[Lissa]

Originally Posted by pgruodis

IMHO Learning a language with your child gives very little Bang-for-your-Buck. You have to put so much into it, and you get so little out. Not to mention it isn't particularly fun past the most basic level.
Probably dozens of more fun things a family could do together to honor Chinese heritage.

Honestly Paul I am not learning the language as in depth as my husband and my daughter because it isn't fun for me and a lot of work. He and she however are having a blast and getting tons out of it. I really think it's a personality based thing. I tend to spend more time researching history and culture. I spend a lot of time organizing events and finding games and crafts to share with my child. That to me is fun because it's very theatrical and theatre is what I do for a living. Russ though is an introvert and an intellectual and language is something he adores. Chinese is becoming his fourth language along with English, German and Japanese. So for him this is a blast and Lydia is excited by his enthusiasm. I think it's just a personality based thing as to whether or not it's worth the time. Again what I think is most important is integrating our children as much as possible into Chinese American culture.

[Joliey]

The younger the child is, the easier it is for them to acquire languages. My daughter will be starting Mandarin classes with her cousin soon. It is not a useless interprise it is an asset. Culture will be very hard to give to our child as we are not Chinese, we will try but it will always be second best. However, her native tongue is a gift we can give. Our daughter already speaks English and Spanish. At this age it is really simple (DD is 3) the older they get, the harder it gets. Language is one of those things that if you leave it up to them to learn later, chances are, it might not happen. We are not taking the chance. However, what anyone wants to do with their children and whatever they value is up to them. I would not try to tell a parent what to do with their own kid.

[mdaisyq]

None of my kids have expressed a long term interest in learning the language of their birthculture.

One thing about learning "Chinese" is that the language they may be taught may not have been the language they were exposed to in China. Mandarin is the official language of China, but one of my kids is from a Cantonese speaking region. Should I have him take Cantonese or Mandarin lessons?

One of my kids is from an area in the province where the dialect is so distinct that even our guides from the capital of that province were unable to understand or speak to the older children adopted in our travel group. Should I have them take Mandarin lessons from someone who is from, say, Beijing, with their disntictive inflections?

[Lissa]

We chose Mandarin as it is the official language. Our daughter spent 10 of the first 12 months of her life in a Mandarin speaking area. She was found in a Cantonese speaking area, and her people's language is a Zhuang variation. If she has a desire to learn Cantonese we will do our best to facilitate this. As for Zhuang...we bought her a Zhuang dictionary but that is the least common of the languages she is likely to encounter.

[Joliey]

Same with our kids Lissa. My daughter is Mongolian and my son comes from a rural area in Shanxi. Both have dialects that are not spoken by the general population but since Mandarin is the official language, that is what they will be learning. Like I said, it is a gift and at this age, it so easy to learn many languages. Why not take advantage of it? So my little ones have absolutely no choice.

[pgruodis]

Originally Posted by Joliey

Same with our kids Lissa. My daughter is Mongolian and my son comes from a rural area in Shanxi. Both have dialects that are not spoken by the general population but since Mandarin is the official language, that is what they will be learning. Like I said, it is a gift and at this age, it so easy to learn many languages. Why not take advantage of it? So my little ones have absolutely no choice.

I think there has been a lot of oversimplification in this thread to how "easy" it is for a child to learn a 2nd language.
It is definitely easier ... but it is not easy.
A child immersed in a 2nd language probably would have an easier time with it ... but what people are discussing here is nowhere close to immersion.
Additionally, many children being adopted exhibit receptive & expressive language delays which would not only make the task of mastering a 2nd language difficult, but may also affect the mastery of their primary language of English.

[KarenInCa]

Paul-
I agree with you. Learning spanish is not the same as learning Chinese-at all. And although our daughter is absorbing spanish songs and words from preschool, and when we were in China, we spoke (maybe) 6-8 single words to her in Mandarin, and now she is learning some (very little) Mandarin from watching Ni Hao Kai Lan...It's not the same as immersion. I don't think it would be the same as desired outcome if we tried really hard to teach her the language either. Each word is so complex, and if I learn the pronounciation wrong, my daughter will also learn it wrong. And it could have potential to just sound like a made up language. It really isn't a language that can be compared to learning Spanish. Although, I do know they can absorb like a spunge. We still use some words in Chinese, but mainly to keep her interested, and feeling connected, not because we expect her to master the language.
Even if we were teaching it to her aggressively, unless it's a first language spoken in the home, Chinese is much more complex than what we could do.
Our daugther is from Anhui province, and depending on who I tell...my Chinese friends sometimes understand my pronounciation of it and sometimes do not. And that's just ONE word. And Im no novice when it comes to talking in a different language, so I understand that words need to be pronounced correctly. But Chinese is so complex that one tonal value off and you have said jibberish.
I would hate it if I tried to teach her Mandarin, and to Chinese people, she ended up sounding like what we hear sometimes when a foreigner tries to sing an American song, and gets the words completely wrong.
I'm still on the fence, as I can still see pros and cons to both scenarios of caucasion parents trying to teach immersion type of Chinese to their child. I'm not convinced it can work, but I'm also not convinced that the effort isn't worth the possible mistakes in trying.

[pgruodis]

I notice that many people stress Language as a way to honor/connect with Chinese heritage.
Many people find their Religion even more important than language as an expression of their "culture"... has anyone taken or looked into this rout?
I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems that Taoism & Buddhism can be practiced in conjunction to Christianity & Judaism, without the need of "conversion".

