[TaraL]

[quote=NaturalizedCT]Some have argued that the reason domestic adoption is so expensive is because of the international demand for healthy babies. The $3000 paid to orphanages is a lot of money in China and most locals don't have that kind of money.
QUOTE]

That is a very good point!

[MissyAmomChina]

Hi,

I can say that while the Chinese government is reporting there are less available healthy children to be adopted--there are glimpses that indicate that may not be true. (Yet I readily admit that since the number of orphanages, number of abandoments etc is something China never discloses with anyone). I know of charitable organizations that are seeing as many children as there have been in the past. I know our daughter's SWI recently moved to a larger facility due to increased number of children (NSN children). I know our agency director was recently at an SWI where there were over 90 toddlers/babies who were NSN--and that SWI was submitting 3 children's paperwork to the CCAA.

With mortality rates still high in SWI's, I find the concept of a government "with the best interest of the children" a bit difficult to believe. I personally feel that China has agreed to release x number of children per year for international adoption--and even if the demand triples, they choose to release the same number of children. Ultimately, that's their right to do so. However, like many of us here, as a parent to a beautiful child from China and connecting with so many families like ours---it's heartbreaking to know children are not going to be able to have families when so many homes are waiting for them.

I can't say I've followed the posts about saying negative thing about the Chinese government vs. the people super closely. However, I do think one can respect a culture, history and people and not think very much of their government. In fact, I can say I have similiar feelings about our own country.

Take care,
Melissa

[Synesthesia]

I do love my country, but I cannot say I love everything about it. And I do not trust or like most governments.
Still, I just want things to be better. I'm secretly hoping that by the time I'm mature enough to adopt from China, there won't be a need to, but I doubt this will happen : o(

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by MissyAmomChina

Hi,

I can say that while the Chinese government is reporting there are less available healthy children to be adopted--there are glimpses that indicate that may not be true. (Yet I readily admit that since the number of orphanages, number of abandoments etc is something China never discloses with anyone). I know of charitable organizations that are seeing as many children as there have been in the past. I know our daughter's SWI recently moved to a larger facility due to increased number of children (NSN children). I know our agency director was recently at an SWI where there were over 90 toddlers/babies who were NSN--and that SWI was submitting 3 children's paperwork to the CCAA.

Are you familar with the child trafficking scandal in the Hunan Province. If SWIs are buying children on the black market, it would seem to suggest a shortage.

A large number of children at an SWI could simply mean that they are waiting on paperwork. Some of those 90 children could be getting adopted domestically.OTOH if they were adopted internationally the SWI would be about $270,000 better off.

[KarenInCa]

The trafficking is no longer in the present tense. It was exposed in 2005, and no longer takes place. It involved approximately 900 babies (all total). To put this into perspective, according to the US Consulate in China, in 2005 alone, Guangzhou's ACIVU processed 7906 visas for adopted orphans from China.
In addition, it's believed that the the majority of the infants that were involved in the Hunan incidents, were from birth parents selling their babies to the traffickers instead of abandoning them. As far as I know, it was not due to a shortage of children. The preceived reason for the handfull of SWIs purchasing the babies was for quick profit, because most potential parents request AYAP, and the children being sold to the traffickers were infants.

[MissyAmomChina]

Hi,

Yes I'm very familiar with the 2 infant smuggling incidents that hit the press. The one in Hunan and the one in Guangxi. (The one in Guangxi was not about children going to SWI's) My daughter is from Guangxi and 2 of my dear DTC friends have daughters from the Hunan orphanage in question (in the time which things could have been questionable). So, they were greatly impacted by the news

I do not think these two incidents suggest a shortage of infants--in fact they both took place during the timeline when things were speeding up/at the 6 month time of referral

All I'm saying is that even if 2 great things are happening (number of abandoments are down, number of domestic adoptions are up)---I still don't believe that there is a shortage of children available. The approximately 10,000 a year children adopted internationally is realistically a drop in the bucket. Again, no one knows (except the Chinese government) how many children are abandoned and how many orphanages there are. However, people do know that not all orphanages are open to international adoption (estimations vary--some say it's very small percentage that participate in international adoption).

