me if I make no sense, okay??
First and foremost, I don't want to offend ANYONE....so please don't take what I have to say as a personal affront to anyone's personal beliefs -- I'm just sharing how I view things.
I want to start by saying that I've never, ever even considered the idea that Mary Ellen abandoned me!!! NEVER!!!!! The very idea that any of you feel that you did that, makes me feel sick -- literally!! Julie....Skinny......you didn't abandon your children -- I promise you!! I swear it on a stack of bibles, and I'll sacrifice my own salvation if I'm wrong!! Proxy, Deb.....all of you here, who are birthmoms -- listen up!! You DID NOT ABANDON YOUR CHILDREN!!!!!!!
Your children were created by God with a very specific purpose to fulfill......He chose your DNA combined with the DNA of the birthfather to create a very specific person, with very specific traits and talents. Your children were supposed to be placed on the path they needed to be on to fulfill their purpose. Just think about the lives they've touched and the world's they've changed just because they are here -- because they were on the paths they were on. Part of YOUR purpose -- part of YOUR reason for being here, was to make that happen.
Jesus cried, "My God, My God -- Why have you forsaken me", because in that moment, He represented the human faction. As humans, we do that in times of trial and despair, because we often can't see the "bigger picture" -- and the "bigger picture" is always something amazing on the other side. In the moment, we are human, and we feel there is no rhyme or reason for what we endure -- but Christ cried out like that to teach us faith. Faith in what we can not see, or understand -- faith in what lies on the other side. Feeling abandoned is the [b]human side[/B]....faith is knowing that we are placed on the path we are on because we need to fulfill a purpose, or to learn something to prepare us for a purpose that lies [b]ahead[/B]. Everything we endure is lined with gold, in the end -- but as humans, we sometimes can't see it .... or choose not to. Sometimes, we don't even look for it, because we are too consumed in earthly feelings and concerns. It's when we adopt real faith...the "big picture" mentality, that we can endure anything, because we know, without fail, that it's the precursor to something wonderful. We can't see it...we can't predict it....we can't feel it, in the moment -- but later, it's revealed. That's faith.
Jesus cried those words....He endured what He endured, to teach us.
And in true, pure faith, there IS Joy......joy like you can't imagine.
I've watched "The Passion" more times than I can count.....and in it, I saw pure joy. I wept -- but not for Jesus, because in the bigger picture, He was fulfilling His purpose. I wept because I know that I can endure anything because I have, inside my heart, the very thing Jesus wanted me to have. He didn't endure all the horrific events that He did just to be abandoned on the cross.....there was a "bigger picture" -- the biggest and the most beautiful picture ever painted!!
It's all about seeing what lies on the other side of every event............and if you look carefully, you will never find "abandonment" -- but something far deeper and far more wonderful than you can imagine.
But that's just my take on it!

Nighty Night!
Sally

[skinnylou]

Thank You Sally for your kind words! I know in my head that everything is as it should be. I still feel I abandoned my son in a most fundamental way. I walked on faith for sure. I let him go in faith that he was a child of God and would be cared for as such. He was/is, his parents are very attentive and I believe he gave them a run for their money! They are still there for him.

Were the terms above what you were looking for?

[shirleyville]

Were the terms above what you were looking for?

Anasarca sure sounds like it to me, but I haven't been able to get ahold of my mom's friend to check it out yet. She was with family, for Easter. I will give her a shout this morning, and see if that sounds like the term our other friend used.
I read about it....and it sure sounds like what happened to Mom!
Thanks a million for your help!
Hugs,
Sally

[julie23]

I'm a big one on dictionary definitions....

abandon: 1 : to give up with the intent of never again asserting or claiming an interest in (a right or property) 2 : to disassociate oneself from or forsake in spite of a duty or responsibility to <abandon one's child> 3 : to renounce one's obligations and rights under <abandon a contract> 4 : to fail purposely to bring to completion or fruition <abandon a crime> <abandon a lawsuit>

like skinny, I have to look at what I did square in the eye. I did abandon my daughter. I didn't even put up a fight... and we don't really need to go into the "why's" of that... I get the whole... "you were very young and under the control of those around you"... I get it....

I am sooo glad, Sally, that you never once for a moment considered yourself "abanded".... especially considering where your journey has taken you!! I do prefer your take on the whole cross thing....

I think that your words, Sally.... speak the truth of that moment on the cross.... it WAS about way more than that one brief moment that Jesus felt forsaken.... It was about getting through the pain.... about being human.... about faith...

I often describe my life today as a complete miracle... it kind of bugs my mom... because I give God total credit for where I am in my life... and I'm pretty sure she wants to share in the credit....

my life is all about the kind of faith you describe.

