[aclee]

but I do not see how asking a birth mother not to use illegal drugs or to be sober when visiting their birth child is jumping through hoops. I CAN see how some adoptive families might make a birth mother feel like they have to measure up, or hold visits over a birth mothers head to be taken away at their whim. I don't see that as part of this particular situation. I wouldn't request random drug testing or anything crazy. I think that's actually my fear though. How would I know if she had "cleaned" up. I guess her life would have to indicate it, or her attitude when she spoke with me via phone or e-mail or whatever. Honestly, everyone makes their own choices. If she chooses to use illegal drugs recreationally, or whatever, that's her choice. I'm not judging, but I will not let that effect a child of mine. I would rather there was no contact on the hope that the mother WOULD clean up her act by the time the child was old enough to find her than for the child to grow up and know from a young age their bio parent was an addict. Is that right or wrong? I don't know...I'm just here, trying to do the best I can, and figure out what I'm okay with and what I'm not, so I personally don't end up in a situation that I don't know how to deal with, and hopefully don't end up with a bio mom that feels like she's jumping through hoops to show me she's no longer doing drugs. I do strongly believe that people can change. I think if I adopted a baby that was positive at birth, and was later told the birth mother had cleaned up and wanted visitation, I would want to meet with her first to see how she was doing. Is that making her jump through hoops? I don't know, maybe it is. I of course thing everything *I* want is reasonable....LOL!

[Vogi2002]

I would tell the agency that if there is drug use you would want to review if you are comfortable with an open adoption. Period.

I would NOT automatically be okay with an open adoption when there is heavy drugs involved. Drinking when you didn't know you were pg is different than a bmom addicted to meth. Sorry...if there is drug use (or gang involvement...as a lot of time that is hand in hand down here) I would say that I will review an open adoption, but take it slowly...and build an outline (NO drug use around the children...on a visit, or anywhere near you. Ever.)

I know of too many aparents who have stuff stolen from them also from bparents addicted to drugs (so I would be cautious at having visits to your house...or having too much info out there)..

Of course this is on a worse case scenario, and of course not all bmoms are like this, but if drugs are involved it is ABSOLUTELY okay to say you want to take openness on a case by case. It's TOTALLY different than saying you are "open" to open adoption period...

[Vogi2002]

Originally Posted by BrandyHagz

Just wondering - are you open to OA if the mother and baby tests positive at delivery, but then she later cleans herself up?

Right Brandy...but what if she doesn't? I totally appreciate what you are saying, but I think by saying "yes we'll have an open adoption" then if they DON'T clean up you have just overpromised them (when you knew they were on drugs in the first place). Whereas by saying "we will start with semi open and be open to vists on conditions a, b, c" then that is better...KWIM?

[thanksgivingmom]

Sorry, let me clarify, i TOTALLY think it is completely fair for you to say that she needs to be sober/clean at visits. You have every right to make that part of your agreement. And if a bmom/bdad chooses not to honor thier end of the bargain then I understand why you would not have a certain degree of openess.

I just think that sometimes we enter tricky territory when we use the child as the carrot to try to get the parent to get clean. I think it's problematic for long-term sobriety and I think it's an unfair position to put the child in to be honest.

As I said before, I REALLY don't think this is where you are going with this, so I truly hope you are not offended by what I said.

[aclee]

This is what I want to say! Is there any way to get a better grip on what percentage of birth mom lie about drug and alcohol use? Obviously we get what we get, and sometimes you just can't know with an infant. I worry that if we accept a situation where it states no drugs and alcohol, and later we find out she lied (either find out she's into drugs later, and there are problems with the infant, even if it didn't test postive at birth, or she tells us she did use during her pregnancy) that I would have a hard time with trust? I would have a VERY hard time if I had paid living expenses and found out a birth mother was using drugs. I would feel responsible for providing her with income that she used for that. Almost like I hurt the baby instead of helping it...If that was a situation where she had already lied, but we had promised open adoption not knowing that, what would I do? I feel if I closed the adoption at that point, even down to only semi-open, it might be hard to go back to open adoption later without hurt feelings.

Originally Posted by Vogi2002

I would tell the agency that if there is drug use you would want to review if you are comfortable with an open adoption. Period.

