[kakuehl]

If I had a friend who had done this, I would feel sorry for her with all my heart, but I would ask myself: Why? What in the world happened and made her do it?

Dear Liliana,
There are as many reasons as there are people involved. I can only speak for myself. My parents had the resources and would have helped me while I finished college. I was not coerced or manipulated into placing. If you read my story (see link) you will see most of my reasons. In my case, there was no need to forgive the father. It was myself I had to deal with and live with. I had to forgive myself for getting pregnant in the first place and I had to forgive myself for placing him. It took a while. My parents helped by continuing to love me unconditionally. (I firmly believe in God's love and forgiveness as well.)

As I stated earlier, none of us is perfect. I believe every person has a deep secret they don't want others to know something that they believe would make others treat them differently. (Unless they're arrogant enough to believe they do nothing wrong.)

I do know that for a long time I put up a wall that basically said, you can come this close but no closer to me. I also told everyone I got close to about D... I never wanted to be a friend under false pretenses.

D and I have talked some. He has come to understand I think, how much I love him. He told me not to long ago, that I'd made the right decision. (I just happened to think... he's currently dealing with 3 children 3 and under. I wonder if that reality has affected his thoughts about his own adoption...I'll have to ask him.)

Try to remember that you did what you believed at the time you had to do. Second guessing doesn't help. Be kind to that young girl who was you. Remember that you are probably a more mature and hopefully wiser person than you were then.

[BrockBaby]

Liliana...as I read your posts and the responses from the wonderful people here, my heart went out to you. Your pain is so obvious, and I know we all wish that we could take it away from you in an instant, but we can't. And it won't go away instantly either. (boy I wish it would for all involved!) But I see such hope in the fact that you are here, that you are sharing, that you are bringing up those feelings, fears, thoughts, ideas, and pain that have been buried in you for such a long, long time. Once things are out in the open, they start to lose some of their grip on us. We begin to see that we aren't the only ones with these feelings, ect. That perhaps we are "normal" in the way we feel...that others have gone through the same types of things...and have healed to certain points. That is where the hope lies. That there can be healing. Does healing mean that it "takes it away"? Absolutely not. Healing to me, means that we can begin to see things differently...that we learn that choices and consequences and things that we've done in the past or had done to us...that they don't have to have the same hold on us that they use to. That they don't define who we are today. Yes, you will always be a bmom...I will always be an adoptee...but we don't have to allow that "title" to define who we are, how we see ourselves. For example..I use to see myself as "unwanted" "thrown away". Was that the truth?! Or was that just the way that I saw it myself?! Was it the way that I let "others" make me feel?? It's the same with you, my dear. How do YOU see yourself?!?! It doesn't matter as much how others see you...because there will ALWAYS be someone, somewhere, who is going to try to put "their issues and judgements" on you. What you have to come to terms with, is how YOU see YOU. A THOUSAND people could tell me, and have...that I wasn't "thrown away"..but until I believed it for myself....it didn't matter to me what they said. For you...until you can believe it for yourself, what we can clearly see in your posts...that you are WORTHY, that you are LOVABLE...that you are a BEAUTIFUL person who has MUCH to offer...it won't matter what we think. It matters what YOU think! And once you can start believing those things, and stop judging yourself....it won't matter what others say. Because YOU will know the truth!!!!

I am not sure I was able to make it clear what I was trying to say. But, basically, my hope for you is that you can see that you are a beautiful, caring, compassionate person...who needs to believe that for yourself...so that it won't matter what others "think, feel or say" about you!

Keep posting...keep getting those deep feelings out...

[JustPeachy]

I don't know if this is accurate, but Liliana, it seems to me you have internalized the shame of the rape, the shame put upon you by society at that time, and the shame of other people's judgements. I am not sure if, with drinking and using drugs, that was shame-based, either, but it is not uncommon for people who struggle with alcoholism/substance abuse to have shameful feelings about this, too.

Even if you were drunk/high, it is still not your fault you were raped. Why do you continue to blame yourself?

What does your therapist say about how you can begin to forgive yourself?