[Lissa]

Actually we did have Lydia blessed in a thousand year old Buddist Monastary while in China. We felt it was important to give her this "gift". In addition we honor several of the Zhuang religious holidays. She is learning about my faith (Christianity) and about Russell's belief's (Atheism) as well. We hope to teach her about as many world religions as we can.

Back to the language conversation, I agree if your child is having language delays you should maybe hold off on the introduction of an additional language. We did as Liddy was delayed. We worked very hard to catch her up...now that she is we are working towards her learning Mandarin. Again, it works for my family at this time and I know it doesn't work for everybody. If Lydia loses interest we won't force her. If she shows and extreme interest we'll definately encourage her to learn more.
As for pronunciation, there is Standard Mandarin, which is the pronunciation/tones that Lydia is learning. Just like our country China has many dialects. My neighbor and Russell's Laoshi barely understand each other though they both speak Mandarin. We thought we were mispronouncing stuff and in actuallity we were pronouncing it better than the locals because we were pronouncing it standardly. Kinda funny. :-)

[KarenInCa]

It's kind of funny, because my daughter (in the past couple of days) has asked how to say certain words-in Spanish or in Mandarin. Earlier today, she had on flip flops, and she said something difficult to understand, then she said that it means flip flops in Chinese. Sure enough, Kai Lan has introduced the word for Mandarin that means flip flops.
Another interesting note, the pronunciation of Chinese words seems to come very easy for Cady. DH and I believe it's because-even though she spoke very few words when she was adopted at 16.5 months old, she had heard the words spoken and sung to her. And she understood what she was being told. When we visited the SWI, her A-Yi talked to her a lot and she listened and did things that her A-yi told her, so we know she understood, even though she was too young to form sentences herself. Her brain was already programed to hear the correct pronunciation of Chinese words. It's possible that our children would be able to pick up other languages easier than other children, simply because their brains are already programed to understand the differences in languages.

I remember when you blogged about going to the Temple, Lissa. We also went to a Temple to have our daughter (our family) blessed. We are not Buddhist, but we felt that it was important to honor that part of her heritage for her. In our minds, receiving a blessing was the one thing that she could take with her form China.

[pgruodis]

Originally Posted by KarenInCa

It's possible that our children would be able to pick up other languages easier than other children, simply because their brains are already programed to understand the differences in languages.

It's believed that children are born receptive to hear and learn phonemes (smallest contrastive unit in the sound system of a language) of all languages, but as they mature the brain quickly narrows the set to mainly those heard around them for the sake of efficiency through the process of simple stimulation and social reinforcement.
This could possibly assist in learning the speech sounds of languages with the same phonemes.
OTOH language is not language specific, so the ability of a child to learn a 2nd language is more likely predicted by their ability to learn their primary language (English in this case).
So, in short, these children *might* be able to receptively pick up the sounds of Chinese quicker, but not that language, or any other language.
Note - even the ability to hear the phonemes will eventually drop-off without reinforcement (such as Chinese school) with time as the brain continues to limit itself.

[Joliey]

Originally Posted by pgruodis

I think there has been a lot of oversimplification in this thread to how "easy" it is for a child to learn a 2nd language.
It is definitely easier ... but it is not easy.
A child immersed in a 2nd language probably would have an easier time with it ... but what people are discussing here is nowhere close to immersion.
Additionally, many children being adopted exhibit receptive & expressive language delays which would not only make the task of mastering a 2nd language difficult, but may also affect the mastery of their primary language of English.

There are several families with children speaking Mandarin here in Florida. It does not affect the mastery of English. Sorry you are dead wrong on this, and like I said, up to the parent to take advantage of this or not. You choose not to and that is OK, I choose to and that is OK too. Just don't start saying that children can't learn different languages because it conflicts with the primary language.

By the way Karen, Spanish or English to someone speaking Mandarin seems like a world away, yet many master it in their own country. It is not a hard task for a child. At an early age, language acquisition comes easily.

[pgruodis]

Originally Posted by Joliey

There are several families with children speaking Mandarin here in Florida. It does not affect the mastery of English. Sorry you are dead wrong on this, and like I said, up to the parent to take advantage of this or not. You choose not to and that is OK, I choose to and that is OK too. Just don't start saying that children can't learn different languages because it conflicts with the primary language.

By the way Karen, Spanish or English to someone speaking Mandarin seems like a world away, yet many master it in their own country. It is not a hard task for a child. At an early age, language acquisition comes easily.

You may want to reread what I wrote, because that is clearly not what I said.
I am Speech & Language Pathologist in a large metropolitan city with over 15 years experience working in multiethnic schools dealing with language processing disorders. I was attempting to correct your generalizations, and point out some things adoptive parents should take into consideration.

[Joliey]

Originally Posted by pgruodis

You may want to reread what I wrote, because that is clearly not what I said.
I am Speech & Language Pathologist in a large metropolitan city with over 15 years experience working in multiethnic schools dealing with language processing disorders. I was attempting to correct your generalizations, and point out some things adoptive parents should take into consideration.

Then there is no need, we are even, you corrected my generalizations and I corrected yours. Exactly my point.

[pgruodis]

Originally Posted by Joliey

Then there is no need, we are even, you corrected my generalizations and I corrected yours. Exactly my point.

... OK