I would NOT automatically be okay with an open adoption when there is heavy drugs involved. Drinking when you didn't know you were pg is different than a bmom addicted to meth. Sorry...if there is drug use (or gang involvement...as a lot of time that is hand in hand down here) I would say that I will review an open adoption, but take it slowly...and build an outline (NO drug use around the children...on a visit, or anywhere near you. Ever.)

I know of too many aparents who have stuff stolen from them also from bparents addicted to drugs (so I would be cautious at having visits to your house...or having too much info out there)..

Of course this is on a worse case scenario, and of course not all bmoms are like this, but if drugs are involved it is ABSOLUTELY okay to say you want to take openness on a case by case. It's TOTALLY different than saying you are "open" to open adoption period...

[Vogi2002]

Originally Posted by thanksgivingmom

I just think that sometimes we enter tricky territory when we use the child as the carrot to try to get the parent to get clean. I think it's problematic for long-term sobriety and I think it's an unfair position to put the child in to be honest.

I agree with this as well!! I guess that would be my fear in saying YES to visits if they are still hooked...KWIM?

[aclee]

Originally Posted by thanksgivingmom

I just think that sometimes we enter tricky territory when we use the child as the carrot to try to get the parent to get clean. I think it's problematic for long-term sobriety and I think it's an unfair position to put the child in to be honest.

That is actually a really great point, thanks for making it. In retrospect, depending on how the mother felt about her adoption after the fact, I guess lots of letters and pictures could have the reverse effect of what I wanted. You just don't know how an addict would react. That's a great point, thanks for clarifying it for me!

[thanksgivingmom]

I think that some of the moms that lie about things like that are shamed into it...there is a VERY negative stigma associated obviously! I know that I drank before I really knew I was pregnant, and I was really reluctant and scared to admit it. Not because I purposefully wanted to decieve anyone, or hurt DD at all! But I was already getting looks from hospital staff that were bad enough, I couldn't handle even worse ones.

[aclee]

Our social worker was just telling us that she has a birth mom that she took out to dinner (I guess they like to do that, to see what they order, and get them some food in their stomach at least) and the mom ordered a glass of wine. Our social worker allowed that, and paid for the meal, but didn't expense it because she didn't want her supervisor to see it. I asked her if the birth mom indicated occasional alcohol use on her fact sheet, and she said, no she didn't. I asked if she changed it to indicate occasional use, and she said no, she couldn't, and she really believed that the mother wasn't an occasional drinker, that she just really needed a drink because she was stressed out. To ME someone that drinks in front of a social worker who she knows is to a certain extent "judging her" she would certainly drink if she was stressed and at home by herself. I think adoption is stressful, so it's reasonable to assume (to me at least) that mother is an occasional drinker. The social worker knows that, but doesn't tell the adoptive family? I almost feel like the social worker also validated that it was ok to turn to things like alcohol if the expectant mother was stressed.

Okay, after everything I've said, and all my posts...I do want to say...we LOVE LOVE LOVE our social worker. I don't agree with what she did in this case, but I didn't speak up. I think now though, maybe that is what has lead me to this feeling of insecurity. I mean I knew there were some expectant mothers that would lie, and I could guess that was pressure (especially an underage mother, who might be attending these sessions with her parents...she's already pregnant and now she has to say, in front of her parents that she smokes pot and drinks...I doubt many of them would)...but I always thought that if the social workers even felt like the mothers might be lying they would speak up. She said they can't! I did see one post on a site listing available adoptiong that said some thing like...Birth mother states no drugs. Her family indicated there is heron useage, or something like that...that is scarey to read. I feel like that is a mother that is not only a drug user, but also a mother that is not even indicating that what she has done is wrong, and could impact the child. That is not a mother that has a firm grip on reality, and honestly, not a mother that I want to meet for pizza and a soda. Yet I might, since I might not have know that if her family hadn't stepped forward with that information. OR maybe she is clean now, and her family is crazy, or doesn't believe she is. Theoretically (this is not a situation we have been asked to submit a profile on) ....is this a situation that I should just avoid all together...maybe...how do I know? Talk to her and make my own choice? Stake my child's future and how well he knows his birth mother on what she says, what my gut says, or on what her family says? Who knows...