Faith in what we can not see, or understand -- faith in what lies on the other side.

I have lost much... endured much... but I have come out the other side to experience greater joy in God and life than I could possibly have known had I not had my life experiences....

hhhmmm.. something like that....

yes... it is not so much "overcoming abandonment" in as much as it is:

Overcoming painful life experiences brings great joy.

and in my case... one of my MOST painful experiences was the relinquishment of my daughter.....

thanks for your thoughts skinny... and sally...

julie

[katnap80]

Just a quick comment for Julie and others. I totally agree with Sally's wise words. We did not abandon our children. We conceived them, brought them into this world, put them in God's hands and he took over from there. Please believe this. You need not suffer guilt any more. You did not abandon your child. We signed over our "duty and responsibility of being her / his parent" to another couple, who assumed our role. In my heart I never abandoned the hope that someday I would "claim interest" in my daughters life.
Am off to bed to rest my weary bones.
Have a great day.
'K"

[RiverGal]

Sally ~ Thank you for such a positive spin.

I have a somewhat different view of what I "abandoned" when I relinquished Jennifer. I "abandoned" any chance of parenting her...of raising her behind my white picket fence. I "abandoned" my opportunity to be her mommy. I DID NOT abandon HER.

When my ex-husband left, he left a van here that needed work. Instead of paying to have it towed, (he wasn't getting another dime of my cash) I had a friend drag it to the side of a dark road and leave it...I abandoned the van. I had no concern about where it went from there, as long as it never came back here. My child, on the other hand, was placed in loving arms...with a deep concern for her needs being met and her life reaching its full potential.

I cannot wrap my mind around "abandonment." Not where she is concerned. I see what happens in China as abandonment...infant girls left in the woods, left in the markets, left on roadsides. I see abandonment as leaving a newborn in a dumpster, or in a public restroom. I did not do that to my child...not even close...and I will never accept nor embrace such a concept.

I have made many poor choices in my life...and I will make more before I die, I'm sure. Jennifer's adoption plan was NOT one of them. As much as I wish I could have been her mommy, I still believe that there was a greater plan for her life. Yep, I felt the brutal pain of seperation, and I still ache from time to time, but I am at peace because her parents and I gave her all we possibly could. I do not see that as abandonment.

Thank you, Sally.

~Deb

[FL_GirlByProxy]

Julie ~ You start the absolutely BEST conversations. Remember when we were discussing the thorn? I'm not sure how that all evolved, but I remember that it began with one of your posts!

Once again, I think we are getting wrapped up in the English language, the literal translations, and that's a good thing. Nothing like the complex English language to help us all wade through our feelings and perceptions! Our own definitions, our own views, brought here, bring on other perceptions, beliefs, emotions, etc.

I have carried so much guilt about relinquishing my birthson. Only now can I see that it all turned out okay, but I'll tell you, as recently as this past Saturday night, I was on the phone with my big sister, hashing out the past of 20 years ago, crying, pleading for her to understand my point of view (which she is incapable of). Fortunately, once I was off the phone and into my preparations for Sunday, I was able to let it go and get into the present. And we had a great Easter Sunday, and both my mom, and my big sister were there, as well as Jim. Here are my thoughts on abandonment:

With regard to me, my circumstances, I had always felt that I should have parented, that I should have been strong enough to overcome whatever was in my way. Only after dealing head on with alot of my perceptions here, along with therapy, have I arrived at a much different conclusion. Part of getting there was remembering what I truely felt 20 years ago, how trapped I really was. And part of getting there is also tuning in to my perception that I had, subconciously I think, 20 years ago. (This was really challenging). Rather than believing that I came up short on parenting, I percieve things as totally opposite. I signed those papers, absolutely. Why did I do that? How could I do that? Here goes, bear with me. I firmly believed that I rescued my birthson, rather than abandoned him. My family was not willing to help, and they were resentful, and exhibited feelings of shame, very clearly. The birthdad fled to another state on the day I went into labor. He never came to the hospital to see his child, and never called me. I tracked him down from the hospital, and he was really put out that I called him. (How's that for writing on the wall?) Still, why didn't I just buck up and parent anyway? Because I felt, without my siblings' support, my parents' support, and/or my boyfriend's support, I was doomed to fail. And I felt that no matter how much I loved my birthson, and I love him with everything that I have, it would have been impossible to protect him from everyone else's view that he was a burden, not a blessing from God (as I felt, a blessing). So while my perception of rescueing him may sound to some that I am letting myself and my guilt off the hook, it really is my perception. All it takes is a current conversation with a sibling to reinforce my point of view, as their perceptions of 20 years ago remain unchanged. They love Jim, and they are so happy he is in our lives. However, their beliefs of how things were or would have been when we talk about the past are pretty much the same as they were so long ago. One interesting thing that came from a conversation that I had with my older sis just the other night really blew me away. She believes that the agency, Catholic Charities, had me totally bullied and brainwashed. I agreed with her, I do believe this, as they constantly steered me to adoption and did not offer any resources or help as far as choosing to parent. It was really interesting to hear this from her though.