As for other people's reactions, I say to heck (but I would use a much stronger word!) with them. I also think it is important to come to a place where you can own what happened to you. A decision was made that you regret, and it was, in your case, an ill-informed decision, and colored by social mores at that time, but it happened nevertheless. I assume you were under age and your parents also had a strong say in this. Perhaps, had you kept and raised your daughter, she and you would have been scorned terribly, or ostracized completely, or judged much more harshly than you are now. There is no telling how it would have turned out, so I don't know if it is helpful to look at where you are now with the child you are raising under completely different circumstances, and a whole different place in life, and compare it to how it may have been back then as a teen under your particular circumstances.

They say depression is anger turned inward. I'm wondering if you were able to express at all any anger at what happened to you. Maybe if you can get in touch with your anger, and process it in a safe/healthy manner, you can start to forgive yourself.

Anyway, I'm glad you are here to share your story and that you are able to talk about it. I know it is not always easy to open up about these things, especially if you were never encouraged to do so, or your culture/society was not supportive of such open communication.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Liliana,

I'm finding I have a little xtra time today and wanted to keep up with this thread as I relate so much to what you've been saying.

I like what JustPeachy wrote: Even if you were drunk/high, it is still not your fault you were raped. Why do you continue to blame yourself?

There is a truth behind that question. I suspect (though I don't know you so it's only a feeling) but I suspect that like me, you are afraid of the grief because it is so terribly great you believe you might not come back from it. If this is the case, I sympathize completely. Though I now see that before I began to grief I was a vampire of a kind; I had no reflection as I couldn't truly see myself and I spent my time in the darkness in a silent coffin. :-(

In relation to AA (following my train of thought )......you wrote:

I´ve been a member of AA for 22 years, and one of the things I learned there was to take responsability for my life and for my actions.

Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

I found for myself in recovery that the person at the top of my Step 8 list was none other than myself. I had always been quick to forgive every other person but there was no such compassion for me from me, if you know what I mean. This kept me down and as Martin so sagely said, "You can't keep a man down without staying down with him."

And so in saying to myself that "yes, this happened to me!" I am taking responsbility because I am coming to see that there were reasons for my actions. Not excuses mind you. I don't offer those to myself. Where others used drugs as an anesthesia I used sex. That's the truth of it. And you know that rough little street teen Janey that I was hated sex but it was a way to be liked by guys if only for a very short time. :-(

And I was so so very young and this was all I knew.

We each of us fall in desparate times and the trick is not only to pick ourselves back up (which you seem to have done in an excellent way) but also to forgive ourselves for that fall.

Much friendship your way today,

Janey

Don't let the past remind us of what we are not now CSNY

[Liliana31]

Dear Kathy, BrockBaby, JustPeachy, Janey and all you good people who have been sending me support and warmth today and yesterday.

I feel the need to explain things a bit better. I guess I sound vulnerable - I´m ill in bed right now - and angry. I have spent a lot of time dealing with that anger and finding ways of transforming it into something worthwhile. I used it´s energy to build a wonderful career, raising my adoptive daughter, getting my own property and working on different projects.

I read your story, Kathy. Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I felt deep pain when I read you held your son. I think it must have helped you were dating your husband at the time. My two husbands were scornful when I told them, and blamed everything that went wrong on the adoption. Each time I met a man who wanted more than friendship, he pulled away when he learned of my story. Again, I don´t blame them. It takes a very special person to be willing to get involved with someone who has that kind of emotional baggage.

JustPeachy, you should have known me some years ago. I was deeply depressed and didn´t allow anyone to come near me. I lived for my work, but with the help of AA and my psycologist, I managed to start a new life, raise my cousin, started to have a good social life, friends and travel all over the world. I feel I am basically a happy person. I am definately struggling with this emotional issue and it´s hard.

I use to internalize my shame and I hated everyone who was involved. I don´t feel I do it now with one exception: I cannot accept what the woman who took my baby did to me and my family.

I am not saying rape is justified. Never. I´m just being realistic. I was drinking and using drugs and therefore putting my life at risk many times. There is a cause and effect and acknowledging my responsibility made me stronger. I stopped being a victim. I learned self-defense and I learned to take responsability for my actions. When I worked in Bosnia for a while, men tried to rape me and one almost managed, but I could defend myself and I became stronger for it.

