[Guatmom2006]

Hi all,

I'm popping over from the Guatemala board. We should get the call to go pick up our son anytime...God willing. I'm very active on that board and know there is a wealth of knowledge and that's why I'm here...hoping to pick your brains!

Tell me where the headaches are (if it's like Guat, they're all the way through!). I know referral waits are getting longer, which is okay, because if we decide we're jumping in again, we won't even begin to get our dossier together until this summer, and it will give us more time to financially recover from this adoption. I've heard the total cost usually is between 17-20K including travel. Is that close? I've also heard that the cost is more spread out. The money comes due at different stages. True or False? Guatemala's rough...BAM...you have to turn over 20 grand.

What do you know now that you wish you'd known before you started?

I appreciate any input you can give me! Thanks!

[ladybug11]

Congrats on your son; he's gorgeous!!! I'm sure you are out of your mind ready to go get him!!!

I'm no expert by far...but I'll share my experience thus far!

No real headaches aside from the paperchase which you've already done! Waits are definitely increasing - which for you may be fine, but for some of us it isn't so fine LOL! But, so far, for us everything has been as expected. The program is tried and tested and so you know what to expect. I've been reading boards and blogs for months now and haven't heard of any major hurdles concerning the China program - just that the wait times are getting excruciatingly long.

There are many here, though, who know much more than I do - especially those who have BTDT already!

Your estimation of the costs are pretty on...and yes, it is definitely more spread out! There have been no surprises, so I think that I was well informed when we started...we'll see though ;o)!!!

Best of luck with everything!

[Happy2Bhere]

HI!
We just sent our Dossier to China on October 5, we don't even have a log in date. We are preparing ourselves for a 2 year wait in bringing our daughter home.
As for cost- we paid $8600 total, agency & all other fees, in order to get our dossier to China. Our agency guestimated $17,500 for a total price.
Congrats on getting your son- hope it's quick & easy for you.
With the wait times, get logged in to China as soon as possible, then enjoy your son! That way the kids will be close in age!
Best wishes-
MElissa

[Lissa]

Tell me where the headaches are (if it's like Guat, they're all the way through!).
That's a really tough one to answer because different people have different kids of rough spots. Honestly overall China was smooth. I had a glitch with my medical, but that was an anomoly not at all normal, some people have problems with their I-171 form--we had none. Some hate the paperchase. I loved it. Some hate the wait--didn't mind it. Some have travel problems (we did big time--but again we just got unlucky on that one.) But really it wasn't bad at all.

I know referral waits are getting longer
They are, but it tends to go in waves. I suspect it will shorten again and finally balance out.

I've heard the total cost usually is between 17-20K including travel. Is that close?
As travel times increase so does expense as you have to have documents updated...so that's about what I paid. I suspect those with 14 month or longer waits will pay closer to $22K

I've also heard that the cost is more spread out. The money comes due at different stages. True or False?
True that.

What do you know now that you wish you'd known before you started?
I would not use Delight Travel for our travel agent as they messed up our reservations and 30 hours before we were suppossed to leave we had no tickets! We were terrified we were going to lose Lydia!!! Also I would have tried to time it so we didn't travel in October or April as we got really shafted in our experience since we went at Trade Fair time. It's almost impossible to figure that one out though as wait times fluctuate.

Hope this helps. My daughter is beautiful, intelligent, charasmatic and extremely loving. Going to China was the best thing I've ever done!!

[Guatmom2006]

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate you taking the time and I wish you all the best of luck.

[sak9645]

The nice part about China adoption is that the process is very predictable, and doesn't depend on the agency that you choose.

The process is very different from Guatemala's. First off, with Guatemala, some families get referrals before they ever submit a dossier. Then, they wait for their dossier to wend its way through the approval process in Guatemala. They may have the referrals for several months or even a year or more, before they bring their children home. This does not happen with China, unless you choose to go through the Waiting Child program (older kids and those with special needs).

With China's regular adoption program, you will complete a homestudy, get your USCIS clearance, and put together a dossier. Only then will everything be sent to China, where it is logged in and put into a queue. And you won't get a referral from the China Center for Adoption Affairs (which MUST make all the referrals) until all the dossiers submitted to China before yours, from agencies all over the world, are matched with children. The CCAA tends to go in strict chronological order. So you actually get your referral very late in the process -- nowadays, about 14 months after your dossier is logged in. Once you accept your referral, you travel about six weeks later to complete your adoption and bring your child home.

