[sstuart]

I am so glad the two of you post on here so we can read it and not in a pm. I have always been the one that people think of as "heartless" because I am the one that does not necessarily think that death is a bad thing. I am a nurse and often I think death would be best. I often get told that that is "cruel" -I just don't think so. JMO

[sstuart]

Maybe I am "heartless" becuase I had my heart ripped out when I placed my DD.

[kakuehl]

I think it depends on how you understand life. Is it living when you have machines keeping your heart beating, your blood circulating, regulating your breathing, pumping nutrients into your body, removing waste? As a Christian I do not believe that life ends in death. Therefore death is not the worst thing that can happen to us.

I do not believe this attitude has anything to do with adoption. I grew up in a fairly medical family (Dad and brother are Drs; sister and daughter are nurses) and as a pastor I spend time in hospitals, when they are dying, etc. I mourn the death of those whom I love, but I can mourn without being paralized and like you, Stacey, I do not believe death is always a bad thing.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Kathy and Stacy! Hope you guys don't mind me answering you both on one post.


Kathy -

I do not believe this attitude has anything to do with adoption. I think it depends on how you understand life.

Sorry I scrambled that up a bit. (Invoking literary license! LOL!) :-)

You know Kathy, I'm glad you said this. Hope you don't mind me rambling...you know me...sort stuff through via gobble-dee-gooking! :-)

I thought about our conversation of the other day (about Karen Quinlan), I realized that happened at least 3-4 years before my babies.

So, maybe part of it's the old 'some are strong in some ways and others in others' argument. Like some friends of mine and I once were talking about what kind of cop we would be if we were cops. I remember saying that I would only want to work in Homicide. One of my friends said, "Are ya nuts?!" I think I replied something like dead people don't have any more problems. Something like that. I know couldn't be an Undercover. I wouldn't have the guts. Or a State Patrolman; I don't know how they handle what they must see.

Or like an ER nurse! Dealing with car accident victims and worse....No thanks! That job has to take some big brass ones!

But maybe that predisposition, you know, that ability to make the hardline choices and more important to learn to accept those choices; maybe that made us capable to decide to surrender our children.

Your thoughts (Kathy & Stacy)

Stacy

Thanks for the kudos! Oftentimes I'm unsure of my voice. It's good to know that others hear me. If you know what I mean.

Happy 4th to you guys!!!

May today bring you both (and your families) good food and good company!

Janey

[Janeytwo]

Hey Jackie!

[quote]I would fall in love with men that were impossible and thought this was love.. [quote]

Huh. I did this from the very start of my life. Before I knew - scratch that - before I understood who my father really was, I was in love with him. More than that, he was my god. A relentless god of terrible power to my little body. His beatings were merciless but what was worse was afterwards; the names he called me. "Filth" that one was the worst. "You're filth! Don't look at me!"

He had a firm line, the problem was no one ever knew when they'd cross it. Like with food; that was one his best excuses for abuse. It's funny....it took Todd 8 years to get me to eat my food like normal people; taking a bite of this; a bite of that in no particular sequence. Such a small and unnoticed thing to others, but a major advancement to my emancipation.

You see, in my father's house we had to eat our food counter-clockwise around our plate in a specific order. Vegetables, potatoes, meat. No exceptions. The food couldn't touch and taking even a small sip of milk before finishing our meal was an invitation to a beating.

Children were "seen and not heard". We were not allowed to speak. If we wanted more food, we had to put our fork to one side of our plate and our knife to the other side, put our hands in our laps and sit silently staring at the middle of the table, waiting to be asked if we'd like something more. If we were finished and wanted to be excused, our fork and knife would go directly in front of us on our plate and we'd sit there, hands in laps, staring straight ahead, waiting for my father to ask us if we'd like to be excused. Sometimes, he'd sit there for 10-15 minutes deliberately ignoring us.

That's the kind of men I fell for. Ones who were ruthless; ones with firm rules; ones with no trouble putting people in their perceived place.

