[kakuehl]

Originally Posted by BrockBaby

Something hit me as I read that. If we want change..then we have to change the way we are as well. We have to let go of the feelings that others are judging us...and stick up for what we know is right. Instead of saying "well they think this..they think that..." Change THEIR minds about it!!!! Show them something different. Educate them. Cowering in the corner, holding on to shame....gives them the "ammunition that they are looking for to prove their point. But, being as Jackie said, a power woman...will make them step back and take notice that the "ideas" that they had were wrong.

When I began my reunion with D, I decided that it was not going to be secret from anyone. It's amusing to watch people trip their way around it. I simply treat it as a matter of fact. It will be interesting to see what it happens as I seek a new call.

We haven't gotten very far from the Victorian age when young men were expected to "sow their wild oats" before marriage and women were divided as "good" girls who were virgins when then married or others (who were spoken of only in whispers).

[Liliana31]

Originally Posted by JustPeachy

I think this is so true, but also, sometimes people who make those ignorant judgements are so dense, no amount of educating them will work. I think it's important, in those cases, to try and let it roll off you as much as you can, and realize it's not you, it's them.

JustPeachy,
I agree that some of these judgments are plain silly, but some people I know who are wise, educated, good-hearted and very just, feel that giving up your own flesh and blood is heartbreaking. I cannot disagree with that. I would never - ever do that if I could turn back the clock. I´m not about to, I am going forward with my life and trying to prepare myself before I finally meet my daughter.

My darling cousins who I love and I know love me... I know they think my parents made a bad choice and they think I should have done more.

What will my adoptive daughter do?

My fellow writers, my fellow professors at the University... they don´t want to talk about this. They don´t even want to rejoice with me. One good friend said: "I cannot deal with so much tragedy". Do I resign and start working in a gas station or live in hiding? No, I take that back.

I will just introduce her quietly into my life. Before they know, she is one of my family.

Love, Liliana

[Liliana31]

Originally Posted by BrockBaby

Something hit me as I read that. If we want change..then we have to change the way we are as well. We have to let go of the feelings that others are judging us...and stick up for what we know is right. Instead of saying "well they think this..they think that..." Change THEIR minds about it!!!! Show them something different. Educate them. Cowering in the corner, holding on to shame....gives them the "ammunition that they are looking for to prove their point. But, being as Jackie said, a power woman...will make them step back and take notice that the "ideas" that they had were wrong.

I think you hit the nail on the head, BrockBaby. We have to change the way we are as well.

I´m not about to cower in some corner - but judgment is also part of basic human nature. We judge others. It´s normal. I am a power woman, but in a male society I am looked down on now as the University Professor who made a terrible choice. That is reality. But I´m not giving up. Not by a long shot.

Love,
Liliana

[Liliana31]

Originally Posted by JustPeachy

What I've also come to realize, in pondering some more this whole judgement issue, is that in my situation, those who have judged me most harshly often seemed oddly jealous of my choice, or were projecting some of their own dissatisfaction with their own life choices onto me. I can remember friends, for instance, who had unplanned pregnancies who kept their children and were really struggling and unhappy. I think they thought I was somehow "getting off scot free" by placing. I've also noticed people in bad marriages or who are not fulfilled by parenting also lash out more. Maybe they feel they are "stuck" and how dare I "get away with" not having to step to the plate and do my "duty" (espeically as a FEMALE) to do whatever it takes to keep and raise my baby. I think this gets to the reason why it's the women who are so scorned and not the men. Men can impregnate women and walk away without much consequence. Oh, they may be called "deadbeat dads" or something, but there is also that "boys will be boys" mentality and that it is in their nature to "cat around." He's not expected to be the nurturer. Women, OTOH, are supposed to "naturally" want babies, and sacrifice themselves to their children without hesitation, no matter the circumstance, and whether or not you are ready to parent. So if you dare go against the status quo (and making an adoption plan is doing just that), society is going to come down hard on you.

This I noticed a lot when I told people I had given my daugher for adoption. I was envied a lot and I must admit I had more freedom then they had. And it was true for me that we go against status quo. I adore Simone de Beauvoir, but then again, she never was a mother, but I used to quote her again and again. I used feminist ideas on motherhood to justify my choice/not choice. I was in denial at the time, numb and didn´t even think about bonding with my daughter. Now I´m not so sure about all this. I love being a fostermother, and I love being a first/natural mother to my daughter. That´s all I know and I really want to fight against the stigma.

