[maavjiam]

This makes me so unhappy. I can't believe that these agencies have the right to discriminate. We are Catholic Christians. The name Christos is what it is all about - our Saviour Jesus Christ. Geezes it's appalling.

I am sorry to you who have experienced this. I will be sure to open my eyes when looking at an Agency.

If anyone is Canadian and know of an agency here in Ontario please let me know.

THANKS

MAAV

[Makareina]

The really interesting thing is that the first Christians were Catholic. Every other Christian faith broke away from Catholicism for various reasons. I believe that the problem, if that's what we can call it, with some Christian agencies and or groups with reference to "Catholics" is that in their view, Catholics aren't active in their faith. We get Baptised as infants (most of us) before any cognition of what it means, we go through a bunch of other sacraments which are required, we as a whole can't recite Biblical passages at random, and we say a bunch of prayers the same way every Sunday with many people being able to recite them without an ounce of contemplation. That is often where the problem lies. They feel that the "born again" issue is important because it is at that time that you actually take Christ as your Lord and Saviour. They don't recognize reverence to Saints, or Our Lady the Blessed Virgin. Much of what makes us Catholic means nothing to them. And in many ways, and about many Catholics, they are right. Many people who call themselves Catholic are asleep in the faith. That's not exclusive to Catholics, it's present in all faiths, it's just that it seems that Catholics are held to a higher standard somehow and so our faith gets picked apart more often than do others.

Also, with many agencies and the one we are going through is one of them, just being able to say "Yes I believe in God." isn't enough. They want families who do live in their faith, go to Church and have a relationship with God which is apparent on the outside. There are many agencies for whom asking about faith is just a basic answer to a question, it has no bearing upon whether or not they will work with you. On the other hand, there are other agencies who make it mandatory for families they are working with to be active in their faith. That is their right.

Going to Mass on Sundays does not make one person better than another, there is no judgement upon that merit being made. Many people who never step foot into a church do their very best every single day to live a good life, and to do as little harm to themselves and neighbor as possible. The point is that as Christians... we have been told that it is important for us to gather as a group to share our faith. To receive the Sacraments and to have fellowship with others who believe as we do. That is what Christ asked us to do... to gather in His name for contemplation, for fellowship, for praise and worship, and for us, as Catholics, to take and experience our most Holy Sacraments. It's not something somebody made up along the way... Christ gave us this mandate on how to live our faith. So, with that in mind, agencies who feel it is important to impart Christ as a real and active part of a child's life certainly should have the right to.

[StevieM]

A girl close to us was in foster care in the home of a Baptist deacon. She finally ran away after several instances of sexual abuse from this man.

To think that the Chritian adoption agency would be more likely to place a child in his home than a Catholic family is just wrong. If they don't consider Catholics to be Christians, then what do they call them? Pagans? Heathens? Give me a break!

As an old friend once said, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger." I agree.

Stevie

[May4u2nvme]

That's exactly was I was talking about Stevie. You hit the nail on the head. Just because someone says they are "Christian doesn't make them good, and weather or not they go to church on a regular basis doesn't matter either way. Yes one is supposed to attend mass every Sunday, but in todays world that is not always easy, not to mention that prayer and faith is not limited to people when they attend church, just like people that attend church on Sunday don't nessasarily folow any Christian life out side of a couple hours on Sunday.

May

[maavjiam]

I am a practicing Catholic, both my husband and I. I also teach religious studies at a Catholic high school. The issue is that an agency should not placed its biases as a means of restricting people. Firstly it's againsts constitutional rights! Besides that I have never in my life taught my students nor have I ever said that "Catholics" are better than any other religions. Religions who suppress are not "godly" in any nature. Christ never suppressed any group, he had both women and men in his following and opened up the teachings of God to all people (Gentiles, Pagans and Jews). I have studied the historical Jesus and so I know a bit or two about faith and history and so I find it unethical and disgusting.

I understand the point that we aren't "Christian/Catholic" because we go to church etc...but the truth is we must try to follow the Commandments of God and the new rules of God as best as we can. Also we must LIVE by the Golden rule and live by the Beatitudes that were given to us by God. Maybe before we judge we should sit in and listen to what it truly MEANS to be CHRISTIAN. Whether we are ORTHODOX, a Christian group or Catholic it doesn't make a difference, one is not better than the other....we are all the same. Maybe we must think that the important thing is that Jesus was born, suffered, died and rose for OUR SALVATION. We have to give thanks for the life we have and go back to CATECHISM!!

I just had to reply...it's not right. I could never teach my children such bigotry! It actually makes me want to say..HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF CHRISTIAN if you cannot follow the Goldren rule or the message of Christ to love thy neighbour etc.

