[Rondidondi]

I agree that PAPs should not pay for expectant mother expenses.
I refused financial help, I felt it was my responsibility. However towards the end of my pregnancy I was falling behind on my medical bills. M my adoption SW talked me into signing a release for my medical bills. (I couldn't put in the extra hours at work anymore. But I did work until the end of my pregnancy.) She tried talking me into getting help with my car payment and rent too, but I totally refused. From what M told me PAPs did end up paying for an ultrasound, but that's it.
The I was leaving the hospital and M was having me sign some papers (not TPR) she was trying to talk me into getting help to fix my car that was broken down. So I could go to the PAPs and see my son. I told her they promised to bring him to me and I could find a ride. She stated that she was still going to try. Later, I heard rumor that she asked them to buy me a car to make things better. Don't know for sure if this is true, but it TICKS me off! To me it sounds like a trade. I give you my baby, you give me a car.
I do believe something was said because the PAPs kept telling me that they were getting someone to fix my car and he wouldn't be expensive for me. The PA mom was even offering to loan me money until I got my tax refund. I didn't agree. So something was definately said.
When I knew I wanted to parent my son (from the moment he was born), I DID feel that I OWED him to the PAPs. That's the ONLY reason I signed papers and allowed him to go home with them prior to TPR.
I recall like it was yesterday bawling my eyes out in my son's GAL's office telling him...
"I promised him to them...They had three baby showers already...They have paid the agency...They think of him as their son...etc. He was straight forward with me and told me I had to think of NOTHING but my son amd myself. He wasn't going to agree with the adoption because I "was too unstable to make a decision." He reminded me that I was the best choice for my son and I couldn't base my decision on the gifts they gave me, the gifts they received, any money involved, how others would feel or think nor could I think of the pain they would have if I parented.
I sometimes wonder if he wouldn't have slapped sense into me, if...if I would have given them my son because, "I owed him to them." Even though I knew I wanted to parent I felt that I should have to live with the pain verses give them the pain I was feeling. It was a HORRENDOUS decision to take my son from them. I KNEW the pain they would be feeling, I didn't want to do that to them. I felt to give someone the pain I was feeling was the worse thing someone could do to another.
I am VERY VERY VERY happy I did parent my son. I do see how someone could still sign those papers though, JUST BECAUSE of the financial help she received throughout pregnancy. The thought of paying all that back and taking care a her child could be way overwhelming.
I agree 100% with Bromanchik. If PAPs aren't willing to risk the money, then don't agree to the situation. Its a gamble, it sucks, but it's true. The best solution would be to just keep expectant mother expenses out of adoption.

[cetalley]

Originally Posted by melissa_bear003

I'm the one that stated it on the aparents board, so I thought I'd comment here as well.

I think its completely and totally unfair and ridiculous that paps can pay thousands of dollars in support and health care monies, and basically be told too bad, try again. How many people can afford to take that ride, time and again?

I completely agree and support that a woman has the right to change her mind and parent. No question.

But, when someone has paid your living expenses, health care, etc, then yes, I do think you should be obligated to pay that back. Why should the paps have to be out that money? Why should anyone be financially supported for months? It is a style of contract (or at least, that's my view of it) and while either party can cancel at any time, I really think its wrong that paps are the ones that end up financially stuck. I think it should be viewed as a sort of loan, to be paid if the contract is cancelled. I don't find that coersion, but being responsible for one's actions. If you accept money, knowing that the intention is to adopt, then decide to parent, then yes, you should pay the money back. The funds aren't a gift, they're viewed as a part of the pap's responsibility (in some areas).