I feel like if I don't make the right choice initally several things can happen and all would be negative...
1) I could have to move the adoption back from Open to semi-open. There are always hurt feelings there. Hers, mine, and maybe a child. Depends on how long the open adoption has been for.
2) The child grows up in an Open Adoption, and gains a negative image of their birth parent. Later on, the birth parent changes, but maybe all the child can see is the old negative image. Had we had a semi-open adoption, all the child would know would be the positive image, and only know about the negative stuff if the birth parent decided to share that.

I guess the real question here is...Is it my place to "protect" a child emotionally from really knowing their birth parent. Is it my job to attempt to make their realtionship as good as it can be, or is it the birth mothers job to make the relationship as good as it can be? I feel like it's mainly her job to maintain her relationship, but with my support. If she can't make the right choice, then I should do that. My choice would be to only expose the child to her, when the child would leave that exposure with a postive image of the birth parent. Is that my choice to make? It sounds pretty controlling.....

[RavenSong]

The easiest solution to this problem is to not consider any babies whose mothers have used drugs or alcohol during their pregnancies. Sure, you'll have to wait longer to adopt an infant, but maybe you won't be so stressed out or insecure.

[BrandyHagz]

I guess, Natalie, if we sat here and argued 'what if's' all night - we'd be here for the rest of our lives.

My point was, OA should be flexible - that's it. Life (and everyone involved in it) changes.

[wilted rose]

aclee, perhaps you're looking for some guarantees, that's challenging at best. All you can do is state what you're comfortable with, and be patient and confident that it will come to fruition. That said, life is full of changes and transition, in any event life can throw us curves...
Regards,
Rose

[browneyes0707]

I agree with Raven, if it's a concern of yours don't take a chance and let the agency know you won't consider known drug and alcohol use during pregnancy. This is for your own peace of mind, and as you said, you want something you can live with. You have every right to choose the conditions and boundaries you are comfortable with, and you should.

As far as not knowing about "lying" about alcohol abuse, the thing about adoption is that it involves a HUGE leap of faith. You won't know for sure if a potential birthmom is lying on her profile any more than she will know if you are embellishing or lying to make yours look more attractive, KWIM? A PBM has to take what she sees at face value and just blindly trust that she is placing her child in the type of environment she feels comfortable with. On the flip side, you need to do the same that the PBM is being up front with you about her medicals and her health as well. Bottom line, you'll never know for sure, barring a positive test at birth. Just like she will never know that that "new car" and "wealthy area" you might live in is more modest than it sounds.

Incidentally, we were just talking about alcohol consumption during pregnancy, and from what most of my friends that are new moms say, most OB/GYN's will tell you a glass of wine or a beer a week is fine during pregnancy. I know every MD has their own thoughts and practices, and a lot of women don't indulge. (Remember the uproar though when Gwyneth Paltrow was photographed in a pub having a pint in her 7th month?) Maybe the woman that met with your agency is a subscriber to that belief, and when she read the question on her application, she took alcohol use to mean in an excessive manner, not the occasional glass of wine.

Placing my child was stressful, but it didn't cause me to drink while I was pregnant. I would imagine being pregnant in a lot of other situations would be as well, (husband leaving them in the midst of a pregnancy for example) but a lot of the women I know who found themselves stressed didn't reach for a bottle either. Just a thought

[aclee]

Originally Posted by browneyes0707

I agree with Raven, if it's a concern of yours don't take a chance and let the agency know you won't consider known drug and alcohol use during pregnancy. This is for your own peace of mind, and as you said, you want something you can live with. You have every right to choose the conditions and boundaries you are comfortable with, and you should.

As far as not knowing about "lying" about alcohol abuse, the thing about adoption is that it involves a HUGE leap of faith. You won't know for sure if a potential birthmom is lying on her profile any more than she will know if you are embellishing or lying to make yours look more attractive, KWIM? A PBM has to take what she sees at face value and just blindly trust that she is placing her child in the type of environment she feels comfortable with. On the flip side, you need to do the same that the PBM is being up front with you about her medicals and her health as well. Bottom line, you'll never know for sure, barring a positive test at birth. Just like she will never know that that "new car" and "wealthy area" you might live in is more modest than it sounds.