Please take note that what I have written is not intended to OFFEND anyone. It is my personal opinion about the subject. Thank you.

[Makareina]

I still don't see why agencies who mandate only working with practicing Christians are wrong. They aren't discriminating... they are catering and working with a particular group of people. They have the right to do that. If you don't want to work with an agency who mandates that their families are practicing Christians, then go to a different agency. They are catering to a particular birth parent as much as to a particular adoptive parent. Nobody is forced to work with them. There are also agencies who only work with Jewish families... are they discriminating because of that?

One agency in particular, which we are working with, does adoptions without fees... not because they are mandated to, not because they are legally bound... but because of their deep and involved faith in God's plan for children. Prayer is in every part of what they do... and it is their opinion that for families to work with them, those families should have a similarly prayerful view of life. Is it their fault that other agencies cost much more to adopt through? No. (As an aside, they are also doing their best to have a legal cap placed on how much it can cost for a domestic adoption to be completed.) The agency I am speaking of hasn't worked with Catholic couples to date, I believe that we are the first, and they have turned people away... lots of them. None though because they say they are Catholic... they turn people away who say they are any Christian faith if that couple are not practicing that faith.

[StevieM]

Originally posted by Makareina
I still don't see why agencies who mandate only working with practicing Christians are wrong. They aren't discriminating... they are catering and working with a particular group of people.

My gripe with this situation has nothing to do with working with a particular group. What I found abrasive was the way the agency dismissed a Catholic family as not being Christian!!! If they attended Mass everyday, it wouldn't have mattered. They were turned away for not falling under what the agency considered Christian.

Wrong. Period. Just wrong...

Stevie

[Makareina]

... but, the thing is that the agency in question is the one who accepted us. Knowing full well we are Catholic. This is not a huge agency... they don't have dozens of people answering the phones. I'm not saying that May didn't get some level of information she felt was leaning the way she says... my concern is that others might not choose to go to that agency solely based upon what she is saying... that they don't view Catholics as Christians.

It's not Catholics they turn away, it's non-practicing Christians that they turn away. Their policy in no way limits what denomination of Christians they accept... their limits relate to whether a couple is practicing their Christian faith or not.

[aspenhall]

I thought the Christian forum was for Believers in general and then broken down into identified religions...but if yours wasn't listed...feel free to post there...

I figured anyone who follows Christs teachings and takes upon themselves His name is a Christian. It doesn't matter how often you attend church or not as long as you make an honest effort to go as often as you can.

I am surprised and actually kinda pleased that my religion is not the only one picked apart, PICKETED and proclaimed as NOT Christian. I feels kinda nice to have some company. I guess The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints just picked that name cause it sounded cool???
Like..... *with sarcasm* ..."Oh, yeah we just call ourselves that, but we really don't follow His teachings or anything. AND that big beautiful picture of Him in my house is just something I picked up for half-price for the empty spot on my wall!"....... ***WHATEVER!!!** .....

**PS: (is it ok that I post here?) I just saw this was on the Catholic threads....ooops...

(a verse from a children's hymn)

"...Jesus said love everyone,
Treat them kindly too.
When your heart is filled with love
Others will love you...."

[Shoshana]

an example to illustrate, imo, one reason why it isn't right...

how would could it possibly be **right** for an individual X religion (catholic, LDS, jewish) to be rejected from adopting a haitian child who, in all likelihood, will live out their childhood in an orphanage rather than be allowed to have a family.

gosh, i really DO try to stay away from quoting the bible but what about "judge not lest ye be judged?" i'm sorry, this is just my humble opinion, but determining an individual's worth and merit based on religion smacks of elitism and intolerance.

[ucme4dk]

Hi Elizabeth,
As a fellow Jew your posts are absolutely right on. Having done both international and domestic adoptions, I was personally a little disgusted with agencies that would only work with Christian families. It was very dicouraging to think that Judiasm, my religion , which Christianity stemed from from thought to be a substandard religion to them, and that my husband and myself were not as qualified candidates for adopting. By the way with both my daughters birth moms, Hannah's whose was Catholic, and Abby's who was Buddist/Christian, they did not care that we were Jewish but embraced it, and just wanted to make sure that each of my daughters were going to grow up in loving, stable homes!! Just my .02 cents worth!!!
Sara

[bromanchik]

I think it is also important to note that Jewish Family Services and Catholic Charities accept clients of all religions.

My problem with "Christian" agencies having this practice is that they are limiting the types of families to choose from. Not all birthmothers that go to these agencies are necessarily looking for a "Christian" family. I went to Catholic Human Services because back then they were the only one's doing truly open adoption. I was overjoyed to find "lapsed" Catholic parents for my son.