Though I now see that before I began to grief I was a vampire of a kind; I had no reflection as I couldn't truly see myself and I spent my time in the darkness in a silent coffin. :-(

I love what you said here, Janey. I was a vampire too and lived like one. I don´t think I do that anymore, at least not to that extent.

My therapist is suggesting that I imagine myself as a young girl (I was sixteen when I was raped) and hug her, talk to her, write letter to her and connect with her. I´m doing that, but it´s hard. I refused to acknowledge her for such a long time. She keeps telling me to continue to bloom, bloome through my works, my adoptive daughter and my daughter.

What matters is the final outcome. I have come to terms with not being able to forgive myself - for the time being.

The anger inside is now directed at the woman who took my baby and was not good to her. I´m also dealing with the stigma of being a birthmother and although it is unjust, it is real. People should prepare birth mothers for being judged. I wish it wasn´t so, but unfortunately, that is just reality and they need to be prepared for that. It´s part of it too. It has also affected my siblings, my cousins and it almost destroyed my parents. I don´t take on the whole responsability, but the lion´s share is at least mine.

Brockbaby, thanks for your kind words. And thanks, all of you.

Love,
Liliana

[Liliana31]

Originally Posted by JustJennNM

I was struck by this comment...it seems very harsh. I realize in your circumstance things were different, and were/are hurt by what happened but that does not mean that those that choose adoption for their children are horrible people because they do not meet your standards of imminent death, illness or severe poverty.

But I do hope your reunion goes well for you. Best of luck!

Just JennNM,

I know this sounds harsh, but my particular experience was negative and I do know that adoption can have a dark side. I was told a bunch of lies by the woman who took my baby and the social workers and the people from the adoption agency were just manipulative and broke all promises made to me. I don´t think the birth mother matters much in comparison with the adoption market where money comes into it.

Please know I´m not judging anyone who chooses to give her baby up for adoption. My opinion is based solely on my experience and I know some other women who had a similar experience. I feel that the separation between the child and the birth parents is unnatural and I don´t think adopted children should have to give up their names and everything sealed, because it makes their birth parents look like breeders and nothing else.

It´s great if some birth parents want that for the sake of anonymity, but in my case, I didn´t want to. I think that should be an agreement between the mother and the adoptive parents. Maybe the adoption process has changed. When I adopted my cousin, this was never a question, but if her mother would be alife, she would be her real mother and referred to as such.

Love,
Liliana

[kakuehl]

Liliana, I'm struck by your comment about how people judge birthmothers. (I used to laugh, btw, when I would tell someone about D and they would ask if DH knew: 1 - Why would I tell them if I hadn't told my husband; and 2 -- I would immediately picture John driving me to my parents' home while I was in labor and sick as a dog.) While it is true that some people judge bmothers harshly, those same people also often judge single mothers harshly. (They get accused of having children to "milk" the system; of being promiscuous, etc.) It's really a no win situation!

[Liliana31]

It´s interesting, Kathy.

Thankfully in Scandinavia, single women are not looked down on. They are not accused of milking the system, because most of them work full time and are proud of caring for their children alone. Some need to be on welfare for awhile and that´s fine. I´m a single fostermother myself and work full time. I´m respected for that but not for being a birthmother.

There has always been respect for single mothers here, even a while back, but I´m beginning to think the prejudices against birthmothers are worse here then in the States. Just a feeling, though. We are so few and most people adopt from Asia, Africa and South-America.

Love,
Liliana

[quantum]

I'm so glad you've come here Liliana. I've been struggling with being a birthmother here and wondering if the feelings I was getting were just perceived, but you're right.
I don't really talk about it because it just seems like it never happens here.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Everyone,

I'm looking at the last 3 entries by Kathy, Liliana and Quantum and I'm thinking, it's a friggin crying shame really that women still are forced by society to have to debate all of this stuff and/or quantify their positions.

If you live in one country and you're a single mom, you're welfare scum. If you live in another country and you're a bmom, you're child abandoning scum. What the f**k century is this anyway!!!?

I have 2 questions...........Why is it only WOMEN who have these labels attached to us? I mean it's not like some dude's "equipment" for lack of a better word flew off his body and impregnated us of its own accord. No offense to the men here. I respect you greatly but really, it's the dang truth with how society acts.

Question #2...... If women don't change the BS rules in question #1 who's going to change them?

