[erinp]

I can definitely see your point, Karen. Lucky for China, they're in a position where they can be super picky.

I pray that we won't be affected, however we do have some gray areas that we'll have to confirm with our agency about. I definitely don't plan on lying - sounds like seriously bad karma to me. I'll be even more upset if the new rules affect us negatively. I think about all the people we've told, the caps with "daddy" stitched on them in Chinese that I've bought for gifts, the mandarin storybook that is on order for our future daughter, the additional stocking we hung over the fireplace. To think about having to say, "Oops sorry... never mind" devastates me to the point of tears. There are many many dreams being broken for sure.

At the same time, I try to think of China as one great big birth mom to thousands of new babies. If I were that big birth mom, I would try to shelter my children from anything that MIGHT cause them angst in any way. I would make all kinds of irrational stereotypes and judge others unfairly... simply out of fear and protection for my own - especially knowing there were hoards of people to interview and I had no idea of knowing that person's true character. I would prefer the rich over the poor. I would want college-educated over non. The parents would be young, without kids and financially able to spoil my baby without a care in the world!

The part that frustrates me over anything though is the thought of these babies spending an entire year of their lives in an institution when they could be in a warm home with mommies and daddies to hold them. I still can't grasp the why's of that. It just takes SO long for seemingly NO reason!!!

[pgruodis]

Karen, I said nothing of the sort...please reread.
What I said was that I do not agree with your Cultural Relativism - (principle that an individual human's beliefs and activities should be interpreted in terms of his or her own culture)
"CCAA does not allow gay couples to adopt from China. Right or wrong, it is the rule...They are not rules that are set to upset us, they are rules that are set because those in charge in China BELIEVE that they are worth having. "
You go on to ask "If we cannot respect the guidelines, why adopt from the very country setting them?? "
I'm sure you already know that a person's choice of why & where they adopt from is a far more complicated decision than "guidelines"
Finally you say "But I have seen some that knowingly and willingly thumb their noses at China's requests. People before us (and probably now) have publicly gone around these rules"
Would you ever impose such a black&white adherence to other situations? Human rights organizations bend & break rules that they find morally unacceptable all the time. Every time I sent a package of medication to my family in the "old country" I broke rules. People don't only go around rules for convenience sake.
My wife & I fortunately still qualify under the new rules, but I am truly saddened for those who found the updated information life-changing. I found your "Rules-is-Rules" post added salt-on-wounds, and had to respond. I am glad you were able to complete your adoption, and have the ability to conform to any new rules...but others cannot. Your post came off as gloating to me.
If you would like to continue this conversation privately, please PM me.

[KarenInCa]

pgruodis-you attack my character, and in the same post, suggest that respond to you in IM.
This subject really has nothing to do with "Human rights", and from any guidelines that I've seen imposed by any country for adoption, I've never seen any that are "morally unacceptable", including China's. So, your analogy between adoption guidelines and human rights activism is off base. And yes, regardless of my own feelings or thoughts, I think it is important that we follow the guidelines set forth by any adopting institution. In fact, I think it is "morally unacceptable" to sneak around the guidelines, and it's very possible that the theory that 'the rules apply to everyone but me' is partially what prompted China to set new guidelines in the first place.

[pgruodis]

Karen, I'm sorry you don't see my point, or why I felt your post had poor timing.
I checked-out your blog and your video ...both were very touching...it brought tears to me and my wife's eyes.
We hope to replicate some of those same experiences this year. At the same time, I am very saddened for those who just found out that this will no longer be achievable.

[kcpetty]

It's a tough road, adoption. And living with cancer is also a tough road and as someone who knows firsthand what this devastation is like, I would just like to say that I'm sure it is hard to understand the whys of those of us who choose the path we do to form our families. Just as I cannot relate to someone with diabetes or mental illness, I want to add that all is not as black and white as it may seem when it comes to living with a diagnosis that China (or any other country) deems inappropriate. In my deepest of hearts, I know that our family was formed just as everyone else's is: out of pure, unadulterated love.

Thank you for listening.

[BrandyHagz]

Just a reminder to those participating - please be respectful of each other. You don't have to agree with each other but you do have to be kind in your responses, should you chose to disagree or debate each other on the forums.

This isn't directed at any ONE member - this is a general reminder to everyone, because this is a very emotional topic and those posting (and reading) all have VERY strong feelings regarding the news.

Please just be kind to each other...

[mommy2B2Nina]

I was on Zoloft for the past year (up until two weeks ago) to deal with my mother's dx with breast cancer. It was for anxiety/depression. I hope this doesn't set us back. We have been married (first for both) for almost 6 years, have 2 bio children and are 31 and 34, and make enough $. Now I'm concerned about the "mental health" issue here.......

I don't mind the wait - it is all worth it, but I don't want to be shut out b/c I was having a hard time dealing with possibly losing my mother! BTW she's doing GREAT!