It is heartbreaking to me that it took the loss of two of my children for me to break free from that.

I finally saw myself as a person detached from all of it.. A person that was harmed by others but able to learn how to heal

That's the thing I'm so grateful for; grateful to the wise and intrepid souls; like the old ones in Al-Anon and the women in here. The ones who've been beaten down; the ones who understand what loss is and yet they keep going and, more importantly, they keep learning.

There was a woman in Al-Anon (I'll call her N) who lost 4 children in 2 1/2 years. 3 of them died of cancer (they were all young - from 18 to 25). And the last one? Oh Jackie, this is the worst thing........ N's daughter was killed in a car accident coming back from the funeral of one of N's son's. THAT is the most tragic thing I've ever witnessed. And yet N kept coming to meetings, week after week, month after month. She kept coming in the hopes she could teach others but also learn herself.

Really, human beings are tremendous.

recovery of soul begins when we can take to heart our own family fate and find in it the raw material, the alchemical prima materia, for our own soul work

Yes. This is the goal; always the goal. The buck must stop with us and I did not want to be the one to pass my father's insanity on. But Jackie (tears as I write this), did I? Did I pass it on to my surrendered children? In my state of fear over my father, in the fall to mud, I got pregnant and had to surrender my children. They have suffered because of that. I mean, surely there's a part of their hearts that've been broken wondering why I didn't want them. How can I overcome that legacy?

I always felt like that patient etherised upon a table..unable to get up and grab ahold of life..

I missed the meaning of this the first time you wrote it to me. And I'm glad you rewrote it too. I have tried to put into words what it was like, in the street, pregnant, walking the darkness, starving. It was like this; like swimming through an etherized brain. My feet working, but my brain on "shut-off". Like a zombie in a bad voodoo flick. Like that.

because when we love ourselves we allow ourselves to become human and not detached.. Not unable to have feelings.. not unable to connect with that inner self that was brutalized when some of us gave our babies up and were not allowed to grieve

Nodding as I sit at my desk.

My mom made me stand and watch as she died.. and I did it..

The ways people punish us for their idea of weakness. It is so hard to get over that.

Now I know I will feel the appropriate emotions if I have to deal with a sick animal.. I will grieve.. I will actually feel the pain of grief.. what a thing..

I had been taught for years by my mother that people who cry at funerals were one of three things: hypocrits, self-pityers or weak. I think she must've gone into some kind of recovery herself because recently I actually saw her cry over the death of a friend. It was so anathma to whom I've known her to be that I looked at her and said, "What's your problem? What are you doing?" She looked at me and in that moment I could see that she was seeing herself as she's been. I almost could read her thoughts, "This is what I've taught my children to be."

That was a profound moment.

That is the task at hand..
How to give a baby (babies) up for adoption in secrecy and no grief work and come out of it whole.. and connected..

That is surely what a lot of us were asked to do. And when I think about it, that's sort of like asking an astronaut to take their helmet off in space and survive the job.

I can find the exact message where I posted that my bson had contacted me.. and the replies from my friends.. who I later got angry with and fought with.
Found my anger..

I was surfing in here yesterday and found a post from you regarding reunion. Thinks it's titled "Fed Up". I haven't read it yet but was going to today. Funny you should mention this. Synchronicity.

Thanks Jackie and much hugs your way!

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

Sstuart

Maybe I am "heartless" becuase I had my heart ripped out when I placed my DD.

Its human interaction gone bad.. to me.. it’s a lesson of no one really cares and besides you are guilty of behaving badly and this is the punishment.. deal with it..
The rules of a society that does not accept the human in us..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Children were "seen and not heard". We were not allowed to speak. If we wanted more food, we had to put our fork to one side of our plate and our knife to the other side, put our hands in our laps and sit silently staring at the middle of the table, waiting to be asked if we'd like something more. If we were finished and wanted to be excused, our fork and knife would go directly in front of us on our plate and we'd sit there, hands in laps, staring straight ahead, waiting for my father to ask us if we'd like to be excused. Sometimes, he'd sit there for 10-15 minutes deliberately ignoring us.

