[MamaS]

Okay - here is a true scenario. What is the ethical thing to do? My daughter got a phone call from a friend. The friend is in her late 20's, single with a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old (by two different fathers who pay no support). She and her two daughters live with her mother, who provides most of their support.
The friend is about four months pregnant. She is not sure who the father is -- could be white married boyfriend or black occasional boyfriend. She had planned on getting an abortion because her mother would not accept another child and she thought no one would want a mixed-race baby. However, after finding out my daughter was adopted, she asked her to help her find a family for the baby. She is looking for a family who will pay her rent and expenses (grandma is going to kick her out) until the baby comes. If the baby is CC/AA, she will sign the adoption papers. BUT, if the baby is all CC, then she will keep the baby and file for child support from the father because he has the money to support it and then her mother would let her come back home if she had some "income" from the baby. Of course, she will not tell the PAPs that whether they get the baby or not depends on the color of the child at birth. But, hey, they are giving her a gift of the money - not paying for a baby, right? And she has the right to decide to parent her baby if he/she looks like it might be an income-producer, right? Or is there something wrong with this picture?

[RavenSong]

MamaS, give me her home address, and I'll go slap her upside the head. Seriously...

Your post has left me stunned--I have to think about this scenario for a bit before replying. I just keep thinking about that phrase, "just when you've seen it all."

[belleinblue1978]

MamaS,

Exactly why NO money should be involved. She wouldn't be able to do that crap.

Is she working with an agency?

[MamaS]

I do not believe she plans to use an agency. She hopes to contact PAPs and let them hire a lawyer and handle all the bills. She has not yet seen a doctor, but she did contact an abortion clinic and was told that it would cost $800-$1000 dollars to do a second trimester abortion. That is what turned her to adoption. One possible father does not have the money to pay for an abortion and the other possible father would refuse to do so on religious grounds. Neither man knows that she is pregnant yet. If they do find out, she plans to tell each that the other man is the father, to keep them "out of her business".
I truly believe that abortion in this case would be wrong, and I also truly believe that this baby would be better off with adoptive parents. (Grandma is de facto parent to the other two, but she has already warned her daughter that she cannot take another one!) If she was going to be upfront and tell the PAPs they would only get the baby if it was mixed, I would feel better -- at least they would know they were gambling. But I also feel uncomfortable about her plan to keep a child, not out of maternal love, but because it is a source of financial aid. Everyone says birthmothers should parent if they want to, regardless of their financial circumstances, but to me, a child should be provided for, not be the provider. I am confused and disturbed, and would like opinions.

[belleinblue1978]

Ok, expectant moms should parent regardless of financial status if they want to. I agree though that a child shouldn't be a meal ticket, but you know, lots and lots of women that never even consider adoption use their kids that way.

I guess in the end, she isn't your child, so even though it is a crummy situation, it probably isn't worth torturing yourself ever. Crappy stuff like that happens all the time.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by cetalley

I agree with Melissa___bear, I do not feel money should enter into the process. I do not have a solution to this extorsionistic(SP?) type of agency business.

I think it is important to note that lawyers were actually the ones who started this practice. Agencies followed suit. It all stinks.

[agathaj]

Mamma S - is there anyway to help her set up home with all three children? So that she is not dependant on grandma and the men? Once society looks at what we can do for the children - it's not their fault they have useless parents - the world will be a better place.

[Saya]

MamaS - someone might want to inform her that it may well be IMPOSSIBLE to tell at birth whether a baby is CC or CC/AA or not. Some bi-racial babies look completely CC at birth, some look AA, and some look mixed. So somehow having a misguided scheme based on her ability to know the race of the baby at birth and thus know who the father is is just not going to work.

I mean there are hundreds of other reasons why this seems misguided to me, but maybe this one might help her come to her senses.

[cetalley]

Originally Posted by MamaS

Okay - here is a true scenario. What is the ethical thing to do? My daughter got a phone call from a friend.

She and her two daughters live with her mother, who provides most of their support.
The friend is about four months pregnant. She is not sure who the father is -- could be white married boyfriend or black occasional boyfriend. She had planned on getting an abortion because her mother would not accept another child and she thought no one would want a mixed-race baby. However, after finding out my daughter was adopted, she asked her to help her find a family for the baby. She is looking for a family who will pay her rent and expenses (grandma is going to kick her out) until the baby comes. If the baby is CC/AA, she will sign the adoption papers. BUT, if the baby is all CC, then she will keep the baby and file for child support from the father because he has the money to support it and then her mother would let her come back home if she had some "income" from the baby. Of course, she will not tell the PAPs that whether they get the baby or not depends on the color of the child at birth. But, hey, they are giving her a gift of the money - not paying for a baby, right? And she has the right to decide to parent her baby if he/she looks like it might be an income-producer, right? Or is there something wrong with this picture?