Incidentally, we were just talking about alcohol consumption during pregnancy, and from what most of my friends that are new moms say, most OB/GYN's will tell you a glass of wine or a beer a week is fine during pregnancy. I know every MD has their own thoughts and practices, and a lot of women don't indulge. (Remember the uproar though when Gwyneth Paltrow was photographed in a pub having a pint in her 7th month?) Maybe the woman that met with your agency is a subscriber to that belief, and when she read the question on her application, she took alcohol use to mean in an excessive manner, not the occasional glass of wine.

Placing my child was stressful, but it didn't cause me to drink while I was pregnant. I would imagine being pregnant in a lot of other situations would be as well, (husband leaving them in the midst of a pregnancy for example) but a lot of the women I know who found themselves stressed didn't reach for a bottle either. Just a thought

Just because it's a concern, doesn't mean that it's not a leap of faith that I will make. It just means that I'm thinking things through...never a bad thing.

I do however have to STRONGLY disagree with you on the fact that PBM can lie, and so can PAP...not really. Agencies look into EVERYTHING about out lives. I can't lie about how much I make, how much debt I have, or how many bedrooms I have in my house. I can't even say I'm going to be a SAHM if my financial numbers don't support that we could do that. I can not lie about my job, or where I live. I guess I could lie about some things. I could lie about how I intend to parent (which is VERY important to PBM, I understand) but in essence...when we talk about the parent's we'll "be" we are all lying. As first time parents we can only guess at how we'll react, and how we won't...after we've told the child no for the 500th time, will we raise our voice. Maybe. No one knows what they will be like as a parent till they are one. I guess the big difference is as PAP we can embelish and lie about our intentions, but a PBM can lie about the health of an infant and use of illegal drugs...it doesn't seem the same...but I don't lie about what I will provide so of course it will seem like a larger risk to me. I am not talking about 1-2 drinks though the whole pregnancy. I'm talking about someone having the balls (pardon the words, but that's what I mean) to ask for a glass of wine in front of a social worker, (who in all likely hood, is placing her child) because she is stressed. If she cares so little about how she presents herself then, does she really care at all? If she does it in front of her social worker, I find it easy to believe that she also does it at home when she's stressed, whether she admits it or not. Maybe that's judgemental of me, but I am sensitive about the alcohol over other drugs. Personally I think you either believe that alcohol and drugs have a negative effect on a fetus, so you don't use them, OR you don't believe it OR you don't care. If you can't even display in front of a social worker that you do care, and do believe that they can harm a fetus, then honestly, do you?

Lying happens... it's part of life...I can deal with that. I am not afraid to face challenges, and I've faced many. I just think that something so big, so huge, people should be honest about. I would rather take on an infant where the mother admitted to drug or alcohol use occasionally, or even frequently, than take on an infant who I believed had not been exposed at all, but had been a few times.

The bottom line is there is not "for sure" about any number of exposures, that's why the majority of practitioners tell people to steer clear of these things. BUT if I have an infant who was exposed, I want to know up front. There are so many interventions and therapies that can help with these things when parents know what to look for. If I don't know, I might miss it. Every day, week or month that I don't notice that my baby has a strong startle reflex, or whatever, is more time lost that could be working toward that NOT effecting the infant later.

You know, I don't know what else to say. I'm sure for the most part I sound selfish, and no, I can never really understand what a PBM goes through. I can only understand MY side, and what I fear. Fear is healthy, and when it's faced, and treated correctly, it's not a bad thing. Am I afraid I could end up with an infant that was drug exposed and not KNOW that infant was drug exposed...sure...does that mean I'm going to turn and run the other way OR restrict myself from drug exposed infants no...BTW...if I'm afraid of a mother lying about drug exposure...HOW exactly does stating I will not accept drug exposed infants protect me from that? Two people suggested I not accept drug exposed infants. I guess that would protect me from the people that were lying about frequency, but at least those people are SORT OF telling the truth. If I go with "healthy" infants only and only request infants with no drug exposure, then I could get stuck with a birthmom that won't admit it at all, leaving me to figure it all out on my own while I am not expecting any issues, since they were "not drug exposed"...SO...not accepting drug exposed infants, that does not really solve my problem of being concerned that a PBM could lie about drug exposure...cause she wouldn't have listed it.