That's the kind of men I fell for. Ones who were ruthless; ones with firm rules; ones with no trouble putting people in their perceived place.

It is heartbreaking to me that it took the loss of two of my children for me to break free from that.

Not guilty.. not guilty as charged when someone says.. “How could you do that?”
Children need good nurture when they grow.. and if we can not give them good nurture then hands down its best to give them to someone that can.. it’s a life.. It’s a human life that is formed in the early years… lessons learned etc..

You came from a very very bad situation.. bad parenting..

When I finally got to meet my son I understood that I had sent him on to a life that he needed to have (supposed to have had).. An act of parenting.. and I know some women and men did not get the best of parenting but we do the best we can..

Janey I am so sorry you had the kind of childhood you had.. You are such a survivor.. I applaud your ability to overcome and sort what happened to you..
Never are you less than.. never.. You are beyond strong..

I wrote..
I finally saw myself as a person detached from all of it.. A person that was harmed by others but able to learn how to heal

That's the thing I'm so grateful for; grateful to the wise and intrepid souls; like the old ones in Al-Anon and the women in here. The ones who've been beaten down; the ones who understand what loss is and yet they keep going and, more importantly, they keep learning.

Its always day one.. Its always right now.. and the knowing in my heart of hearts that I can not go back and change.. anything.. is real important..
Detaching and letting myself fall into the ‘stuff’ of my past keeps me running in circles.. Keeps me engaged in the shadow part of me..

The next line in Prufrock.. is..

In the room the women come and go asking about Michelangelo..

Detached all..

There was a woman in Al-Anon (I'll call her N) who lost 4 children in 2 1/2 years. 3 of them died of cancer (they were all young - from 18 to 25). And the last one? Oh Jackie, this is the worst thing........ N's daughter was killed in a car accident coming back from the funeral of one of N's son's. THAT is the most tragic thing I've ever witnessed. And yet N kept coming to meetings, week after week, month after month. She kept coming in the hopes she could teach others but also learn herself.

Really, human beings are tremendous.
.

We humans are capable of so much.. And this is where my faith comes in.. and the acceptance of what we cannot change..

Letting that go.. letting that 'non acceptance' go and just living our lives.. there is such freedom in that..

Yes. This is the goal; always the goal. The buck must stop with us and I did not want to be the one to pass my father's insanity on. But Jackie (tears as I write this), did I? Did I pass it on to my surrendered children? In my state of fear over my father, in the fall to mud, I got pregnant and had to surrender my children. They have suffered because of that. I mean, surely there's a part of their hearts that've been broken wondering why I didn't want them. How can I overcome that legacy?

By seeing it from afar.. by seeing it from your now adult eyes and understanding life.. that things happen to all of us.. Sometimes beyond horrible things like the women that lost all of her children and what your dad did.. If we engage in the blame.. we are not really seeing what needs to be healed IMO.

We are going in circles and as my mom would say.. “Awe Jackie have a drink.”

What I wrote (above) about Moore.
IMO Moore wants a person to stand back and really see what went down.. not as a person reflecting themselves in a mirror.. Narcissus behavior..

We can become caught up in our reflection or our blame.. or any other thing that keeps us from the authentic work..

I wrote
I always felt like that patient etherized upon a table..unable to get up and grab ahold of life..

I missed the meaning of this the first time you wrote it to me. And I'm glad you rewrote it too. I have tried to put into words what it was like, in the street, pregnant, walking the darkness, starving. It was like this; like swimming through an etherized brain. My feet working, but my brain on "shut-off". Like a zombie in a bad voodoo flick. Like that.

When I finally got to the hospital weeks overdue.. my labor stopped again..
A nurse gave me a trank (hence my love of downers) and she pushed the bed against the window and turned out the lights..
Miami and the bay.. and the lights.. I was floating.. and I went into labor and started the next part of my life.