I agree with Melissa___bear, I do not feel money should enter into the process. I do not have a solution to this extorsionistic(SP?) type of agency business. I do not know what the parents whom adopted my twin sons, paid, and I do not know if they were in on the corecion - threats, that I endured. I was naive to think that all things done for me is what the agency provided, as a part of working with me to place my sons with loving parents. In the past 6 wks or less, I found out that the agency I went through had it license revoked and several extortion charges have been placed against them, this all happened in 1986, when my twins were taken from me. When I gave birth I fell in love with my twins...I so did not intend for that to happen, and was NOT at all prepared to take 2 babies home...I had not 1 diaper in my apt....so I had full intentions to place, upon calling SW to tell her I could not relinquish...I was threatened with foster care and a judge may also place my 6 yr old into foster care...UNTIL EVERY DIME was paid, then I still may not get ANY of my sons back...so I signed. The expenses were NEVER asked for by me, all was being TAKEN CARE of by the AGENCY....or so I thought. Needless to say, each of our journies are different. My sons were illegal adopted, and blackmarketed to the highest bidder. I will NEVER trust as I did...NEVER. I have lost so much and the only comfort I allow myself is to think they have great parents, are happy and healthy. I must wait to know, if and when I get to meet them. I do not know why some Mothers do not wish to meet and know their children, but I do know we ALL have reasons, and can only HOPE that one day they may be able to face their past and forgive theirselves.....Sorry for the rant, just gave my perspective of coercion and the price I had to pay....

[RavenSong]

Cetalley, I am so very sorry this happened to you. What that agency and social worker did to you was not only wrong, it was immoral and probably illegal. I have read too many of these stories recently. Have you ever read The Girls Who Went Away by Ann Fessler? Many of the women she interviewed went thru a similar experience as you.

I am just so sorry this happened. They were wrong...

[JustPeachy]

I was told my expenses could be paid for, but I refused. I was working and had health insurance, so I paid for everything. I even paid for the costs which my insurance did not cover, all my doctor's appointments, prenatal vitamins, maternity clothes, etc. I felt I could have asked for reimbursement of what my insurance did not cover, and other out of pocket expenses, however, I felt it would be like selling my baby. I didn't want to take a dime.

This is a tough situation. Because even if the e-mom knows and understands she will have to pay back expenses if she changes her mind, so many are adamant about placing, but have no idea how they will feel after the baby is born (people tried to tell me I'd bond with my son and it would be hard to go through with the adoption and I INSISTED I would be able to hand him over NO PROBLEM--boy was I in for a rude awakening!). I still placed and did not feel coerced at all, but if I had wanted to parent and money was involved that needed to be paid back, it would be very hard to come up with that cash. Paying back money should NOT be used as a way to pressure a woman into relinquishing. She should not be forced to pay it back before she can take her baby home, for instance. Any payment plan should take into consideration her ability to pay, and chances are, if she needed the funds in the first place, she will not be able to make even minimal payments with a new baby to support. It is probably best that no money exchanges hands in the first place, and if the emom needs help, it should be found from other sources that are not involved in the adoption.

[EZ2Luv]

No Money should not be used to force a woman into relinquishment and I will always tell an emom that they do not owe anyone their baby no matter what.

This is why money should not be allowed into the equation.

EZ

[belleinblue1978]

I don't even think threatening a payment plan is right. It is still saying if you don't do A then B will happen. If a woman is placing due to financial concerns, who really thinks even a payment plan will be super helpful? It won't.

If I would have taken money I would have never been able to change my mind. I would have felt obligated because they helped me.

Money just shouldn't be part of it.

[Jennasmom1990]

Let me throw this out there...

What happens when the aparents agree to pay the medical expenses, they get the baby, and still dont pay for the medical expenses?

That is what happened to me...

J's aparents agreed to pay for the medical expenses and never did even after getting J. They never even bothered to tell me that they didnt pay them. How I found out was about 10 months after J was born I stepped on a fish hook and it embedded in my foot. So I went to the ER (of the same hospital I gave birth to J at) and they refused to see me because I had an outstanding balance of over $5,000 with the hospital. The only way they would treat me was for me to agree right then and there to make payment arrangements on that balance. I paid every penny of that bill, they did not even pay a dime. Then about 6 months later when I went to buy my first car I was denied credit because the unpaid hospital bill was showing up on my credit!

So it is not always the aparents that get shafted...it is just as likely to happen to the bmom as well. Although maybe not so much so in todays time.

[RavenSong]

Casandra, that's horrible what happened to you. Did you place J thru an agency or was it an independent adoption thru an attorney? Either way, wasn't there any recourse available? Did you call the agency or the APs' attorney??