Personally, I like the Chinese system better. Once you have a referral picture hanging on your refrigerator, you really want to go get your child. Even the six week wait to travel seems horrendously long. I'd hate to have a referral for several months, and not be able to travel.

Second, you don't have to wait for a child of the right age or gender to be born, and you don't have to wait for a birthmother to sign relinquishment papers. Virtually all of the children referred to foreigners are abandoned; very rarely, there are true orphans whose parents are deceased. All have been living in an orphanage or a foster home associated with an orphanage.

The orphanage cannot send an abandoned child's paperwork to Beijing for matching until a three month birthparent search, including "finding ads" in the newspaper, is unsuccessful. Once Beijing has a child's dossier, that child is considered legally free for adoption. And once the child is referred, a family will generally lose that referral only if the child is adopted domestically (rare), passes away, or is found to be too ill to adopt.

Personally, I prefer the Chinese system. I have seen so many Guatemala parents lose referrals because the birthmother decides to parent (although that is often a positive thing, in that the child can stay with his/her birth family), because the birthmother fails to show up for DNA testing or for the four required signings of relinquishment paperwork, because the DNA testing of baby and supposed birthmother comes back showing no match, etc.

Third, with Guatemala, the adoption can wind up being finalized before you ever meet the child. It is true that many parents choose to make one or more "visit trips" to Guatemala, in order to see their child before the finalization occurs, but this doesn't always happen. And when some families visit and bond with a child, they may later be unable to bring that child home for reasons mentioned above.

With China, you don't finalize the adoption till you get to China. At least one spouse in a married couple must travel, and a single person adopting must travel. You meet your child the day you arrive, or the next business day. You inspect your child and take custody of your child. Only then does the finalization occur.

There is no real risk that the finalization won't occur, unless you choose not to accept the child. The finalization is not a judicial process, and it is somewhat pro-forma. You go with your travel group to a government office, where each family will be asked a few questions by provincial officials. You have already been approved by the CCAA, so unless you do something really stupid at the provincial meeting (like slapping your baby or introducing your same-sex partner), you don't need to worry about rejection.

Again, this approach works for me. I was glad to have the chance to see my daughter before I adopted her, even though her small size and her obvious illnesses were a bit worrisome. And I welcomed the opportunity to see the provincial officials and their genuine concern about the wellbeing of the children. At the same time, I didn't have to worry that some judge would decide that he didn't like the match, and invalidate the adoption.

It is true that, with China, visitation prior to the actual adoption is not permitted. With Guatemala, some families really like having a chance to bond with their child at their hotel for a few days on a visit trip. They can determine whether there are any medical concerns or other problems that might make them choose to reject the placement. They may even be able to accompany the foster Mom to a medical exam.

China parents don't have this opportunity. You cannot visit your child prior to pickup; it isn't allowed -- and it wouldn't make much sense, since travel occurs so soon after referral. And you basically become "instant parents". The child is put into your arms, and you have physical and legal custody from that time forward; you finalize that day or the next.

Of course, you can still turn down the placement. If the child who is handed to you is clearly very ill or very disabled, and both your agency and the provincial officials agree, you will get another referral right away if you want one. If you simply don't like his/her looks or are worried because she is grieving heartily, you won't. So I'm not sure that the inability to visit is a huge problem.

With Guatemala, some agencies allow escort, for families who can't travel for one reason or another. With China, this option is not available; at least one parent must travel.

But frankly, the China trip is the trip of a lifetime, and it is short. You will probably find yourself wishing you could stay more than the 10-14 days that most adoptions from China require.

With Guatemala, some families worry a lot about safety, and about being hassled for adopting, when they travel, either for visits or for the pickup trip. Frankly, that's understandable. There is a good deal of anti-adoption sentiment in some quarters. And there is also a good deal of general violence. Here is one sentence from the U.S. State Department website: "Violent crime, however, is a serious concern due to endemic poverty, an abundance of weapons, a legacy of societal violence, and dysfunctional law enforcement and judicial systems." U.S. citizens may not always be well regarded.

With China, on the other hand, personal security is rarely an issue. You can walk outside your hotel day and night. If you observe the usual common sense rules that you would follow in any big city, you will not fall victim to any crime of violence. And if you are aware that pickpockets hang out in big cities near where Americans and other foreigners congregate, looking for passports that can be altered for illegal immigration, you will be cautious about your valuables in such places. One thing you should know is that the Chinese police punish crimes against foreigners very harshly; this is a big deterrent.