My previous thoughts are in turmoil, because I was in so much denial. It doesn´t mean I think you are. I respect your choice totally, Justpeachy.

Quantum, I really would like to know your story.

Love, Liliana

[kakuehl]

Liliana, please try to remember that you are not the same person who reliquished your child. It's so easy for us to look back and think/say I should have done a,b, or c instead of x, y,or z. I hope that most of us have grown in maturity and wisdom over the years. I know that I would make many different decisions if I could go back. I can't of course. I can only deal with the outcome of those decisions.

Other people will always judge us. Some people will admire us for the decision we made; others will judge and condemn us. Try to remember, that's their problem (in both instances). All we can do is come to terms with the effects of adoption on our lives. Denial eventually ends for most of us and we have to deal with the other aspects/stages of grief for what we have lost. Acceptance is always the final stage. Some of us may not get there, but that (in my opinion) is the goal for all of us. It's especially important that we learn to accept ourselves "warts and all."

[JustPeachy]

I agree that some of these judgments are plain silly, but some people I know who are wise, educated, good-hearted and very just, feel that giving up your own flesh and blood is heartbreaking.

It is heartbreaking. And very hard. And people are uncomfortable talking about these things, for sure. It's not unlike when you are mourning a death and grieving and want to talk about it and other people don't know what to say or are very uncomfortable with the subject matter. That is one thing. Making harsh judgements about a bmom or feeling that a bmom should be ashamed or that making an adoption plan is a shameful thing is another that I just don't understand.

I used feminist ideas on motherhood to justify my choice/not choice. I was in denial at the time, numb and didn´t even think about bonding with my daughter. Now I´m not so sure about all this. I love being a fostermother, and I love being a first/natural mother to my daughter. That´s all I know and I really want to fight against the stigma.

I bonded very strongly with my son, both prior to delivery and after. I, too, love being a first mother to my son. I'm very proud of it, and of him, no question. And I totaly agree with you, it's important to fight against the stigma. Just to be clear, I don't justify my choice to make an adoption plan on feminst theories of motherhood, but I feel that those theories are certainly useful and something to consider in fighting the stigma that bmoms face.

I often wonder if adoption wasn't seen as a woman going against her true nature, or that bmoms are cold and unfeeling, lacking in maternal instincts, or immature, irresponsible, heartless, etc. (labels that also get put on other women who go against the status quo, such as those who forego children altogether), but embraced as a valid choice, if we were celebrated instead of scorned, would we suffer so much, you know? Yes, we'd still feel a loss, and have grief, but if we were welcomed in society, allowed to grieve openly, had support for this grieving and not shamed into silence, perhaps much of the pain would be diminished or eliminated. But instead we are punished for not doing what women are "supposed to do" in keeping and raising our babies. These attitudes are just infuriating to me.

[Liliana31]

Originally Posted by kakuehl

When I began my reunion with D, I decided that it was not going to be secret from anyone. It's amusing to watch people trip their way around it. I simply treat it as a matter of fact. It will be interesting to see what it happens as I seek a new call.

We haven't gotten very far from the Victorian age when young men were expected to "sow their wild oats" before marriage and women were divided as "good" girls who were virgins when then married or others (who were spoken of only in whispers).

Kathy,

Are you a vicar? I notice you mention a new call. English is not my first language.

If so, good for you! I wish I had your ease about this stigma we are all talking about here. I don´t. I had to work twice as hard to suceed in a very male dominated academic career and I accepted that. It´s just reality.

While reading your story, I noticed you have faith. It must help you a lot. I´m a mixture of many beliefs and I believe in a Higher Power, but I don´t go to church and have no such support. My AA group is closed and we don´t do Bible studies. I do love theology though and love to mix with the professors in theology now and again. I teach art and philosophy.

Love,
Liliana

[Liliana31]

Originally Posted by JustPeachy

I bonded very strongly with my son, both prior to delivery and after. I, too, love being a first mother to my son. I'm very proud of it, and of him, no question. And I totaly agree with you, it's important to fight against the stigma. Just to be clear, I don't justify my choice to make an adoption plan on feminst theories of motherhood, but I feel that those theories are certainly useful and something to consider in fighting the stigma that bmoms face.