My own opinion is that the birthmom's medical expenses should always be picked up by the agency or APs. I don't even personally believe that Medicaid should be responsible in an adoption case. If those expenses for prenatal care and delivery weren't incurred, then there wouldn't be a baby at all, would there? Why should the taxpayer have to pay for a baby who's going into an adoptive home, ostensibly with parents who have met certain financial requirements in their adoption application?

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Casandra, that's horrible what happened to you. Did you place J thru an agency or was it an independent adoption thru an attorney? Either way, wasn't there any recourse available? Did you call the agency or the APs' attorney??

My own opinion is that the birthmom's medical expenses should always be picked up by the agency or APs. I don't even personally believe that Medicaid should be responsible in an adoption case. If those expenses for prenatal care and delivery weren't incurred, then there wouldn't be a baby at all, would there? Why should the taxpayer have to pay for a baby who's going into an adoptive home, ostensibly with parents who have met certain financial requirements in their adoption application?

Medicaid picked up my son's bills for a year after he was born, and I'm glad that it did...... He had about a quarter of a million in hospital bills. Not many people would be able to pay that. His parents really don't have alot more money than I do. I don't have a problem with medicaid paying for prenatal care and delivery, because a woman might choose to parent even after making an adoption plan.... With medicaid there is no coercion.

[Jennasmom1990]

I went through an attorney, so it was a private adoption.

I was yold that there was no recourse because I waited too long to bring it up, even though I was just finding out at the time. The adoption had been final for 9 months and I couldnt go back now! So I paid it...every penny of it!

Now that we are in reunion and the amom hates that I am alive I have often thought about reminding her of her not paying those medical expenses. Out of spite I have even considered taking her to court to make her pay it back...but I dont and I wouldnt and I wont.

Looking back I am sure that I had other avenues that I could have used to make them pay, but at that point in my life (I was only 18) I didnt know what they were and took the attorneys word as golden.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by belleinblue1978

Medicaid picked up my son's bills for a year after he was born, and I'm glad that it did...... He had about a quarter of a million in hospital bills. Not many people would be able to pay that. His parents really don't have alot more money than I do. I don't have a problem with medicaid paying for prenatal care and delivery, because a woman might choose to parent even after making an adoption plan.... With medicaid there is no coercion.

Belle, that's a totally different situation. You had a medically fragile baby--of course, Medicaid should help pay those bills. No one without health insurance can afford the atrocious amounts that hospitals and doctors charge in cases like your kiddo's.

I'm just speculating about healthy newborns. I guess some of my cynicism about Medicaid paying for healthy newborns comes from me being led to believe that my son's parents were supposedly reimbursing Medi-Cal for my son's birth. As I explained before, I went thru the County, and they didn't have to pay one dime to adopt him. They never did reimburse Medi-Cal. The social worker told me before I delivered that adoptive parents were required to do so. It turned out that she lied to me. Why she lied is a big mystery to me...

[RavenSong]

Belle, another thing just came to mind. Maybe part of the solution could be found if insurance companies were legally required to retroactively pay for prenatal care, labor, and delivery for children who are placed for adoption. I know that adoptive parents' health insurance kicks in for the baby from the day of placement. Perhaps the government should require the insurers to pay the medical costs associated with bringing the child into the world. Just a thought...

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Belle, another thing just came to mind. Maybe part of the solution could be found if insurance companies were legally required to retroactively pay for prenatal care, labor, and delivery for children who are placed for adoption. I know that adoptive parents' health insurance kicks in for the baby from the day of placement. Perhaps the government should require the insurers to pay the medical costs associated with bringing the child into the world. Just a thought...

Now there is a good thought. There is so much reform that needs to be done in insurance land, may as well add that in there.

[RavenSong]

Of course, this whole discussion about medical expenses would be moot if we had some sort of national health insurance, similar to that found in most European countries and Canada. Ooh, I said the dirty word, socialized medicine, LOL.

[SchmennaLeigh]

I second (third, fourth, whatever) the idea that potential families should go into any money handling with the understanding that it is a gift. Otherwise, not only is it coercive for the expectant mother but akin to the purchasing of a child. Not that, often, that is even the intent. But if you are viewing that money as anything other than a gift, it puts it in a different category than what is allowable by law.