Moreover, you will very rarely find Chinese citizens who criticise you for adopting. Most families report that, when out and about with their babies, they are greeted with "thumbs up" gestures and smiling greetings of, "Lucky baby! Lucky baby!" I was amazed, when I traveled, at how many Chinese people went out of their way to help me with baggage or to protect me from a sudden downpour. The people I met were, universally, pro-American and pro-adoption. My travel group got applauded at a restaurant at a Buddhist temple!

With Guatemala, the trip home with your baby may not be a pleasure, but it is likely to be fairly short unless you live on the West Coast of the U.S. Jet lag will be minimal unless you cross several time zones. With China, you can count on a trip that uses most of a day and a night. Believe me, it will be hard. You will be tired for days afterwards. But the good news is that it will soon be forgotten, as you enjoy having your new child.

With Guatemala, there's a sense of arbitrariness about the government's approval process. Families complain of numerous "kickouts" from PGN (the Solicitor General's office) for minor typos and similar issues unrelated to their fitness to parent. The time frame for approval varies from person to person. Your adoption could be completed in four months (rare), while someone else could languish in approval Hell for a year.

With China, there is less of a sense of arbitrariness. Once your dossier goes to China, you will get a referral when every other family with the same log-in date gets a referral. Yes, a very few families are rejected during the review by the CCAA but, in most cases, the adoption agency should have been able to predict problems. Criminal history, recent history of cancer or other life-threatening illness, history of drug or alcohol abuse or mental illness other than simple depression or anxiety. Yes, these can cause denials. But if an agency is concerned about a particular family's situation, it can get a preliminary opinion from the CCAA before a dossier is ever submitted.

With Guatemala, you can adopt through an agency or a facilitator (unlicensed adoption provider), or even do an independent adoption. And an independent social worker can do the homestudy for the adoption. Your agency or facilitator will usually use a Guatemalan attorney to help find a child, shepherd the birthmother through the relinquishment process, and finalize in court.

With China, you must use a licensed, not-for-profit adoption agency. And a nonprofit agency must also do the homestudy. While some agencies have in-country people who help with things like translation or communciation with the CCAA, they are not absolutely necessary. There is no need for a separate attorney. The CCAA approves dossiers and makes all the matches. And, as I mentioned before, the finalization is a notarial process that takes place in a government office and is largely ceremonial, because the CCAA did all the detailed reviewing that was necessary.

In short, I'm biased. I like the Chinese process. I know that you like the Guatemalan one, as you have been through it. But I suspect that you will like the Chinese process just as well, if not better.

Sharon

[carolinih]

Thanks for the information. I too am embarking on a China adoption. What is going on with the wait times? I've read some posts that the wait times are longer?

[specialk4b]

carol, long story short - there are more dossiers form prospective parents than there are available children.

[carolinih]

Wow. Is this something new? I always heard that there were so many baby girls abandoned in China. Have they discovered birth control or something?

[Lissa]

China is actively working towards minimizing the number of girls being left to be found through vigorous campaigns both in urban and rural areas. These campaigns are becoming more and more sucessful so less children are being left. Also as China grows economically more families will be able to afford to adopt domestically which is also being strongly encouraged by the government. All of these things are good things for China's daughters, but spell longer wait times for the ever growing number of individuals who have chosen to adopt from China.

[sak9645]

Ever since China adoption began, in 1992, wait times have fluctuated dramatically.

Very early on, referrals were coming two to three months after log-in date. That was when two Chinese Ministries (government bureaus), Justice and Civil Affairs were processing adoptions

The big Reorganization of China's adoption system in 1996, which put control of international adoption in one entity, now called the China Center for Adoption Affairs, increased wait times for some applicants. My dossier went to China in mid-April, 1996 -- one month before the Reorganization -- and I waited until the end of January, 1997 to get a referral.

Since then, referral times have gone up and down, with the shortest waits being about five months and the longest being about fourteen months. People were getting used to waits in the seven to eight month range, recently, when they began to increase again. Right now, some agencies are saying that waits "could" go as long as 18 months or more, but there is no proof that they will.

Carol, the Chinese have used birth control and abortion extensively for many years. That has nothing to do with waits for referrals.