I also have no idea where in my posts I have sounded insecure. I know you all only know me by my typing here, but believe me, I am NOT an insecure person (okay my double chin in pictures MIGHT be a sore subject). I don't think dealing with, addressing, and asking these questions up front make me insecure at all. I'm a thinker, and I'm very, very much a planner. I think that could be what's causing some of my problems, but they aren't insecurities. I know that whatever happens, we will be OK. I've worked with every type of child from off the charts smart to autistic, and down syndrome. All of it is doable. I'm not looking for some miracle child, or perfect infant. Do I wish parts of the process were more predictable? You bet. But honestly my main concern (and where this whole thread started) is the Open adoption, and how if a PBM was lying about drug use, I thought that would effect my ability to trust her, and therefore our OA would not be all it could be. I go through this adoption process with the best of intentions to present myself accurate down to a T...I've fought tooth and nail to do so. Family and Agency! I've done that so that I can start on the right foot with our PBM, and build a great relationship. I guess I was hoping for some type of reassurance that those PBM that think OA is important, and would be looking for it, would go about their adoption plan the same way.

In the end, you all should know...I have faith. I have had faith the whole ride, and it's not going anywhere. We signed on with our HS agency having no idea how we would pay for our adoption. We knew this was right, and we kept going. We got denied 3 times for loans. I said, those weren't the right ones anyway...we need to keep going. So we did, and one day I found a loan PERFECT for us. Home Equity Line (only pay interest for the first 10 years and only on what you actually borrow, not the whole amount)...it was so perfect, and I knew we would get approved. We asked for 25K, and were approved for only 20K, some would take that as a partial defeat, but I took that as a further signal that our pursut of a non CC infant was exactly right. I know that we'll be lead to the right baby, and whatever happens in that situation will not be more than we can handle. We'll make the best of it, and I believe we'll be exactly what the birthmom needs, even if she does lie to us. It will all be what needs to be. There is peace in that. We went to a friends house tonight, and they are far more religous than we are, and attend church every week. I'm very close with the wife, and hubby is close with her hubby...they have been friends for years. But I'm comfortble with her, and talk with her more about how I know this is our path, and the right baby will come our way. She totally teared over and said that was what she thought too, and that she was glad I said that, that she prayed for us every night, and that was exactly what she thought. She didn't know how to tell me that, so she was glad I brought it up. It makes teary thinking about her.

Oh man it's late...I knew it was late when I checked the thread and it said yesterday...and it took me a minute to realize that only meant it was after 12:00...GN all!

[RavenSong]

You asked in an earlier post if anyone knows what percentage of potential birth mothers lie about their usage of illegal drugs and/or alcohol. I really don't think there have been any academic studies on this issue. At least none that I know of.

Wow, have times changed that drastically in the past 30 years? Are most birth mothers really snorting crystal meth and cocaine nowadays, or pickling their unborn babies in alcohol?? Are we all pathological liars?? Believe it or not, most of us truly love our babies and would NEVER endanger them in our wombs if we could possibly help it. And most of us would never, ever intentionally be a "bad influence" on our birth sons and daughters. Especially those birth mothers who have placed their precious children into open adoption.

Since your original question was about the open-adoption versus semi-open adoption (or semi-closed, depending on one's point of view), I guess I would advise you to stick with your original intention of putting "semi-open" on your profile. You can always change it to a fully open adoption at a later time. It's more honest, it's more fair.... On a side note, I would in all likelihood not even consider a profile that stated "open adoption on a case-by-case basis". Birthmoms have a hard enough time giving up their children without being made to feel that they might not be "good" enough to meet with the adoptive parents' approval.

Trust goes both ways. I have always considered adoption to be a "sacred trust". I don't know how to allay your fears of having your potential birth mother lie to you about drug usage or anything else, for that matter. I CAN tell you, however, that the great majority of birthmoms love their children and only want what's best for them. Peace.