MAMAS......This young lady needs a reality check, and some birth control ....Not only is this scamming, but what kind of mother could carry a child for 9 months and decide that she will only keep the child if it is white???? WOW...WOW...and WOW. What was she thinking when she crawled into bed with a guy(obviously AA) , knowing she could very well become pregnant, ...was AA good enough to roll in the sack, but not good enough to be a father to her child??? Her mother should file for custody of her children, and boot her to the curb! What morals one must have to be this callous,shallow and corrupt then decide to relinquish her child, only if it is born of color. I have never been more shocked...if I were a person wishing nothing more than to adopt a child,I most definately stay far away from this one. I hope your daughter will have a talk with this person( hell I can't even make myself type lady or young woman), and give her some insight as to what she is about to do is NOT leagal, and definately reeks of a woman whom deserves to not have children. I hope this offends no one...I am just appalled...speecless. To all you wonderful, caring , loving moms, whom desire nothing more than to love a child...I apologize for this person...

[jp4ga]

MAMAS- This is a scammer and not fair to anyone involved. The PAPS may be out money when the girl had no real intention of placing, she is going to lie to both men, and is really not thinking about what is best for the baby. It is people like her that make me crazy.

[jp4ga]

I hate emom/bmom expenses. Being pregant does not render a person unable to support themselves in most cases. When my husband and I were adopting I was amazed at how many situations we were given to look at that had expenses of $10,000 or more. We even asked agenecies for a break down of expenses, because I felt like this amount was too much. Most agencies would not give a breakdown until we signed (which would be too late to back out).

My husband and I sat down and determined how much we were willing to "gift" to a emom. We came up with a figure of $4000.00. This number came from what we thought we would need for 1 month if we lost our jobs and were in an emergency situation. It did take us longer to receive a placement because we refused to "buy" a baby. Our emom/bmom expenses at birth ended up being $3000. However, a few days after the birth we received a phone call asking for $1500 more. TPR was not signed and we were being threatherned that the bmom would take the baby back if we did not pay. The courts had to approve the payment, so it was filed as additional expenses due to an emergency c-section. The money was not used for medical expenses.

After the second payment was received the bmom filed for custody, when she asked for the second payment she had ZERO intention of letting us keep the baby. We ended up proving in court that she was a scammer and had done this with her previous babies. Long story short we won, she lost. She was unable to get the baby back becasue she did not meet requirements of the law.

I think the system needs to be revamped. PAPS should not have to pay expenses and bmoms/emoms should not feel like they have to give thier babies away because they got a few bills paid. Right now Adoption is a RISK, and PAPs need to know the risk and be willing to take the risk and decide how much they can afford to "give away".

Adoption needs to be revamped. This passing of money has to stop.

[agathaj]

AS a birthmother I definately agree with you - the passing of money has to stop.

[JustPeachy]

We even asked agenecies for a break down of expenses, because I felt like this amount was too much. Most agencies would not give a breakdown until we signed (which would be too late to back out).

I had no idea stuff like this went on until I came to these boards. When I thought about coersion, I thought strictly in terms of what some bmoms had/have experienced. I never realized the agencies also used coercive tactics like this toward the aparents. The whole system needs to be revamped!

[jp4ga]

Originally Posted by JustPeachy

I had no idea stuff like this went on until I came to these boards. When I thought about coersion, I thought strictly in terms of what some bmoms had/have experienced. I never realized the agencies also used coercive tactics like this toward the aparents. The whole system needs to be revamped!

Some agencies will pressure people both (emoms and PAPS) into making a decision quickly because the other party is looking at another couple or looking at another baby. The agency my friend used, changed the cost after they met the baby and feel in love. The felt like they had no choice but to pay the additional fees or loose the child. It happens to all parties involved and it is not right or fair.

[powderpiggy]

I totally get the concept of coercion when a eparent is faced with placing a child or paying back expenses.

However, whether court approved or not isn't it somewhat coercive to accept financial assistance anyways from a pap? The idea that an emom is getting money because they expect to place? If the emom knew full well before she ever accepted any $$ that it will be paid back, so it is not something that is held over an emom's head as a surprise, is it really any more coercive than accepting the money to begin with? Maybe it is less coersive because it could help alleviate any perceived 'guilt' over accepting $$ and not placing.

That said the best case is that no money ever changes hands, but if it is changing, as long as it is crystal clear before the money is accepted, I don't see paying it back as any more coercive than accepting $$ from a pap to begin with. Something has to be done to provide recourse for the true scammers out there, and there are plenty.

We were fortunate that we did not have any emom expenses and were not in that situation, but I feel for those (on both sides) that are.

It would be best to stop the practice entirely.