Currently, the most important reason for the lengthening of waits is that China is now the #1 country from which Americans adopt, and is also popular with people from other countries. It simply takes time for the China Center for Adoption Affairs to work through all the dossiers.

China reviews dossiers in the order in which they are logged in. You won't get a referral until all the Americans and other foreigners whose dossiers were logged in before yours get referrals. So if there are a lot of people in line before you, you'll have a longer wait.

China also feels that waits may increase because orphanages may not be sending enough child dossiers to the CCAA. It is true that MORE Chinese orphanages are participating in international adoption, which could theoretically make more babies available.

However, some orphanages have actually reduced the number of child dossiers that they submit to the CCAA, for a variety of reasons:

1. The Chinese government has begun to show signs of recognizing that the one-child policy led to some of the abandonments that occurred in the past two decades. The government's official position is that the policy was intended to encourage VOLUNTARY decisions to marry later and have fewer children, but that some corrupt officials have told families that they would face huge fines, job loss, etc., if they had more than one child.

In fact, the strict enforcement of the one-child policy was fairly widespread, and some families felt that they had to hide over-quota children or else abandon them, because they simply couldn't afford the fines and other penalties. If such strict enforcement actually is lessening, it could be that fewer children are abandoned, though I suspect that the decrease in numbers isn't huge yet.

2. China has definitely been putting on a campaign that stresses the equal worth of female and male children. Traditionally, Chinese families have felt a need to have sons, because sons were the ones who cared for parents in their old age; daughters married and went to care for their inlaws. Since there is no Medicare or Social Security in China, some families still prefer to have sons as a form of insurance, and may abandon baby girls, especially if they are very poor or if they fear one-child penalties. If China is making even a small dent in traditional attitudes, it could result in fewer abandonments related to gender preference.

3. China has also been trying to encourage more domestic adoption, so there will be less dependence on international adoption. In general, there is a cultural discomfort, in China and many other countries, about taking in a child who is "not of your blood". Changing such attitudes will take time. However, if there is even a small change in such attitudes, orphanages will "reserve" more children for domestic adoption, and send fewer child dossiers to the CCAA.

4. The CCAA oversees the quality of orphanage care and the documentation of children's health status and other information. In the recent past, it has become more strict, especially in terms of documentation. Prospective parents today get MUCH more documentation about their children today than they did just ten years ago, and it tends to be somewhat more accurate.

But all of this work comes at a price. Upgraded conditions and improved documentation require lots of staff time. If busy orphanage staff don't have the time to do detailed recordkeeping and program development, they may be denied the right to send child dossiers to the CCAA. Even more importantly, if they don't have the time, they may send FEWER dossiers to the CCAA. And if they send incomplete dossiers, those dossiers will not be made available for matching.

5. Historically, orphanages have had some preconceptions about the type of child that foreigners want. Most assume that foreigners prefer to adopt healthy infants. As a result, the dossiers of healthy infants are most likely to be sent to the CCAA; those of other children may not be sent. In fact, however, the CCAA wants to see toddlers, older children, and children with special needs find permanent, loving families. And plenty of Americans DO want slightly older children or agree to take children with certain issues, such as cleft palate or a big birthmark or Hep. B carrier status. If there are no such children with dossiers at the CCAA, these families will have to wait longer for a referral, or express willingness to take a healthy infant.

Sharon

[Sheba]

Sharon,

Well said as usual. I also like the Chinese adoption process and am waiting to be dtc again. We highly recommend it to all. As far as wait times go, they go long and short all the time. We only waited 6months for a referral for Kennedy but expect 12-18 for Kelsi, but you never know and it can shorten back up again quickly.

The one thing you do know, is that you will get a referral and travel to get your child.

[Guatmom2006]

sak9645,
I wasn't really looking for a comparison of countries, because I believe there are challenges and benefits to each country. Although some of what you said about Guatemala is true, there were some inaccuracies and I would hate for someone who read that post to turn away from Guatemala because of it. Guatemala is a beautiful country and there are many wonderful people who do support adoption. There is a huge need for it there, and until the country can stand on its own both socially and economically, the children of Guatemala will need safe and loving homes. God lead me to Guatemala for this first adoption and regardless of any hardships, I would not change a thing, as we are called to walk in faith. Adoption from any country requires this. That being said, I'm thrilled that you advocate for the China program. I'm sure I will as well, as with Guatemala.

[SofiasMom]

a good resource is Families with Children from China

Families with Children from China