I do not believe for a minute that there aren't enough children to meet the domestic adoption demand (which should take priority) and the international adopton demand. I simply believe that China has decided they will allow x number of children to be adopted internationally and even with an increased demand, they don't choose to change that number. Again, that's their perogative---but it's still pretty lousy to think of the children left behind without families.

Take care,
Melissa

[BrandyHagz]

Reposting here what I posted on another thread:


Adoption.com does not condone, endorse or allow the discussion of the falsification of information required to complete your adoption, nor does adoption.com allow the discussion of ways to circumvent the processes required to adopt, as that is a discussion of ways to violate the law, which is outlined in our Terms of Service.

Understand, if you chose to not disclose this information and it is found out later, by a caseworker, who is morally obligated to disclose required information in your homestudy, as outlined by country requirements, you stand a chance of not only NOT being able to adopt from China, but also, not being able to adopt at all…most caseworkers will refuse to work with a client who knowingly and willingly withheld required information, especially when asked point blank.

The rule of thumb is, if your history keeps you from qualifying for a program, then you need to explore other programs, where your history will not be an issue.

From this point forward, discussing ways you can lie or omit facts will be deleted and the member banned, as Adoption.com does not allow the discussion of illegal activities and doing so violates the rules/laws China has or soon will have for their adoption program.

Feel free to continue to discuss the changes, what they involve and fast tracking your dossier – but please, do not discuss ways to lie to the Chinese Government in order to adopt a child.

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by KarenInCa

The trafficking is no longer in the present tense. It was exposed in 2005, and no longer takes place. It involved approximately 900 babies (all total). To put this into perspective, according to the US Consulate in China, in 2005 alone, Guangzhou's ACIVU processed 7906 visas for adopted orphans from China.
In addition, it's believed that the the majority of the infants that were involved in the Hunan incidents, were from birth parents selling their babies to the traffickers instead of abandoning them. As far as I know, it was not due to a shortage of children. The preceived reason for the handfull of SWIs purchasing the babies was for quick profit, because most potential parents request AYAP, and the children being sold to the traffickers were infants.

China is a big country. It is impossible to know if trafficking is still occurring. The only reason I can think of for an SWI to purchase a child is a shortage of children available for IA. Why would an SWI director pay for babies if he already had an orphanage full of them.

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by NaturalizedCT

China is a big country. It is impossible to know if trafficking is still occurring. The only reason I can think of for an SWI to purchase a child is a shortage of children available for IA. Why would an SWI director pay for babies if he already had an orphanage full of them.

To save lives. My daughter lived...she almost didn't from her abandonment. Many children do not survive the ordeal. If a child who is going to be left is brought immediately to the SWI his/her chances of survival greatly increase. That is the documented defense of at least one of the traffikers and SWI director's who were imprisoned. Having met some orphange directors...knowing how much they love the children...I believe that defense.

Now, I also agree there are less children too. I am not saying there are more. I trust China. I believe in her goodness. I am saddened by the rules, but I stick by China's right to make them and enforce them. If DH and I decide to adopt a second, s/he will be from another country who allowes diabetics and high BMI.

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by Lissa

To save lives. My daughter lived...she almost didn't from her abandonment. Many children do not survive the ordeal. If a child who is going to be left is brought immediately to the SWI his/her chances of survival greatly increase. That is the documented defense of at least one of the traffikers and SWI director's who were imprisoned. Having met some orphange directors...knowing how much they love the children...I believe that defense.

Since he was imprisoned, I am assuming the court did not believe his defense.

I agree that China has the right to enforce their own rules. They are a sovereign government. Unlike you though I am not sure I believe in the "Goodness" of the Chinese government (I certainly don't believe in the "Goodness" of our own government). I do however beleive them when they claim a supply/demand imbalance for IA.

[Synesthesia]

I doubt the goodness of any government, but it seems that the CCAA, from what I have read, puts a lot of thought into placing these children.
I'm hoping that more orphanages become open to adoption, domestic and internation.

[KarenInCa]

It really gets under my skin to read statements tossed around like "supply/demand" when it comes to children. These are not dolls being produced in a factory for us to buy, China is certainly not producing children for profit, and it's offensive to see it written in that manner. I'm sure you do not mean to be offensive, but it sounds so brazen.