[Scarlet]

May,
I don't know if you are still looking for a Christian Agency or not. But I thought I would through this out there. I am Catholic and we looked into Catholic Charities in our area, but they are a small operation. If we would have gone with them it would have been several months before we would have even been able to get started in the process. We contacted Bethany. They accepted us as Catholic Christians and we have had no problems with them at all so far.
Laura

[taggrr2]

I could write all day on this! But I won't! A few points.

I am a practicing Catholic and I agree with Makareina. I have absolutely no problem with a group of like-minded people getting together, opening an agency (with qualified pros, of course) and establishing criteria they want to see in paparents. If the tables were turned, I think I would want that freedom.

Some evangelicals truly believe that Catholics will not get to heaven. If I TRULY had that belief, I think I would want that potential for the children I placed and probably would think I couldn't do anything else.

I think the potential for sexual abuse, mental/emotional stability really needs to come out in the home study and the anecdote that was shared is more an indictment of the investigator than the profession of faith. Church attendance is only one piece of the puzzle, of course.

I think "disgusting' is a pretty harsh word and it is CERTAINLY not an unconstitutional practice. The Constitution simply says Congress shall make no law establishing a religion OR preventing the free exercise thereof, blah blah blah. Congress is not involved in this at all. In fact, IMO, it is Constitutionally protected as the free practice of religion. As Catholics, we are up in arms at the ruling in CA requiring us to cover contraception in a Catholic charity health plan. Same logic here, IMO.

As far as limiting the pool for pbparents, this is a nonissue. Pbparents are in no way, shape or form restricted in which agency they use or the number of agencies, for that matter. If no match is there, keep looking.

As far as Catholicism being picked apart, remember, it was the PROTESTant reformation. The thing that was being protested was the Catholic church and the differences still exist today.

Sorry I had to edit so much, I wrote the whole thing at once the first time and then lost it before I posted. Took the safe way this time and saved each paragraph.

For what it's worth, my $.02

[Makareina]

... to me, that is is an actual bone of contention! Truly, it's amazing! Firstly, neither prospective adoptive parent, nor birth parent is forced/coerced/talked into/bribed or otherwise put into a position where they must work with Christian agencies. The ground being tread here is shaky... and if we are to admonish agencies for trying to keep a specific faith at the heart of adoptions, where is it to go? Both of our birth mom's absolutely WANTED Christian families for their babies. Nobody talked them into it, there are over a dozen agencies both could have worked with, they chose the one where they were more sure their children would be brought up as Christian! If it hadn't mattered to them what the faith of the prospective adoptive couples would be, they could have made a different choice in who they wanted to go to.

Taggr made a great point in that it's the duty of the homestudy and the social worker carrying out that homestudy to be SURE that things are on the up-and-up in a household/family who is hoping to adopt! Bringing issues to the fore of how children may be abused/maltreated or placed with "bad" parents even in Christian homes... irrelovent to this. Of course it can happen, it happens in all levels of society, it happens in all races, all faiths and all countries... and the point is?? The deal is that if you aren't a practicing Chrisitian... there are many other places you can go to adopt.

That agencies shouldn't be allowed to encourage those of like mindedness and in common faith and beliefs to work together!? Ridiculous! A birth parent going to an agency they know for a fact only works with prospective adoptive families who are Christian is going there knowing that. The agency "in question" I know for a fact informs and discusses with birth parents how faith plays a role in the placements they do... and no birth parent is forced to stay if they don't believe in the mandates and such made by the agency. It's not for a lack of agencies in this country... there are thousands upon thousands to choose from for both birth parents as well as prospective adoptive couples. (One of the issues here is the fact that there are many more families applying with the agency in question than that they work with. This agency does not charge fees... at all! And so for some, who are turned away... it's a bone of contention, it's viewed as not being fair.)

In the end... don't blame a faith group, don't blame an agency. If you are of Christian faith, and it's important to you to work with a Christian agency... there are many out there. If it's not important to you... work with someone else. Whether looking at domestic or International adoption... if a country or area is small and doesn't have a lot in the way of choices of agencies to work with... is that the fault of the agency? Shoshana mentioned "...to be rejected from adopting a haitian child who, in all likelihood, will live out their childhood in an orphanage rather than be allowed to have a family.". If Haiti only has agencies willing to work with Christian families... is that the agencies fault? No it's not. If people have issues with how things are done... rattle cages and see about getting a non-denomination/public style agency in there.

Tearing down Christian agencies because they won't do what we want... the Catholic Church has been beaten up for centuries because it's not "easy". Anyone can not walk in off the street, and get Communion or get married just because they want to. Are we eletist because of that? It's not up to our Catholic faith to "drop" it's requirements because we just don't think we should have to abide by them. It's no more necessary for a truly non-profit Christian agency to have more "comfortable" standards in their selection of families.