I often wonder if adoption wasn't seen as a woman going against her true nature, or that bmoms are cold and unfeeling, lacking in maternal instincts, or immature, irresponsible, heartless, etc. (labels that also get put on other women who go against the status quo, such as those who forego children altogether), but embraced as a valid choice, if we were celebrated instead of scorned, would we suffer so much, you know? Yes, we'd still feel a loss, and have grief, but if we were welcomed in society, allowed to grieve openly, had support for this grieving and not shamed into silence, perhaps much of the pain would be diminished or eliminated. But instead we are punished for not doing what women are "supposed to do" in keeping and raising our babies. These attitudes are just infuriating to me.

I really think that is the case! We are thought to be cold, lacking in maternal instincts, everything you say. If we could grieve openly. Not being shamed into silence. That is so true. That is what makes me angry as well. It has a lot to being a woman, I´m sorry to say, because I have to prove myself many times over in my career, even swallow it when a man is promoted with less qualification than me. And men are terrified of mothers who renounce their godgiven role. Don´t forget that religion comes a lot into it. Madonnas and the Holy Mother are still the most important women figures in society. My male coworkers still look away when I tell them I believe in women´s right to choose.

I am beginning to realize I didn´t have much choice at the time, Kathy. I feel I´m at a stage in my life where something is about to burst inside of me, some kind of breakthrough, and it has to do with what I went through and the difficulty of coming to terms with the adoption.

Someone very wise said in one of the threads here that our role as birthmothers is not to cater to childless couples. But that is how I feel right now and have always felt. I was in fact a "breeder" for a childless woman past childbirth and believe me, she treated me like scum and told me I was scum. Please understand that I just learned my daughter was mentally abused by this woman.

Love,
Liliana

Love,
Liliana

[kakuehl]

Originally Posted by Liliana31

Kathy,

Are you a vicar? I notice you mention a new call. English is not my first language.

If so, good for you! I wish I had your ease about this stigma we are all talking about here. I don´t. I had to work twice as hard to suceed in a very male dominated academic career and I accepted that. It´s just reality.

While reading your story, I noticed you have faith. It must help you a lot. I´m a mixture of many beliefs and I believe in a Higher Power, but I don´t go to church and have no such support. My AA group is closed and we don´t do Bible studies. I do love theology though and love to mix with the professors in theology now and again. I teach art and philosophy.

Love,
Liliana

I am an ordained Lutheran pastor (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). I too am in a male dominated profession (LOL). As one man at the interview I had before I was called to my current parish said, "We've been here since 1814 and we never had a woman pastor yet." I am a person of faith and I do what I do because I believe that's what God calls me to do. I see myself as a pastor who is a woman, not as a woman who is a pastor.

About the stigma, I think it helps that I believe in God's unconditional love and forgiveness. Those who are people of faith are usually (not always) more accepting than those who aren't. I think it helps that I have forgiven myself for my inability to be perfect. And that I was loved and supported by my family.

I enjoy talking theology (philosophy is a different matter). Feel free to pm me anytime (or IM or email me). Occasionally someone gets a Bible study thread going.

[Janeytwo]

Hey there! :-)

I often wonder if adoption wasn't seen as a woman going against her true nature

I too have thought this so many times over the years. You know, I am thinking back on the ways that society prepared us for our role in womanhood. Do you remember that game...uhmmm...what was it called? The Dating Game, I think was the name of it. Where every girl tried to pick the perfect husband and we all hoped we didn't get the "loser guy". Yikes!! What a horrible game!! Yet we played it, my friends and I, with relished abandon; all hoping for the prince who'd take care of us. All pitying our friend who ended up with the "loser guy". And remember what a scummy schmuck he looked like! Tsk. The messages....grow up, marry a prince, stand behind him obediently, be the silent respectful power behind the throne!

I feel sorry for the guys too because how does one live up to the expectations of being a prince when really a person is only human?

And forever behind all of that; the "white picket fence". We'd spend hours me and my friends talking about what kind of home we'd have and what our husbands would do for a living and what our children's names would be.

Sigh....set up from the get go I think.

