[SofiasMom]

I wish that CCAA or some of the bigger adoption agencies would do outreach programs to those orphanages not participating in foreign adoptions. Why aren't they participating? If it's due to financial issues, that would easy be fixed by donations from people like me. If the non-participating orphanages are concerned about foreigners adopting Chinese children and taking them away from their culture, that's also understandable and the domestic adoption program should be developed. I'm sure there's lots of other solutions to the problem of less "paper ready" babies and too many foreign families wanting to adopt - I hope China explores other solutions besides the restrictions.

As a single mother, I'm so sorry to read this. My daughter is the light of my life.

[calikismet]

Jumping in from the Russia board...

I have followed many friends' journeys as they adopted their daughters from China, and still follow a few blogs regularly. I truly am saddened by this news, and feel so badly for anyone who may be knocked out in May.

However, the point of my post relates to net assets..


I have been thinking a lot about this, and you know, these new rules, ironically, may wind up eliminating highly-educated parents from adopting... specifically, those with large amounts of student debt, related to higher education. It is not uncommon to see doctors, lawyers, PhD holders, even holders of masters degrees, etc from having more than $100K in student debt... the rates are very low and the payments affordable, but the actual debt is fairly steep... So unless someone has been out of school for many many years, and has been able to rebuild assets (home, which is usually the largest asset), anyone with advanced degrees that were financed through student loans woud be out.. I find that very interesting, since I assume that China would favor education!

[KarenInCa]

SofiasMom, I really don't think that China's biggest concern is getting most children paper ready and adoptable. I think they want to keep many of them in China, and if it means raising them in orphanages, then that's what happens. I think they want to release some of them for population reasons, but they do not want to cause more problems by lowering the ratio of boys to girls too low for the future.

[KarenInCa]

calikismet-
Both DH and I still have school loan debt, but we were told that didn't matter when it came to debt/income and assets. Perhaps now that will change, but I don't see it changing with the rest of the changes.

[SofiasMom]

Karen, the number of girls being adopted is a drop in the bucket compared to the population 1.3 billion. But you're probably right in that China isn't concerned with those orphanages out of sight (out of mind).

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by KarenInCa

You may not agree with the rules, but we don't make the rules. If we cannot respect the guidelines, why adopt from the very country setting them??

Probably because the adoptive parents want a Chinese infant girl. I doubt anyone is adopting from China out of a deep respect for the Chinese government.

I am guessing that a lot of applicants are not going to mention their use of anti-depressants. I am not sure what percentage of infertile women in the U have used them but I am sure it is significant.

[KarenInCa]

It seems to be an oxymoron to say that someone specifically wants a Chinese girl, but in the same breath says that they doubt that anyone does (or should) respect the governing forces for adoption, in this case, the CCAA; which represents the children in China, placed for international adoptions.
I may not agree with some things, but I do have respect for China. That is where my daughter is from.
Would I be wrong if I hid facts about schizophrenia or child abuse in order to adopt? What if my BMI was 60 and I had major health issues because of it? Not that everyone with BMI of 60 has major health issues, but suppose I did? Would it be right for me to white-out what the doctor states is my real weight, and write in my own? Or is that too far out of line? Where is the line drawn?
I know that some people think it's unfair for them personally, that there are new regulations. But, if the rules only apply to some and not others, then where is the justice in that?

[mdaisyq]

[quote=SofiasMom]I wish that CCAA or some of the bigger adoption agencies would do outreach programs to those orphanages not participating in foreign adoptions. Why aren't they participating?

We adopted our youngest in July of this year and we were the first international family to adopt from his orphanage. Why? because all of the healthy children were adopted domestically within 1-2 months of being brought to the orphanage. There were 5 children left in his orphanage - 1 infant had leukemia, and the remaining 4 were older boys(aged 4-8?) who were described as mentally disabled, though one may have only had CP (he was in a walker).