I have the blessing of hindsight now, seeing Jim so happy and connected with his mom and dad. I take alot of comfort in that. They have all shared so much with me, it's just incredible, a true God's blessing.

All along, since day one 20 years ago, I have held one conviction as true that has helped me very much. That is, that when I relinquished my son, I did it for his good, not for mine. I was not thinking of my future one bit, I really didn't care what happened to me at all at that point. I was always worried and concerned about him, and his future, safety and well being. There were just too many evil and daunting forces surrounding us to make successfully parenting my birthson seem even remotely possible. And when I say "successful" I am talking about the bare bones of parenting, about raising a child with the important things, self esteem, love from all around him, security. I'm not talking about material things at all. My "decision" had nothing to do with material things. I think that is a big part of the feelings around the word abandonment, even though in it's definition Julie pointed out this definition: "2 : to disassociate oneself from or forsake in spite of a duty or responsibility to <abandon one's child>". I think that is where Deb's words about abandonment really make a difference here:

I cannot wrap my mind around "abandonment." Not where she is concerned. I see what happens in China as abandonment...infant girls left in the woods, left in the markets, left on roadsides. I see abandonment as leaving a newborn in a dumpster, or in a public restroom. I did not do that to my child...not even close...and I will never accept nor embrace such a concept.

Relinquishing a child with the assurance and belief that he will be raised by loving parents in a good home is not abandonment, IMO, but is rather a selfless act of a mother who puts the needs of her child before the wants and needs of herself.

(Although, in China, I'm not sure that they have the same options we have regarding safely surrenduring a child, so I wonder if, when they leave a child in a public place, it is with the belief that the child will be found and adopted. As far as abandoning a child in an unsafe place, where death is imminent for the child, I think a person's mental state often needs to be considered. Being a mother and a birthmother, such an act only leaves me with the feeling that the mother either has absolutely no clue as to what she is doing (mental illness, temporary or permanent, shellshock), or has the coldest heart void of any decent human emotion, akin to that of a murderer or serial killer), or perhaps in the case of China, for instance, I think we have heard of other family members, not the mother, bringing the baby to an unsafe place, such as the woods. Please feel free to clear this up if you have heard or know different, as I am no expert by any means on what birthmothers in other countries go through. (DEB, please know that I'm not challenging your thoughts at all, just expanding with my own, trying to get inside a person's feelings/circumstances as to why she would leave her child in an unsafe place.)

[julie23]

LeeAnn said:

Once again, I think we are getting wrapped up in the English language, the literal translations, and that's a good thing. Nothing like the complex English language to help us all wade through our feelings and perceptions! Our own definitions, our own views, brought here, bring on other perceptions, beliefs, emotions, etc

You are soo intuitive, LeeAnn.... I often find that in life, we each go through certain experiences.... sometimes with aspects that are similar to others... and yet, each of us looks back on that experience and places it in a picture frame... a frame that defines how we view that experience..... and that frame is unique to each of us.

for me... my picture frame about my personal adoption experience has changed over the last 18 years.... I have looked at it differently at different times in my life... for many years it was the "I did what was best for my child, not for me" frame....

quite often it was the "that was the worst decision of my life" frame....

Just before I reunited with my daughter... it was probably more of a muddled frame... not clear... not easily defined....

now... in reunion.... my picture frame for that time is more like "I abandoned her"... and this is the fact for me that I have to come to terms with.

You see... no matter what other frames I view it from... the truth is, I held her... I loved her... I wanted to keep her... I let her go. I walked away. No.. I didn't dump her in the garbage can.... It was done lovingly and with tremendous heart ache... but it was done, none the less....

I have never stopped looking back... I have never stopped loving her.... I have never given up hope that I would someday again see her... that she did, INDEED, have a "better" life than I could have provided for her...

I like LeeAnn's use of the word "rescue"... I think that my frame could change to that.... that I could define that moment in my life as rescuing that precious baby from my own dysfunctional family and my emotionally bankrupt self....

The only problem I have with it.... I guess... is that a mere 4 years later my next daughter was born. I was NO more mature..... I was NO more CAPABLE of being a mother than 4 years earlier.... I was NO more STABLE.... I was perhaps even MORE emotionally unstable due to the loss of my first daughter.... I don't really see myself as being any different in spite of the extra 4 years.... I was no more educated.... I wasn't any more financially stable....

but I looked her in the eyes.... and I held her.... and I loved her... and I wanted to keep her... and I did.