I am hoping it is different for my youngest but since I try not to eavesdrop on her conversations with her friends I guess I really don't know. I will just have to hope things have changed.

As I said to someone the other day, "at least my daughter doesn't have to suffer through a Home-Economics class".

Remember those! Yuch!

[quote]But instead we are punished for not doing what women are "supposed to do" in keeping and raising our babies. These attitudes are just infuriating to me.[quote]

Yes. And for those who haven't walked a mile in our shoes, sometimes I'd like to have them sit inside my heart and mind for just a moment and see what it has been for us. And I don't mean that in a self-pitying fashion. It's just that I think it would help people to see that we love our children if they could be in our position for just one moment.

The Sword of Damocles.

Hugs to ya Peachy! You're awesome!

Janey

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
Then you really might know what it's like to have to choose.
Everclear

[Jackiejdajda]

Liliana31

This is my dilemma. I´m angry at this stigma and since I´m a published author, I´m thinking of writing about this experience and publish it... when her adoptive mother, who is sick and elderly, is gone. Maybe that will help some women in the long run.

I was with my psychologist today and we discussed the issue of forgiveness and my anger. I realized in this session that my main anger is against the adoptive mother.

I found my anger against myself.. How could I have let him go? Why didn’t I fight?
Its what cuts a person off at their knees in some ways.. questioning and being angry with the self all power gone..
Doubt and self hatred at the forefront..

I wrote this on the back cover of my Artist Way book.. Julia Cameron..

I do not know where I found it..

The divine in me honors the divine in you.. and allows me to forgive the human in you as well as the human in me.


The human in me.. I am reading a book about a time when everything stops.. no power no anything.. and humans have to deal with life as it is or was eight hundred years before..

S.M. Stirling's trilogy "Dies the Fire",

From Wikipedia

Dies the Fire is the first installment of the Emberverse series and chronicles the struggle of humanity to survive in the first decade following "The Change," a sudden worldwide event that alters physical laws so that electricity, gunpowder and most forms of high-energy-density technology no longer work. As a result, modern civilization comes crashing down.


If one is clear and does not blame (and I think this is what the author is after) one adapts.. and gets on with it..
In reunion I think this is very important.. IMO taking what is going down to somewhere else diverts and takes ones power away.. and hence survival is kind of dicey.. standing in ones truth and feeling solid in self after having done the work of forgiveness of self... one sees the other person in their map of the world and acts accordingly..

My therapist told me that it was normal for me to be angry at the adoptive mother. "Each person has a normal degree of selfishness which is basically human," she said, "and for most mothers it’s normal to be selfish enough to want to care for her own children, her offsprings, not seeing them in another woman´s arms." She wanted me to reflect on this psycological statement to help in my process of forgiving myself.

The truth is the truth.. I made a decision (yes I had some help) that is a done deal.. its past and its not right now..
Acknowledging our anger.. yes.. expressing it yes.. Yelling our anger and feeling the pain yes..
But to me its something we travel through and come out the other side of..

Jackie

[JustPeachy]

You know, I am thinking back on the ways that society prepared us for our role in womanhood. Do you remember that game...uhmmm...what was it called? The Dating Game, I think was the name of it. Where every girl tried to pick the perfect husband and we all hoped we didn't get the "loser guy". Yikes!!

OMG Janey!!! It was called "Mystery Date." I even remember the words to the song...

Mystery Date
Are you ready for your Mystery Date?
Open the door... for your...
Mystery Date!

There was the little plastic door in the middle of the board, and the guy's pictures and "stats" were on cards. Every girl wanted to get the popular college jock or the handsome guy with the fabulous profession, but NOT the dreaded dud (and I think he was actually referred to as "the dud"). And wasn't there also a guy called "the hick" or something like that? Terrible!

Such messages, not only to young girls, but the guys, too. And to think, we as girls LOVED to play this game, but I think it had the opposite effect on me. I always went for the bad boys IRL.

[Janeytwo]

Hey JustPeachy!

but I think it had the opposite effect on me. I always went for the bad boys IRL

LOL! Me too Peachy! Me too! I think I was looking for my power in those guys; those rough guys. But I was too young to see that all those guys did was get power by taking it.

Still, they had an allure - there was no denying it.



Hugs to ya!

Janey