We are so grateful that his orphanage somehow found the money to get our son paper ready to be adopted internationally. They were a very poor orphanage with barely enough money to buy food for the kids, and yet the orphanage director managed to figure out all the necessary paperwork required by the CCAA and then get the money to get it done.

[MissyAmomChina]

Hi all,

Well, I just read the new rules by the CCAA. I believe we will also be knocked out the program. In the list of conditions no longer accepted is monocular blindess.

I'm blind in my left eye. So, unless there's an interpretation that I don't know of (and I will contact my agency for additional information), I believe we are not elligible.

I find it funny my vision would be the reason the door closed. My vision has no impact on me--none--no working, living or driving restrictions. The only thing I can't do is become a pilot.

I do feel lucky because if China says no, I can make peace with my monocular self. I've always been open to other countries and I think welcoming an additional child and culture into our family could be very exciting.

For all of those who are also finding the door closed, my heart is with you. I think that the rules are effective (they sure will reduce the applicants by over 50%). I also think that they are lousy rules--and ultimately hurt a lot of children. While the number of children that are being abandonned may down & the number of domestic adoptions are up (both great things)---I don't believe for a second that there are not enough children available. So, it is a haunting thought to think of children in orphanages, families here waiting--and a government unwilling to unite them.


Take care,
Melissa

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by KarenInCa

It seems to be an oxymoron to say that someone specifically wants a Chinese girl, but in the same breath says that they doubt that anyone does (or should) respect the governing forces for adoption, in this case, the CCAA; which represents the children in China, placed for international adoptions.
I may not agree with some things, but I do have respect for China. That is where my daughter is from.
Would I be wrong if I hid facts about schizophrenia or child abuse in order to adopt? What if my BMI was 60 and I had major health issues because of it? Not that everyone with BMI of 60 has major health issues, but suppose I did? Would it be right for me to white-out what the doctor states is my real weight, and write in my own? Or is that too far out of line? Where is the line drawn?
I know that some people think it's unfair for them personally, that there are new regulations. But, if the rules only apply to some and not others, then where is the justice in that?

A government and its people are two different things particularly when the government is unelected. Even our current democratically elected president is not representative of the views of the majority. The PRC doesn't even govern the whole of China (ever heard of Taiwan).

I am not sure what justice has to do about any of this. If someone feels rules are unfairly discriminating against them and also feels those rules are easy to circumvent, that is probably what they will do. We aren't all Girl/Boy scouts.

I imagine that a high BMI would be hard to conceal as would not having enough money (though that could be fudged). A history of child abuse would be impossible to conceal as would a history of any criminal activity.

A women who fro example took a few pills while coming to terms with infertilty OTOH, that seems easy enough to conceal. Just don't mention it and find a doctor who doesn't know you took the meds.

Given how common casual use of these meds is in the U.S. and given the emotional stress of infertility (the leading motivator for adoption), it is probable that a large percentage of women who have already adopted from China, have taken them. It is possible that future applicants will just give up but more likely that many will
'forget' to mention it and other will avoid treatment if they are thinking of China.

[TaraL]

So many people want to romantize the Chinese government and their feeling about their children. Lets face it, if there was such a concern about the children the government would not have established a one child policy. There are numerous things they could have done to ensure that girls were wanted by families. China is a communist country and their citizens follow this because that is all they know and what they must do.

I truly believe that China put these new regulations into affect for 2 reasons. First, the Olympics are coming. They certainly don't want to look like the country full of orphans to the rest of the world. This way they appear that that child abandonment is significantly reduced and that they want to keep their children. Second, its a matter of looking good to the world regardless of the Olypmics. China is very concerned about how they look. International adoption from there is huge now and although we may be happy at the opportunities they are not because of how it makes them look. Trust me when I say that it is not for the children's good.

Domestic adoption is very expensive in China and very hard for the average citizen to afford. If they wanted to increase it they would make it more cost affective. But they aren't going to let the rest of the world know that.