Yeah exactly. That's why when I see hostility between aparents and bparents in here, it sets my teeth to edge. Harem politics people...that crap has to go!!!

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

Liliana31

I know forgiveness is vital. I forgave the rapist long time ago. I don´t think I can forgive myself. How do I even begin?

It’s the way out of this..

I did a lot of inner child stuff a while back and I had to deal with a part of me that was very angry.. and was thinking I was letting all of it go including me.. I had to learn how to put up boundaries and how to say no..
Protect myself when I am vulnerable.. when someone is saying.. “How could you do that?”

Tell them go no further here or you will see the back of me..

Finding personal power.. by standing solid in me..

We do the best we can in this life..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

Question #2...... If women don't change the BS rules in question #1 who's going to change them?

Thats why support in places like this is so darn important.. You are power woman.. and others find that power.. and then I am power woman and so on and so on..

We were all cut off from each other..

Jackie

[BrockBaby]

If women don't change the BS rules in question #1 who's going to change them?

Something hit me as I read that. If we want change..then we have to change the way we are as well. We have to let go of the feelings that others are judging us...and stick up for what we know is right. Instead of saying "well they think this..they think that..." Change THEIR minds about it!!!! Show them something different. Educate them. Cowering in the corner, holding on to shame....gives them the "ammunition that they are looking for to prove their point. But, being as Jackie said, a power woman...will make them step back and take notice that the "ideas" that they had were wrong.

[Liliana31]

You are so wonderful, all of you.

I´m also glad I found this place. It will help me to build up the contact with my daughter and introduce her to all this people in my life, who scorns birthmothers. Unfortuately I´m talking about members of my own family and I dread the moment I have to tell my adoptive daughter that I gave my own child and she has a sister/cousin who is thirty years old.

This is my dilemma. I´m angry at this stigma and since I´m a published author, I´m thinking of writing about this experience and publish it... when her adoptive mother, who is sick and elderly, is gone. Maybe that will help some women in the long run.

I was with my psychologist today and we discussed the issue of forgiveness and my anger. I realized in this session that my main anger is against the adoptive mother.

I know my case is extreme - but I know a young woman who gave her son for adoption some years ago when adoptions became open. Mine was closed and I was denied all contact with my daughter. I couldn´t even get one photo of her. No contact - and then I hear my daughter was mentally abused by this woman and suffered!

But are the so called open adoptions any better? This young woman I mentioned was like a hand maiden to the adoptive parents. She was always running over to them to give her own breast milk to feed the baby she had given to them. They couldn´t even have the decency to pick her up. She was poor and defenseless, totally manipulated by the adoptive parents and served her own child in their home. After the breast-feeding the contact between the adoptive parents and her started to fade - she was not useful anymore - so they made her feel unwanted.

This almost destroyed her. She is picking up the pieces after a long breakdown. It reminds me of the most scary film I ever saw: "The Handmaiden´s Tale". In a biblical, totalitarian society, fertile women become breeders for married, infertile women who hold all the power. Check it out if you like, but go slowly. It´s not for the fainthearted.

When I think of this young woman, I keep thinking about the powerful text I read the other day on another thread here: Things I Wish I Knew When I Was Considering Adoption, by Heather Lowe. Here are some extracts:

5. I wish I'd known that those who might say they are there to help you are in actuality serving the real client, the prospective adoptive parent. Please don't go to an adoption agency or a pregnancy counsellor thinking that they have only your interests in mind. They do not, and they cannot. Adoption agencies, like it or not, have to make money to operate. The paying client is the adoptive parent, and services are usually geared toward them. There is a real conflict of interest if an agency is counselling you on whether to pursue an adoption or not. It's the rare agency that can tell a woman,"You shouldn't be thinking about adoption" when they have waiting lists of hopeful parents that are seven years long.

During the time of your decision-making, you need unbiased advice from someone who is not a stakeholder in the outcome. Free pregnancy counselling is sometimes available through crisis pregnancy centers (but watch out--the center could be affiliated with an adoption agency or a religious group.) If you can afford to see a therapist on your own, do it. Look for one that is skilled in adoption issues. If you cannot afford to see a therapist, use one of the email addresses provided to put you in touch with a first mother who is living adoption, and who can tell you honestly what it is like. Don't rely on first mothers who speak on behalf of agencies for all your information. Sometimes these women are stuck in denial and will only tell you about the happy side of adoption. Get the full range of viewpoints, happy and sad.