Any thoughts????

[Petsitter]

We, too will be knocked out of the China program with these new rules. I am thrilled that we got in for Aiden, but sad that we will be unable to bring home a daughter from China. My husband says that we may have to look in to a different country, but I have always felt that ALL of my children were in China.

[sak9645]

It is POSSIBLE that the U.S. ratification of the Hague, which is tentatively slated for 2007, could open up some countries, particularly in Latin America, to U.S. families. Most countries that have ratified the Hague will place children only or primarily with families in other Hague ratifying countries.

Sharon

[KarenInCa]

It would be interesting to find out if China will make any exceptions for those with children adopted from China already. It seems that it would be in the interest of the first child to have a sibling also from China.
pgruodis- Thank you for your response. I appreciate it. I also think my words could have been less defensive. I have always hated the unknowingness that adoption sometimes places on us.

[TaraL]

I know that my thoughts are going to be completely un-PC however I have to say them. I don't believe, even for a minute, that these new rules are being made in the best interest of the children. If China was so concerned for their children there wouldn't be tens of thousands of children in orphanages. There wouldn't be a problem with child abandonment (and even worse). The problem was initally created by the country itself or at least some government officials who ran the country.

Secondly, if there was such a concern for the children then why are there only 1/3 of orphanages in China participating in international adoption? Its not that the others are extremely active in domestic adoption as that is near impossible for most couples in China.

Lastly, this is a communist country. Plain and simple. They can make up any rules they want and want the control. I think the new rules have alot to do with that. These rules will probably change again and be replaced with new ones--because they can.

I know I sound bitter however I think of all the children in that country who go to bed at night crying and not conforted or so alone and I think of all the people in this country who have so much love to give them, and, well, it just angers me so much. Plus, I find it hard, as a free American, to deal with communism. I love the people of China (obviously or I wouldn't have adopted from there) and don't blame them for a minute. But I have to say that I do have alot of emotions when it comes to their government. Everytime I look at my daughter I think about what could have been for her had she not had the opportunity to be adopted and spend out her childhood in an orphanage. It angers me. It also angers me that dh and I want to bring another child home and give her everything in the world that we could possibly give and we may not because my BMI might be higher than what a country has deemed as the appropriate number to be a good parent.

Just my thoughts.

[Lissa]

Tara, I understand your anger and frustration but the one child policy while it seems horrible has actually saved lives. It has cut down their population and less people die of starvation in China today than ever before. As for what is best for the children...well yes it would be best for all the children to have homes, but there is a push for those homes to be Chinese homes. There is a gender imbalance that is increasing in China at an alarming rate. They must keep their girls in order to save their country. I am saddened by the choice China has made, but I hope for China and her children only the best.

[specialk4b]

Based on nothing but personal opinion, I think the new rules are in response to the overwhelming number of dossiers received by China. At the current rate the wait seems destined to climb continually. They want to bring down the number of dossiers and they've done it by ruling only allowing those they feel are most deserving.

I don't really agree with some of their new rules, but there were old rules that were also kinda subjective. Who says that parents under age 30 are less fit than those 30 years old? I know lots of great parents in their 20s.

[SAVeronika]

Originally Posted by b&k898

Who says that parents under age 30 are less fit than those 30 years old? I know lots of great parents in their 20s.

I read somewhere (I think on one of these boards) that Chinese parents are not allowed to have kids before they turn 30 and will be fined or prosecuted if it does happen. People who do get pregnant in their 20s routinely abandon the babies to avoid being punished. I don't know if it is true, but that is what I read. If they have that law for their own people, it would explain why they apply it to adoptive parents too. I myself am a mother of two and I'm 27 now. Being 30 would not have made me a better mother to my kids.

Veronika

[Kara_P 13]

I haven't posted in over two years, but I felt compelled to post on this. Friday afternoon had me in quite a tizzy with the new regulations coming out. My husband and I mailed our application tuesday to start the process for our second adoption. Then this comes out friday. The only thing that could have stopped us was the net assets. We are clear by a whopping $1700. A big sigh of relief for me, but I know others are not so fortunate and that is sad.

Adoption forums are there for us to grieve or vent or celebrate. Please allow those who want to vent the right to do so, without all the self-righteous BS. I am sure we have all left little tidbits our regarding our lives that may not have been so favorable during the home study process. Rules are rules, yes, but at the same time. What if you have a net asset of 78,000 wouldn't you fudge a little?? Why am I more deserving at $1700 plus than I would be at $1700 deficient. I am still the same person, as is my husband. I waited 11 yrs for my daughter, I wouldn't changed any bit of it.

Karen, I understand your opinion, but at the same time, were you lilly white growing up and have never made a mistake in your life.

KP
DH Mitch
DD Mae-Lei
Paperchasing for #2