Lastly, if China were so worried about their children they would have made great strides to have more than 1/3 of all orphanages participate in international adoption so more children could have families. As hard as it is to believe, there are tens of thousands of children who are going to live their childhood out in an orphanage, never have a family and then move to living on the streets. China is a huge expanding country financially and they continue not to give the proper resources to orphanages. Children die all the time in them. That is not caring about the children.

I do want to say that my anger is with the Chinese government and not the citizens of the country. I have great respect for them and their culture. I want my daughter to be proud to be Chinese. I am proud to be an American and 99% of the time I am not proud of my government either.

[Synesthesia]

Originally Posted by TaraL

I truly believe that China put these new regulations into affect for 2 reasons. First, the Olympics are coming. They certainly don't want to look like the country full of orphans to the rest of the world. This way they appear that that child abandonment is significantly reduced and that they want to keep their children. Second, its a matter of looking good to the world regardless of the Olypmics. China is very concerned about how they look. International adoption from there is huge now and although we may be happy at the opportunities they are not because of how it makes them look. Trust me when I say that it is not for the children's good.

I thought I was the only person thinking that!
I just didn't want to mention it... You make some good points, I hope that after the Olympics, when I'm old enough to adopt the rules will become less strict and more orphanages will be open for adoption because I read there's really not a lot of orphanages opened for international adoption and it makes me worry about those that aren't.

[KarenInCa]

Andrew-
I got the strong feeling while we were in China, that they do not seperate themselves from their country very easily. So, if we were to tell that Chinese citizen that I respect him but not his country, he would not understand the concept.
Taiwan, although a part of China, does not see itself as China in the literal sense. And Taiwan is now also open for IA, under its own set of guidelines.
The generalizations that I made were not to be taken literally, they were generalizations, assuming that someone could actually "erase" the truth. They were "What if's".
I, quite honestly, do not think that it is "common" for someone to have casual use of anti-depressants. I do, however, think that doctors in the US prescribe anti-depressants too readily, and that could be of no fault to the patient who trusts their doctor's advise. And unfortunately, there will be people that are no longer qualified to adopt from China because of that.

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by KarenInCa

Andrew-
I, quite honestly, do not think that it is "common" for someone to have casual use of anti-depressants. I do, however, think that doctors in the US prescribe anti-depressants too readily, and that could be of no fault to the patient who trusts their doctor's advise. And unfortunately, there will be people that are no longer qualified to adopt from China because of that.

I believe (though I don't have numbers to back it up) that the majority of couples adopting are probably doing so because of infertility. Every women who finds out she is infertile is going to be at least somewhat depressed about it. Given how readily doctors do prescribe anti-depressants it seems likely to me that a significant number of U.S. women who are adopting from China have taken anti-depressants. It appears that these women will no longer be qualified to adopt from China.

These women will have two options. The first is to fess up and find another country. The second option is to just forget they ever took anti-depressants. Given HIPA privacy laws and the lack of centralized medical records it is hard for me to see how their "little white lie" would be discovered. I suspect that a lot of women will go with the second option. They are unlikely to be receptive to any moral arguments.

[NaturalizedCT]

Originally Posted by TaraL

Domestic adoption is very expensive in China and very hard for the average citizen to afford. If they wanted to increase it they would make it more cost affective. But they aren't going to let the rest of the world know that.

Some have argued that the reason domestic adoption is so expensive is because of the international demand for healthy babies. The $3000 paid to orphanages is a lot of money in China and most locals don't have that kind of money.

There have apparantly been cases of orphanages buying children to supply their IA program. This would suggest to me that there is a shortage of healthy babies available for adoption. The high cost of domestic adoption also supports this view.

If there is in fact a shortage, it would suggest that these new rules will not result in any healthly children remaining in orphanages. It would also suggest that the chinese wish to reduce demand to bring it in line with supply.