I cannot say that I regret that choice.... I cannot say that this child should have been placed for adoption.... I cannot say that she would have been better off with adoptive parents and a different life.... all I can say... is I didn't let her go.... I didn't walk away from her... and she is a pretty decent kid.... we made it... we are okay today...

I think by framing that first choice in the "I abandoned her" frame.... I take out the "right or wrong" from the issue.... it simply becomes a fact.... this is what happened... according the strictest interpretation of the definition... you will note that the definition does NOT apply any negative connotation to "abandon"....

"2 : to disassociate oneself from or forsake in spite of a duty or responsibility to <abandon one's child>".

And for me.... in my frame.... it simply becomes an event... not right or wrong... not "the best decision"... or "a bad decision".... simply the choice I made.... I made a different choice with the next daughter.... I chose to raise her....

But this is my frame... for now, anyway... and it is the one I am comfortable with... and the one I can work with..... for now....

julie

[FL_GirlByProxy]

Hi Julie! I absolutely LOVE how you describe your thought process, and especially how you put the experience in a picture frame. This is just awesome, Julie. I have a few thoughts, they may seem challenging, forgive me. Please know, always know, that I respect your perspective, your journey, and your declaration of what you are comfortable with.

I can identify and see clearly your recognition of your "choice" as a matter of fact, an event that took place. I have a few questions though.

My next child, Eric, was born only 6 years after Jim was born. I often asked myself, when I was pregnant with Eric and many many years after, "How come I can do this now, but not before?" The answer was pretty simple. My family was overjoyed that my HUSBAND and I were expecting a child. We had their moral support. I did not have that during my first pregnancy, in fact, I had the total opposite. I had no moral support, no joy from family, only judgement and resentment. So I need to ask, and feel free not to answer if this is too personal, was there a difference for you also, with regard to moral support, and to joy and acceptance from your family too?

I like LeeAnn's use of the word "rescue"... I think that my frame could change to that.... that I could define that moment in my life as rescuing that precious baby from my own dysfunctional family and my emotionally bankrupt self....

Julie, your emotionally bankrupt self. How does a person become that way? Through experience and the interactions with those closest to her, IMO. I think you are weighing yourself down here. I don't think you were emotionally bankrupt. I think you were pressured and influenced and given no emotional support. I think you are describing yourself as emotionally bankrupt because of the fact that you did relinquish your birthdaughter, and for only that reason. Had things been different, had you been supported by your family (assumption of mine), I don't think you'd be describing yourself that way today.

all I can say... is I didn't let her go.... I didn't walk away from her... and she is a pretty decent kid.... we made it... we are okay today...

Again, I'm assuming that what you were up against as far as support from family was entirely different.

according the strictest interpretation of the definition... you will note that the definition does NOT apply any negative connotation to "abandon"....

Quote:
"2 : to disassociate oneself from or forsake in spite of a duty or responsibility to <abandon one's child>".

Again, Julie, I mean no disrespect. Just my opinion, this definition does apply a negative connotation to abandon with the phrase "in spite of duty or responsibility". That is what is striking a chord with many who do not view relinquishing their child as abandonment. When I signed the adoption papers for my birthson, it was not to shirk myself of duty or responsibility. Rather, it was my duty, my responsibility, to protect him from what I viewed was a damaging and harsh environment, one that would surely cause him emotional harm. You bet that still today I am extremely angry about the circumstances, but for me, those are the facts regarding my circumstances as I see them.

Julie, I think you are putting way too much of this on yourself. I don't know everything about what you went through, and I don't want to pressure you to share anything you are uncomfortable about. I do want you to know that I am listening to you, praying for you, for a sense of peace for you.

[julie23]

hi LeeAnn...

sometimes I think I write too much down... and it seems to be more complicated than it is....

I WAS an emotional wreck.... not only because of the situation... but because I grew up in an abusive home.

Second child was not necessarily met with joy.... I was pregnant prior to getting married... but did the "right" thing and married the father.... and the family was supportive.... not thrilled.... but supportive... and certainly embraced my daughter... divorced her dad 1 and a half years later.

When I say I wasn't any better off.... I MEAN it.... It wasn't any better.... my daughter barely knows her father.

sigh.... I think it is best to stop discussing this.... I see things how I see them.... I don't need to be convinced to see them any other way... I also do not feel sorry for myself because of how I view this experience... I do not condem myself.... I do not put too much on myself.... it is what it is....

LeeAnn.... it is not CLEAR to me that my choice was the BEST one.... I think, ultimately, that is my biggest issue.... I WISH it were CLEAR..... but it is not.

I love being prayed for.... keep it up!

j