TS Eliot called the next part of his odyssey.. The Waste Land.. and Scott Peck says we all walk through life trying to sort and trying to learn and some people stop.. (your dad and his rage my mom and the booze.. etc..) and hide their heads in the sand and seek no further..

Peck quoted Benjamin Franklin..

These things that hurt instruct.

We learn.. if we are willing to learn if we are willing to stay in the moment and not reflect like that patient.. not stay in the past going in circles.. walking through fog.. it’s a fight..

I wrote..
That is the task at hand..
How to give a baby (babies) up for adoption in secrecy and no grief work and come out of it whole.. and connected..

That is surely what a lot of us were asked to do. And when I think about it, that's sort of like asking an astronaut to take their helmet off in space and survive the job.

Its an impossible thing to do.. We are feeling animals.. humans persons.. we need to be able to feel all our emotions..

And.. and… a child needs to learn how to do it.. how to put up boundaries by saying.. "No I won’t!"

And how to ask for help when something hurts.. and be in a calm place.. a place where nurture rules the day.
I did not get that and you did not get that.. but we did our best to make sure our kids got that.. and all we can do is our best..

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.. and I know if I had of brought my son into my parents home or tried to survive with him with no help.. he would have suffered.. he would not have had what I wanted him to have..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

sstuart

I am so glad the two of you post on here so we can read it and not in a pm.

I think we all can pass on what we have learned and folks can take what they want and leave the rest..

I hated the isolation..

No more..

Jackie

[JustPeachy]

The buck must stop with us and I did not want to be the one to pass my father's insanity on. But Jackie (tears as I write this), did I? Did I pass it on to my surrendered children? In my state of fear over my father, in the fall to mud, I got pregnant and had to surrender my children. They have suffered because of that. I mean, surely there's a part of their hearts that've been broken wondering why I didn't want them. How can I overcome that legacy

You did want them. But under the circumstances, you were not able to parent them. And seeing how your father treated you, can you imagine how it would have affected your babies if they were exposed to his abuse, too? No, I think your children would understand, Janey.

I also had a lot of craziness and major dysfunction in my family. I know I did a good thing by getting my son out of that environment, thus breaking the cycle.

I realize your situation was different and the decision to relinquish your children was made for you. But when I read about how controlling and abusive your dad was, how he called you "filth" and other horrible names, I can only imaging what he would do to your babies. Even if your children are broken up over being adopted (and we don't know this as fact), I feel if they knew of your circumstances, they would understand that you had no choice in the matter and you've always loved them and wanted them.

[kdecrow]

How far apart do you two live from one another??

I would love to see you become friends, you are soul sisters.

Kim

[Janeytwo]

Dear JustPeachy, Kim and Jackie,

Wow! Lots to respond to. Sigh...but work calls my name. I must go sacrifice myself answering phones at the Yacht Club. :-)

So I will answer everyone later.

Hugs to all you guys! You are awesome women!

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

JustPeachy
I also had a lot of craziness and major dysfunction in my family. I know I did a good thing by getting my son out of that environment, thus breaking the cycle.

Its my saving grace..
In time of doubt I will (our would) think.. “I could have done it”.. but it would have been terribly unfair to him.. I hated my childhood.. I was trying to get away from my parents.. but then I would go back..

I read in one of my Adult Children of Alcoholic books that the children of alcoholics look for the insanity of life after they leave home.. its all they know.. I know this was the case for me.. I married the drunk.. I married the one that was thrown out of bars when they closed..

Standing back and really looking at it I know I made the best decision.. running and forgetting was not a good decision but heck.. it was what I was taught to do.. and I do not blame me for this.. I accept..

Kim… If you mean me and Janey.. I think we are far apart.. I am in Canada.. Prince Edward County.. I live in paradise.. we have an acre of land and the birds wake me every morning.. Yesterday we saw a deer trying to cross the road.. a buck..
I love communicating via computer.. I love that I can come on in the morning and take my time and read and correspond..

Jackie