7. I wish I'd known that numerous internet resources exist for first mothers and potential first mothers to find each other and talk. Next to reading dozens of books about adoption, the single best thing you can be doing right now is talking to actual first mothers. (The next most important thing is talking to adult adoptees. Unfortunately, many potential first parents wind up talking only to prospective adopters.) The internet is the easiest, fastest way to find triad members. At the end of this document are listed addresses for web sites, mailing lists, and newsgroups. Use them!

8. I'm glad I did know that in most states, open adoption agreements are not legally enforceable. Many women choose adoption based on the promise of openness, only to have their trust violated when the adoptive parents become fearful. It is vitally important to know that in all but seven states, there is nothing that holds adoptive parents to anything that they say prior to the adoption. If you are lucky enough to live in California, Indiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Mexico, Oregon, or Washington, you have some recourse, but otherwise, you're out of luck. (A bill is pending in New York.)

There are dozens of variations of betrayal in open adoption, depending upon the level of openness that was initially agreed upon. Sometimes the adoptive parents stop sending the promised pictures, sometimes they go so far as to change their names and move to another state. Most frequent is a cessation of the promised visits.

When you surrender your right to parent your child, you become a legal stranger to him. You have as much claim to your baby as any person walking down the street--that is, none.

This was true in my case and for most birtmothers who are not in denial. It also helps to understand why we are "second rate" and carry this society´s stigma.

Can the relationship between birthmothers and adoptive parents be healthy and equal? If someone has one, I would very much like to know about it. I have heard of very few healthy ones but I would like to know if you do.

My therapist told me that it was normal for me to be angry at the adoptive mother. "Each person has a normal degree of selfishness which is basically human," she said, "and for most mothers it´s normal to be selfish enough to want to care for her own children, her offsprings, not seeing them in another woman´s arms." She wanted me to reflect on this psycological statement to help in my process of forgiving myself.

I will get another one to reflect on next week.

I am still thinking about how do stop the BS. One thing I know and that is we need to stick together. Finding personal power, like Jackie said. But I´m still reflecting on why women get all the stigma, not the men. Will report later on that, Janeytwo.

Some food for thought?

Love,
Liliana

[JustPeachy]

Originally Posted by BrockBaby

Something hit me as I read that. If we want change..then we have to change the way we are as well. We have to let go of the feelings that others are judging us...and stick up for what we know is right. Instead of saying "well they think this..they think that..." Change THEIR minds about it!!!! Show them something different. Educate them. Cowering in the corner, holding on to shame....gives them the "ammunition that they are looking for to prove their point. But, being as Jackie said, a power woman...will make them step back and take notice that the "ideas" that they had were wrong.

I think this is so true, but also, sometimes people who make those ignorant judgements are so dense, no amount of educating them will work. I think it's important, in those cases, to try and let it roll off you as much as you can, and realize it's not you, it's them.

What I've also come to realize, in pondering some more this whole judgement issue, is that in my situation, those who have judged me most harshly often seemed oddly jealous of my choice, or were projecting some of their own dissatisfaction with their own life choices onto me. I can remember friends, for instance, who had unplanned pregnancies who kept their children and were really struggling and unhappy. I think they thought I was somehow "getting off scot free" by placing. I've also noticed people in bad marriages or who are not fulfilled by parenting also lash out more. Maybe they feel they are "stuck" and how dare I "get away with" not having to step to the plate and do my "duty" (espeically as a FEMALE) to do whatever it takes to keep and raise my baby. I think this gets to the reason why it's the women who are so scorned and not the men. Men can impregnate women and walk away without much consequence. Oh, they may be called "deadbeat dads" or something, but there is also that "boys will be boys" mentality and that it is in their nature to "cat around." He's not expected to be the nurturer. Women, OTOH, are supposed to "naturally" want babies, and sacrifice themselves to their children without hesitation, no matter the circumstance, and whether or not you are ready to parent. So if you dare go against the status quo (and making an adoption plan is doing just that), society is going to come down hard on you.